Oh Boy,dont want to stir things up,but its being advertised.

[Azrial 1,091]

Well I hope he makes a lot of money, because if he causes me to lose my shotgun I will be suing him.....

I am not trying to insult you but you have no clue about how the civil law works. There is no way that you could launch a successful lawsuit against a company that introduces a product that caused a future change in the law.

 

There is no direct relation between their introduction of a product, that is obviously inside the present law, and a future change that may, or may not occur in the law. Such a change would be due to the Congress, a State legislature, or some administrative rules change introduced by the BATF.

 

But, if you don't like what I have said here, I guess you you can sue for this as well.

[zakmatthews 14]

I would never waste my money on one. Shoot, its almost as expensive as the gun itself! It's probably insanely heavy and although its machined from aluminum, it looks like a stinkin' erector set was used to assemble it. I'd rather spend my money elsewhere.

[SuAside 2]

jezus H christ...

 

what an ugly & bulky mofo.

 

i guess it'll never be available in the EU, but hell, i'd never buy such a monster for a shotty (even if the price wasn't so high... come on, the drum costs as much as most people paid for their S12).

[davidsuffolk 96]

It's totally ironic that you guys who COULD buy one won't because you are all worried about the way it'll change the gun's status while all of us who aren't in the US and who could quite easily buy and use it without fear of any such problem are prevented by the US regulations which stop it being exported. Seems that in the end nobody will have one!

[whatmanual 44]

I "could" buy as many as I'd like if I was inclined. However, as I cited before, its simply doesnt appear practical nor economical compared to what alternative items I could deploy. Oh yeah...."slinging" a rifle/shotgun is much easier with a mag compared to a drum.

Anyway, at that price its purely a novelty item to me. If it was $100-150 I might consider it for fun purposes but not much more. I could see that price if it was adjustable to different shell lengths, modular or easy to retrofit for the Saiga-20 or the Saiga-.410 by changing some part etc. That might be worth it.

 

In my opinion, an investment of $300 to 500+ into ammo at this point is a better option. Or perhaps 10 AGP mags. Simple choice really: 19 rounds of 3" shell only or 100 rounds of whatever you like capacity? This is purely a case for "bang for the buck" that really glares out at me. And to be honest, I buy a great number of things for my safes.

 

 

As for the changes to the law or options the ATF has:

Simply stated, its a matter of waiting to hear/read what their actions are (not will or could be). Discussions at this point mean little.

Actual classification/official and ruling means much more. I personally hope -IF they go with some ruling", its the silencer/tax stamp route. That seems the most fair. Going full blown DD doesn't appear warranted to me and many others.

As for export rules...a great number of desired guns don't make their way to the US anymore for public sales. Sucks for us too.

 

 

Lastly, if I recall, Mike D. was making one as well.... I believe his estimate price was less than that.

 

 

 

 

 

~S

Edited April 16, 2007 by whatmanual

[gatorgunner 0]

I'd like to take this opportunity to offer to buy Saiga 12 shotguns from folks unfortunate enough to live in New York state.

 

Don't forget the unfotunate souls in Kalifornia.

[trukreltrog 8]

IMO its too big and expensive to be anything more than a novelty item. You can get 5, 10 rnders for that, almost 11 if there is a tax involved. Being limited to 3 inch shells also. I may be wrong but I think there should be some type of cover/window to keep debris out of the track the shells run in. That looks like it could cause jamming problems.

Edited April 16, 2007 by trukreltrog

[csspecs 1,987]

I am not trying to insult you but you have no clue about how the civil law works. There is no way that you could launch a successful lawsuit against a company that introduces a product that caused a future change in the law.

 

There is no direct relation between their introduction of a product, that is obviously inside the present law, and a future change that may, or may not occur in the law. Such a change would be due to the Congress, a State legislature, or some administrative rules change introduced by the BATF.

 

Oh my reason for suing does not need to be related.

 

We have been sued for someone that fell in a parking lot on the other side of the plaza and still had to go all the way with it. I am sure that he has a parking lot or other slippery surface, and or hot coffee . The possibilities are endless.

 

Also I will be the least of his problems if a change in the legal standing occurs, if the ATF starts demanding everyone hands in their guns someone is going to blame the cause of the problem not just the ATF.

 

I think you are the clueless one, the person that always feels that they can do what they want and that everyone else can just go screw themselfs if they don't like it.

 

I think the drum is somewhat cool and I hope that nothing happens as far as the legal standing of the saiga 12 goes.

Edited April 16, 2007 by csspecs

[Wakal 10]

Interesting. Overengineered, too big, too heavy, and...of course I'll buy one.

 

Looks like three main types of customers for these.

 

1. The "looks like fun" guys: something different!

 

2. Mouth breathers: "Ah need me one of dese to kill me da invaders lik day say in da mags and at da gun store where I gets me da tinfoil hats"

 

3. Gamers: "more bb's? Gimmie!"

 

 

Having been competing for years with a shotgun that takes 20-round drums, I can say without reservation that there have been few stages (comparatively speaking) where a 20 round drum was the ticket. However, it was nice to have at all the "outlaw" matches for those retarded 12 and 14 round speed shoots set up by people unable to conceive or build real stages. I see this drum for that purpose...stand and deliver sans reload. Of less utility than the Betas in AR's, but kept around for just the same reason

 

 

 

Alex

[davidsuffolk 96]

Interesting. Overengineered, too big, too heavy, and...of course I'll buy one.

 

Looks like three main types of customers for these.

 

1. The "looks like fun" guys: something different!

 

2. Mouth breathers: "Ah need me one of dese to kill me da invaders lik day say in da mags and at da gun store where I gets me da tinfoil hats"

 

3. Gamers: "more bb's? Gimmie!"

 

 

Having been competing for years with a shotgun that takes 20-round drums, I can say without reservation that there have been few stages (comparatively speaking) where a 20 round drum was the ticket. However, it was nice to have at all the "outlaw" matches for those retarded 12 and 14 round speed shoots set up by people unable to conceive or build real stages. I see this drum for that purpose...stand and deliver sans reload. Of less utility than the Betas in AR's, but kept around for just the same reason

 

 

 

Alex

 

We all have our own reasons. As one who got VERY odd looks from an upmarket clay pigeon club while using just a 5 round mag I would just love to go with one of those. Frankly it's worth going just for that. Just waiting for the black helicopters to be overhead.

 

As a little aside, my friend (who is even stranger than me) was the armourer for a number of local police forces and in that capacity he used to get all the weapons used in crimes to test fire etc. One particular gun was a double barrel shotgun with the barrels cut back to the foreend and just a pistol grip. He went to an even more snooty club with this thing in a full leg of mutton gun case. "Can I have a go" he says and when a clay flew he pulled this thing out and let both barrels go with Baikal ammunition (which if you don't have in the States is not only VERY noisy but even with full length barrels has a green muzzle flash about 6' long). I don't know if he hit anything but he did get thrown out........some people have no sense of humour!

[ArcFault 4]

I think Ill wait and see what Mike D comes up with.

 

I can understand if he is staying out of this conversation, but has Mike said that this isn't his?

[bernerz 11]

Two schools of thought here. One is to push the envelope, come what may. The second is to take precautions with every step. I wonder which will prevail. The anti-gunners are going to have a field day with the Virginia tech tragedy and they may find fuel with the introduction of a gigantic drum for a ak style shotgun. The other side of this is that there will always be wackos out there and we can't let their actions deprive us of our rights. Just my 2 cents I guess.

[frr 1]

Got a point there. Correct me if Im wrong, but I thought his was 20+1 not 19+1? Also his was quoted at quite a bit lower price. I guess its all speculation though until he weighs in on it.

I can understand if he is staying out of this conversation, but has Mike said that this isn't his?

[ArcFault 4]

Got a point there. Correct me if Im wrong, but I thought his was 20+1 not 19+1? Also his was quoted at quite a bit lower price. I guess its all speculation though until he weighs in on it.

I can understand if he is staying out of this conversation, but has Mike said that this isn't his?

 

I dunno, I think its odd that he hasn't, but the truth is I'm stayin out of this at this point. nuff said.

[dangerman 0]

Also I will be the least of his problems if a change in the legal standing occurs, if the ATF starts demanding everyone hands in their guns someone is going to blame the cause of the problem not just the ATF.

 

I think you are the clueless one, the person that always feels that they can do what they want and that everyone else can just go screw themselfs if they don't like it.

 

That's right, give the ATF a free ride and blame the citizens who obviously "provoked" the Government into doing this to us. As free men (and women), we have the right to build the nastiest guns ever devised, and have free use of them in any manner that doesn't harm any other person, (save a self-defense situation, but let's not split hairs). It is the ATF who is in the wrong, and the ATF which needs to be sued for infringement of our rights. I guess I am one of those aforementioned "clueless" people who believes that I shouldn't have to get a permission slip from my friendly Federal Hall Monitor to take a shit in my own bathroom. CSSSPECS, you are a Federal Quisling for even suggesting that if the Government infringes our rights and freedoms, that we should pillory the person who exercised those freedoms as a troublemaker. "Oh, my gawd, please don' make no waves, that Boss-man come down hard on us..."

If the ATF demands that I hand in my gun, I don't think I will have time or energy to take them to court......

 

 

Dangerman

[middlem2 0]

Wheres our board member that gave himself his own badge to call ATF on everyone? I'm suprised he has not chimed in here yet. Perhaps out scanning the neighborhood for jaywalkers or people mowing their lawns without hearing protection and safety glasses?

[dinzag 31]

We need 'em for zombie uprisings IMHO...

Who cares why we need them.

 

Why is it the USAS-12 clone isn't a DD and it takes 20 round drums???

AMEETEC WM-12

This is an Ameetec WM-12 semi-auto 12 gauge shotgun. Finished in OD Green and is a clone of the infamous USAS-12. Has picatinny rail on upper receiver for your optics. Also comes with two stick mags. Not a DD so it's available for immediate shipping to your FFL. (drum is NOT included but for sale for $600 with purchase of this firearm)

[trukreltrog 8]

We need 'em for zombie uprisings IMHO...

Who cares why we need them.

 

Why is it the USAS-12 clone isn't a DD and it takes 20 round drums???

AMEETEC WM-12

This is an Ameetec WM-12 semi-auto 12 gauge shotgun. Finished in OD Green and is a clone of the infamous USAS-12. Has picatinny rail on upper receiver for your optics. Also comes with two stick mags. Not a DD so it's available for immediate shipping to your FFL. (drum is NOT included but for sale for $600 with purchase of this firearm)

$600 bucks, Ouch! Maybe $320 is a bargain for a new drum.

[JK-47 33]

It never ceases to amaze me how many different pairs of hands scramble to grab what they all know is a very VERY HOT potato. I guess they all assume the last guy's scalded hands must have cooled it off a bit.

[bugeye 2]

[Kyndig 0]

A few thoughts...

 

1) IF (that's a big IF) the ATF makes some sort of ruling on it that is "semi" kind and makes it a stamp for the DRUM and NOT make the S12 a Destructive Device... I would want exact, precise, and verification prior to making any such investment.

 

2) the investment... $319 ..... Bullshit. To me, in my opinion, the cost is outrageous. Keep in mind that you (if the BATF is kind) will have to pay another $200 stamp for the mag. Of course, all this depends on knowing -for certain- what their EXACT stance will be on this.

It should be based on material, labor, shipping, licensing etc. Seems like gouging for Research and Development costs. Just sell me the spec. sheet template plans for do-it-yourself. Sorry, $519 +/- is far too high for any drum. Even for me.

 

3) practical? Having 1 in the gun for the first "load" would be ok. More than one? Well, I can't see it being practical. For example, in my right hip pouch (like a dump pouch size) I hold 6 of the 10 round AGP mags. I also "can" carry another 4 mags on my left side as well if I wanted. The mere size of this thing would probably take that pouch all by itself. ... Hmm, 19 rounds or 60 in the same amount of space -let alone assortment of ammo type benefits.

....So having "1" I could see.

 

4) Durability. Looks pretty darn solid. I would hope so too. If in a "SHTF" situation, I use the Russian mag change technique. Basically for those who don't know, its when you take the new mag out and "swipe" it forward knocking the empty mag out and then rock and lock the new one in....its real real fast -Especially on an AK-74 (and if you place a tracer at the 5th round, you know to swipe it out....just the change happens and you don't have to rack the bolt again). ANYWAY.... kicking that thing out in a hurry will mean its taking a digger. A mag can take it, and most other "drums" can too...I would hope this one can.

(Side note: "mags" are seen as disposable and not something to constantly placing into an actual dump pouch...while you're fumbling, Im "firing" -hence the technique is effective).

 

5) 3 inch shells. Well that sucks overall. Hopefully there will be a 2 3/4 version. Simply put, there's distinct advantages for both. Availability, cost, variety and effectiveness generally trends towards the 2 3/4 in my opinion though.

 

 

 

 

Overall, mixed feelings on it. There's a lot of unknowns there. I would say that IF they work with the ATF and can "only" sell it just like how other places sell siliencers (they wait for your Form 4 etc etc before they ship to your FFL only etc etc....stuff like that), then that adds clout to verification that its going through "acknowledged" channels -to some extent. The LAST thing anyone wants is a "well lookie what we have here Cleatus.... do you have a stamp for that silencer? Of course you do...Well do you have a stamp for this HI CAP DRUM? Looks like its over 5 (or 10 whatever) to me there fella, hands on the car please".

**Sad part is my bail (or bond) would probably be less than the drum as well lol.

 

Like I said. Mixed thoughts. Gouged price too (let alone knowing that it "might" mean another $200 more on top of it). I mean really, "$519+/-" could mean another 10 AGP mags (2 more pouches worth to me) or even another S12 and its conversion (self) -or another set of mags for it. Compared it to 19 rounds? A bit "high" for me I think on several important issues (cost only being 1 of them) -mainly #3 and #4 though. Because what matters is what will save your life -not how evil you look on the range. Ever have a bad feed? Much easier to remove a "mag" and lose the deformed shell casing and lock in again.

 

 

~S

 

If the ATF banned anything it would be the Saiga 12 which if you own one you would get a free tax stamp, they didn't ban drums for the streetsweeper I've seen many of those drums for sale and you didn't need a tax stamp to buy them.

[Franky 2]

Here's Mike's take. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...409&hl=drum

[akdog 3]

I guess I am one of those aforementioned "clueless" people who believes that I shouldn't have to get a permission slip from my friendly Federal Hall Monitor to take a shit in my own bathroom.

Dangerman

 

If it does indeed become a DD, you will legally have to fill out a nice permission slip( ATF form) and ask the Federal Hall Monitor real nicely "may I have permission to own this Sir." When you go and try to get a law enforcement sign off, you will once again be asking for permission from your local Hall Monitor. During the whole process, you might as well feel like your grabbing your ankles and whispering "be gentle with my sphincter Mr. ATF." All this provided your own state hasn't bitch slapped you out of such a warm experience by previously baning the NFA item you want.

No thanks, I won't be in line to validate a permission slip. I would rather torch my receivers and keep the parts to rebuild them on a virgin receiver. Clones are immune to the DD classification of the original. Problem solved. However, if the russians find out who screwed them over, someone may likely get a visit from a russian contract hit man.

 

News at Eleven: Local manufacturing facility was destroyed in a bizarre explosion and 3 people are missing.

Edited April 16, 2007 by dog

[whatmanual 44]

More musings...

 

 

Tragic that the Student Visa guy in Virginia shot 32 people and then himself. Please note, that he used a .22 and a 9mm pistol with plenty of mags.

 

All day I've listened to talk radio and did some various research on the matter. The overall concept is that it will NOT infringe on our 2nd Amendment rights.

In fact, the majority of discussions was: had the CCW laws been LESS restrictive it wouldve probably been a vastly different outcome. Sure, around town you are safe...you can carry there. Criminals, since they dont care about breaking the laws -you know, like murder, robbery and others- obviously will not care about carrying concealed illegally -let alone on a campus where the law restricts it. Hence the point made by several radio talk shows...and technically even the President when he spoke (concerning respect for our 2nd Amendment rights).

 

Statistics time and again prove that CCW holders follow the law more often than not. The whole premise to go through an ordeal to get the permit supports this thought. Simply put, criminals won't bother with paperwork. Take note on that -we all know it.

 

 

When tragic events such as this happen, we must keep in mind that there will be those who will want to pervert this into making the law abiding citizen the victim yet again. Its like when they argue that allowing more people to have a CCW will mean its more dangerous for the police....um, ok... name one time where a CCW holder has shot an officer on purpose. Please measure that in "how many incidents per 100,000". In fact, people that lose their CCW, lose it more often than not to something other than crime related (like drinking and driving or restricted area that they didnt know about). School rampages? Name one.

 

 

<breathe>.... a sad day there in Virginia. Perhaps some "good" will come of it though for us all.

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

As for the ATF and maybe making it a tax stamp on drums. Just providing an possible idea they could do (as someone mentioned earlier). The streetsweeper is a good example though....but not sure that the streetsweeper takes anything but those drums. So of course the point of banning the gun over the mag makes sense.

 

 

 

Long day at work. More later.

~S

[philg80 1]

Here is where I feel that we need to have every Saiga owner(Mike D, Cobra, and anyone else I haven't noticed was missing yet) back on this forum. Yes this is directed to you Bvamp!!!! I sit back and read and usually stay quiet, but now there is a DRUM available and Mike had nothing to do with this one and the guys that built it are not members of or have logged int to this forum at all. It is here, it is available, and people will buy it. When Mike's is available it will sell as well. I live in a state that allows anything under the sun and if the ATF does any reclassifying feel free to contact me to buy your Saiga if you are not allowed to have a DD. Get over it people. This is the real world. We live in a country that allows us to build nearly anything we want. Whether you are allowed to own it is a different story, but there is no use crying over spilt milk. Ban me if you want, I won't cry about it, but I support Mike D. He has the ATTITUDE of a person that WILL get something done. We don't need to eat our own at this point!!! After today we will be lucky if we don't have to convert ALL of our firearms to single shot, because in the end the MEDIA will have this individual carrying a full auto that he found on a street corner and was wearing full body armor from head to toe. Today was an unfortunate day for ALL gun owners.

[Franky 2]

Here is where I feel that we need to have every Saiga owner(Mike D, Cobra, and anyone else I haven't noticed was missing yet) back on this forum. Yes this is directed to you Bvamp!!!! I sit back and read and usually stay quiet, but now there is a DRUM available and Mike had nothing to do with this one and the guys that built it are not members of or have logged int to this forum at all. It is here, it is available, and people will buy it. When Mike's is available it will sell as well. I live in a state that allows anything under the sun and if the ATF does any reclassifying feel free to contact me to buy your Saiga if you are not allowed to have a DD. Get over it people. This is the real world. We live in a country that allows us to build nearly anything we want. Whether you are allowed to own it is a different story, but there is no use crying over spilt milk. Ban me if you want, I won't cry about it, but I support Mike D. He has the ATTITUDE of a person that WILL get something done. We don't need to eat our own at this point!!! After today we will be lucky if we don't have to convert ALL of our firearms to single shot, because in the end the MEDIA will have this individual carrying a full auto that he found on a street corner and was wearing full body armor from head to toe. Today was an unfortunate day for ALL gun owners.

Yea! Ban me too! I have the same attitude. I'm going to get in touch with Mike and see if he is in production yet. Cause I'm getting at least two of them. Band the higher priced mofo's. It's people like Mike and Cobra that really represent our gun right. FUCK THE PEOPLE THAT DON'T. Or Kiss My Ass. This ones for you Mike. Franky.J.

[Wombat 0]

This is the email I got from him.

 

Thanks for your interest , Our current Drum is Built for 3"

Mod parts will be available in the future for 2-3/4" shells.

Current price is $319.00 Drums are expected to ship within 30-45 days

in order of deposits taken. ordering instuctions are available on our

website.

 

Thanks again,

Dave @ Wraith Maker

[jaak 0]

some of you are the epitome of what is wrong with gun owners. you want to sue and bitch and moan about everything.

 

the bottom line is, this is a free market(relatively) and we are a capitalist society(relatively). that guy can make WHATEVER he wants. you people bitching about it shouldnt be allowed to even be associated with guns. you want to sue the friends. why dont you do something about the gun laws, instead of going after people on the same side.

[HardShell 0]

I may be the odd man out, but it looks big, heavy, and hard to control to me. The mounting looks a little makeshift too. Don't get me wrong, it took more innovation than I've got in me, but it doesn't look like a refined product yet.

I hope that this isn't Mike D's, regardless it was a poor choice of names if you don't want to draw attention.

 

 

From many of the posts here so far, it doesn't look like you are the "odd man out."

 

In addition to all of the aforementioned ergo/handling issues, this one doesn't interest me, personally, for the same reason that I consider the Beta-drums I have for my ARs as "range toys" only -- in any real-life, "serious" situation I much prefer reloads in many separate magazines to one or two "mega-high-capacity" units. Like any mechanical device, ammunition feeding devices - no matter how well-designed/-built - can and do fail (let alone get damaged/destroyed in the field). I've never been an "all my eggs in one basket" kind of guy.

 

FWIW, if it were in the $200+/- range I would probably buy one just as a fun novelty (as I did with the Betas) but it just doesn't fit my needs for any practical use nor do I see it ever doing so. As always, YMMV.

 

I also am VERY skeptical of that 30-45 day delivery. I will be very surprised if this doesn't turn out to be the next Shrike. But I don't know these folks, I hope I'm wrong, and I wish them well...

[G O B 3,516]

That thang is so overhuge, it needs wheels, or a pintle mount.