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WHY THE HELL DID YOU QUOTE ME?Mike send me a drum to beta test for you.

 

 

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I think the best name would be fp-20.

 

Not to be disrepectful to Mike D., but with all these things that "are going to be considered" in the design, there is no way this will be out in 8 to 12 weeks for production. I would think that one would need a prototype that could be tested for design concept. Also he could show us his prototype. There is an old proverb about a bird in hand being worth two in the bush. The Wraithmaker is available today and they have a video on youtube. It is in production and are currently taking orders. I think this drum on this thread will be at least 6 months off since all these new things are being considered. I believe the other product is real. Just look here :

 

 

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Here are some pics to show profile.

First off. This is not my working prototype. But it is the exact dimensions of my model. It is not a working prototype so please don't ask for live fire vids. I can't provide them right now. The prototype is retired for now. It is not the strongest thing there is and me taking a chance on messing something isn't worth it. I know it works, posting vids won't spped up production or anything. I hope you all would trust that I made damn certain it worked before turn the mold shop loose. I am far from a rich man and I wouldn't risk something as costly on just a hunch. You saw the hand cycle vid. It has the correct angle and does fire true.

The pics you are looking at is for profile purpuses only. It is a very rough copy and has been spray painted black. It was originally clear. It is an actly copy though. Also if you notice. you can see that I probably would only have to add a 1/4 inch to make it fire both 3 inch and 2 3/4 both. I still haven't decided if I will persue both. Hope these pics can hold you over for awhile. Notice it sits nice under the receiver.

post-2662-1177207700_thumb.jpgpost-2662-1177207707_thumb.jpg

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I think the best name would be fp-20.

 

Not to be disrepectful to Mike D., but with all these things that "are going to be considered" in the design, there is no way this will be out in 8 to 12 weeks for production. I would think that one would need a prototype that could be tested for design concept. Also he could show us his prototype. There is an old proverb about a bird in hand being worth two in the bush. The Wraithmaker is available today and they have a video on youtube. It is in production and are currently taking orders. I think this drum on this thread will be at least 6 months off since all these new things are being considered. I believe the other product is real. Just look here :

 

You know, the more I think about it. I do think you are the maker of the WM. You joined today, post three threads. All 3 strongly promoting "your" product' and one even in my info post and trying to bash me and my drum. Calling it FP-20, I think for flying pig-20. But you say not to be disrepectful?

Did I call your model the "Backbreaker" , or anything.

Also, here is the big thing. If it was avaliable today and in production? Why arn't they expected to be shipping for 30 to 45 days? Doesn't sound like they are quite in production to me. And if they are really in production, does it take 30 to 45 days to make one?

Sounds to me like you are nervously trying to secure orders with your preorder . Don't you relieze I could do the samething. And maybe I will here soon.

If you are the maker, please don't start a personal war with me. There is a large enough market for both of us. I'm sure you have enough on your plate, and so do I. Make all the comment and comparisons you like but I would watch try to make assuptions and trying to make people doubt my product. As you see it works both ways and my points above have a lot more warranty than yours. You can trust, it is coming, soon, and if I say something about my drum, it is true.

Edited by Mike Davidson
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I think the best name would be fp-20.

 

Not to be disrepectful to Mike D., but with all these things that "are going to be considered" in the design, there is no way this will be out in 8 to 12 weeks for production. I would think that one would need a prototype that could be tested for design concept. Also he could show us his prototype. There is an old proverb about a bird in hand being worth two in the bush. The Wraithmaker is available today and they have a video on youtube. It is in production and are currently taking orders. I think this drum on this thread will be at least 6 months off since all these new things are being considered. I believe the other product is real. Just look here :

 

 

Where did you come from? I bet this is Wraithmaker or one of his employes with hopeful thinking and wishing.

 

I have had a working prototype for well over a month. All kinds of things aren't being considered. Really just one. If I will adapt it to work with 3inch also is the only thing. I do have the bird in hand to speak. I have posted a video of loading and hand cycleing. Sorry I didn't film a live fire video, but that doesn't mean I didn't fire it over and over, in 6 different saiga-12. Yeah they are taking orders right now. And I could do the same. They also said it was 30 to 45 days out, but now all of a sudden the are avaliable now. Even after switching from 3inch only to 2 3/4 only. I dion't think I would hold my breath for immediate shipping or anything. I can't say what they have going on, just like you can't say what I have going on. But I did post the facts about my product. Nothing was streatched or lied on. As far as them, I can't say.

One thing I can say is, my drum will be out soon. I am not at all in fear of their drum causing any hurt to my sales either when I release them. I know I have a over all much better product as it stands, even if I don't make it fire both sizes of ammo. My product is A LOT more affordable as well. And they don't even want to start a price war either, I promise. My material is a lot cheaper and in the time they get their first peice of metal ready to cut, my molds will have kick out 5 or 10 drums. I would say that I can put all the peices together 5 times faster as well.

I'm not here to try and put them under though or anything. I had my ball rolling for over a month before I knew they exhisted. We are both competition the other didn't know they had.

The pigs will be buzzing your house a lot quicker than you think. Better staighten the point on your tin foil hat and clean the lens of your goggles.

 

I did watch your video this morning. I could not tell much from the video nor could i see it due to it being wrapped in cloth. I would have preferred a live fire presentation to see if it actually works. Since these discussions are time stamped, proof will be in the pudding. The clock has started with your thread. You have alot of work ahead of you. Molds to be made, parts runs tested. I agree it will be much more cheaper for you to produce since you can have thousands made at one time ready for assembly. But apparently this is a race and they have started on the track with a product.

 

BTW I do not work for the wraithmaker guys and i came from the internet when i stumbled across this forum on google (I was looking for wraithmaker). I do think their product is interesting and fairly a attractive presentation. It appears to work well and some of the issues of having a closed system go away when it's open design. If the swat teams go for it as I think they will, it will help them immensley.

 

I have heard they will be inviting some forum members for a test shoot. This will be very exciting.

Edited by Mike Davidson
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I did watch your video this morning. I could not tell much from the video nor could i see it due to it being wrapped in cloth. I would have preferred a live fire presentation to see if it actually works. Since these discussions are time stamped, proof will be in the pudding. The clock has started with your thread. You have alot of work ahead of you. Molds to be made, parts runs tested. I agree it will be much more cheaper for you to produce since you can have thousands made at one time ready for assembly. But apparently this is a race and they have started on the track with a product.

 

BTW I do not work for the wraithmaker guys and i came from the internet when i stumbled across this forum on google (I was looking for wraithmaker). I do think their product is interesting and fairly a attractive presentation. It appears to work well and some of the issues of having a closed system go away when it's open design. If the swat teams go for it as I think they will, it will help them immensley.

 

I have heard they will be inviting some forum members for a test shoot. This will be very exciting.

Of course a live fire presentation would have been better. But I did give myself one.

The clock started with my first threads around the begining of March. I am only in a race with myself. The mold shop has the work ahead of them, but that is why I took it to a mold shop, because that is what they do, make molds.

They may get in the field with it first, but trust I will be right behind them. People knowing that a better design is on the way will keep most from buying more than one of theirs. And when mine is released, I wouldn't be suprised to see a lot of their buyer's putting the WM up for sale.

Also, I personally don't know of ant swat that uses the saiga-12, not saying that none do, just haven't heard of any. That means, swat isn't going to be a big market for the drums. They probably wouldn't want a drum anyways. And if they did, my lower weight, lower cost, lower profile, and closed design will be more appealing. Police and military isn't going to be the big buyer of the drums. How many swats can you name that use a beta c-mag in their m4?

How many open design mags can you name? This open design a lone will make any police or military laugh and run. What happens if you are shooting from the bush or laying on the ground? What do you feel are the advantages of a open design? I hope you don't think staying clean is one of them. That you can see the rounds? You can see them in mine. I'm curious to the advantage. Less weight is why they said they made it open design. I'm sure it helps. But I would say there number one reason for the open design is the save on the expensive material and time consuming working time of preparing the metal by cnc.

Like I said before. I do wish them the best. I am sure they will sell a lot of drums. But my design will be the big seller the instant I release it, period. Basically anyone that wants a drum will choose my design. And a lot of people that buy the WM will be like " Man, I just got this WM and now there is already a cheaper, better design, damn!" Not a plan or conspricy against them. Just probably how it will go. I am not worried. I was a little worried at first, but the more I thought about it, well, just read above.

Edited by Mike Davidson
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I think the best name would be fp-20.

 

Not to be disrepectful to Mike D., but with all these things that "are going to be considered" in the design, there is no way this will be out in 8 to 12 weeks for production. I would think that one would need a prototype that could be tested for design concept. Also he could show us his prototype. There is an old proverb about a bird in hand being worth two in the bush. The Wraithmaker is available today and they have a video on youtube. It is in production and are currently taking orders. I think this drum on this thread will be at least 6 months off since all these new things are being considered. I believe the other product is real. Just look here :

 

You know, the more I think about it. I do think you are the maker of the WM. You joined today, post three threads. All 3 strongly promoting "your" product' and one even in my info post and trying to bash me and my drum. Calling it FP-20, I think for flying pig-20. But you say not to be disrepectful?

Did I call your model the "Backbreaker" , or anything.

Also, here is the big thing. If it was avaliable today and in production? Why arn't they expected to be shipping for 30 to 45 days? Doesn't sound like they are quite in production to me. And if they are really in production, does it take 30 to 45 days to make one?

Sounds to me like you are nervously trying to secure orders with your preorder . Don't you relieze I could do the samething. And maybe I will here soon.

If you are the maker, please don't start a personal war with me. There is a large enough market for both of us. I'm sure you have enough on your plate, and so do I. Make all the comment and comparisons you like but I would watch try to make assuptions and trying to make people doubt my product. As you see it works both ways and my points above have a lot more warranty than yours. You can trust, it is coming, soon, and if I say something about my drum, it is true.

 

 

Why are you so negative? What have I done to you? I mean no disrespect to you whatsoever, I am an engineer by training and I have only stated what I see to be obvious. Their product has a working prototype, they have a live fire video on your tube, they have patents. You have none of these things. I agree with your initial thread discussion...... you were caught with your pants down (your words not mine). You have gone on record that your product will be available in eight to ten weeks. Its up to you to make that happen. I have said enough, the rest is up to you.

 

 

Have a nice day.

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Why are you so negative? What have I done to you? I mean no disrespect to you whatsoever, I am an engineer by training and I have only stated what I see to be obvious. Their product has a working prototype, they have a live fire video on your tube, they have patents. You have none of these things. I agree with your initial thread discussion...... you were caught with your pants down (your words not mine). You have gone on record that your product will be available in eight to ten weeks. Its up to you to make that happen. I have said enough, the rest is up to you.

 

 

Have a nice day.

I am not negative. I am very positive.

Listen again, I have a working prototype. You saw it in the video. I fired the same drum in the video in 6 different saiga-12's, converted and unconverted both. Doesn't even look like the WM makers have a converted saiga-12 to test it in.

They don't have patents, they have patent pending. There is only one thing I saw on their mag that can be patented. I won't say what it is. Do you think even if they do get a patent it will stop people that have the right equipment from duplicating the metal drum? Not illegal even with a patent just as long as they never sell the copy to someone. They will have to build a mold the duplicate mine. Not a very cheap way to make a copied molded drum.

I wasn't caught with my pants down on the design. I just don't have a web site set up. Not a very big job to do. I didn't say it would be avaliable in 8 to 10 weeks. I said the mold shop said that. I said 12 weeks. If you would have read well you could have learned all this without me having to repeat it to you and correct you.

I don't want to arguee this out to you. Time will tell. You can then come back to these post and say," MikeD was right".

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Why are you so negative? What have I done to you? I mean no disrespect to you whatsoever, I am an engineer by training and I have only stated what I see to be obvious. Their product has a working prototype, they have a live fire video on your tube, they have patents. You have none of these things. I agree with your initial thread discussion...... you were caught with your pants down (your words not mine). You have gone on record that your product will be available in eight to ten weeks. Its up to you to make that happen. I have said enough, the rest is up to you.

 

 

Have a nice day.

I am not negative. I am very positive.

Listen again, I have a working prototype. You saw it in the video. I fired the same drum in the video in 6 different saiga-12's, converted and unconverted both. Doesn't even look like the WM makers have a converted saiga-12 to test it in.

They don't have patents, they have patent pending. There is only one thing I saw on their mag that can be patented. I won't say what it is. Do you think even if they do get a patent it will stop people that have the right equipment from duplicating the metal drum? Not illegal even with a patent just as long as they never sell the copy to someone. They will have to build a mold the duplicate mine. Not a very cheap way to make a copied molded drum.

I wasn't caught with my pants down on the design. I just don't have a web site set up. Not a very big job to do. I didn't say it would be avaliable in 8 to 10 weeks. I said the mold shop said that. I said 12 weeks. If you would have read well you could have learned all this without me having to repeat it to you and correct you.

I don't want to arguee this out to you. Time will tell. You can then come back to these post and say," MikeD was right".

 

July 20 , 2007 look for a post one way or another. I have limited knowldege of gun mechanisms, but why does the gun have to be converted. Can't these things just be put on the shotgun without modifications. My impression was theirs on a standard saiga-12.

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Why are you so negative? What have I done to you? I mean no disrespect to you whatsoever, I am an engineer by training and I have only stated what I see to be obvious. Their product has a working prototype, they have a live fire video on your tube, they have patents. You have none of these things. I agree with your initial thread discussion...... you were caught with your pants down (your words not mine). You have gone on record that your product will be available in eight to ten weeks. Its up to you to make that happen. I have said enough, the rest is up to you.

 

 

Have a nice day.

I am not negative. I am very positive.

Listen again, I have a working prototype. You saw it in the video. I fired the same drum in the video in 6 different saiga-12's, converted and unconverted both. Doesn't even look like the WM makers have a converted saiga-12 to test it in.

They don't have patents, they have patent pending. There is only one thing I saw on their mag that can be patented. I won't say what it is. Do you think even if they do get a patent it will stop people that have the right equipment from duplicating the metal drum? Not illegal even with a patent just as long as they never sell the copy to someone. They will have to build a mold the duplicate mine. Not a very cheap way to make a copied molded drum.

I wasn't caught with my pants down on the design. I just don't have a web site set up. Not a very big job to do. I didn't say it would be avaliable in 8 to 10 weeks. I said the mold shop said that. I said 12 weeks. If you would have read well you could have learned all this without me having to repeat it to you and correct you.

I don't want to arguee this out to you. Time will tell. You can then come back to these post and say," MikeD was right".

 

July 20 , 2007 look for a post one way or another. I have limited knowldege of gun mechanisms, but why does the gun have to be converted. Can't these things just be put on the shotgun without modifications. My impression was theirs on a standard saiga-12.

I will have plenty of update posts along the way. I tried to work delays into the equation with the 12 weeks. Hopefully it will be 8 to 10 like the shop said. If I think there will be a delay, I will post as soon as I think or know. I wouldn't wait until 7-20-07 to say so.

The gun doesn't have to be converted. It more than likely their design will work just as well in either converted or unconverted. But there are differences in the saiga's themselves. They variy from gun to gun.

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Joe Hilarious --

 

I don't have a horse in this race and for now I don't really intend to buy either of these drums (definately wouldn't get the Wraithmaker because of the exposed nature of it's design), but it sure does seem like you are just trolling. Normally, I wouldn't even make a comment like this; however, what you're doing is just so blatant that I couldn't bight my tongue. Let the guy do his thing. Either he'll come through or he won't -- you aren't an invester so it ain't your problem!!!

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Joe Hilarious --

 

I don't have a horse in this race and for now I don't really intend to buy either of these drums (definately wouldn't get the Wraithmaker because of the exposed nature of it's design), but it sure does seem like you are just trolling. Normally, I wouldn't even make a comment like this; however, what you're doing is just so blatant that I couldn't bight my tongue. Let the guy do his thing. Either he'll come through or he won't -- you aren't an invester so it ain't your problem!!!

 

I disagree with Mike D. so I am a troll? You are probably Mike D. with a 2nd login for all I know. So far reading threads, I find Mike D. saying anybody just copy the Wraithmaker and make one since patents dont count for anything (as long as they dont sell it). I have better things to do and the price is low enough. Then I start reading about somthing that is going to be great but is not ready yet and there is no prototype or livefire available. Any time a separate opinion is raised there is nothing but blow back on this form. I am entitled to my own opinion, I have only stated what as an outsider I see to be the facts. Just because I dont believe that Mike D.'s product will be availabe in 12 weeks, I am a bad person and a troll. I will buy a Wraithmaker before Congress, the Democrats and myorg gets everything banned. I will probably buy one of Mike D.'s also when I see the final product and see a live fire. Truth is Gen 2 on both these products will probably be better than Gen 1, if it is not banned by that time.

 

So K1196A have a nice day and dont be so paranoid.

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Joe Hilarious

 

I wouldn't speculate as bother to why you're trolling his post; nor do I care why you are doing it, but that is what you're doing.

 

You hypothesize that I'm Mike D. under a second login and then you say, I'm paranoid??? I hardly see how you could call me paranoid -- what do I have an irrational fear of here (maybe you just don't own a dictionary)? I have no agenda, no irrational fear -- I'm just calling a spade a spade.

 

And what are you disagreeing with Mike on? You disagree that he'll get it to market? And???? So???? If he does, he does. His problem, not yours. What's the point you think you're making? That's why what you're doing is trolling -- you're getting backlash because you're a troll, not because you can't have an opinion (BTW -- my opinion is you're a troll -- am I not entitled to that because I "disagree" with you). Everything you've said falls under the category of so f'n what......!!!!

Edited by K1196A
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Joe Hilarious --

 

I don't have a horse in this race and for now I don't really intend to buy either of these drums (definately wouldn't get the Wraithmaker because of the exposed nature of it's design), but it sure does seem like you are just trolling. Normally, I wouldn't even make a comment like this; however, what you're doing is just so blatant that I couldn't bight my tongue. Let the guy do his thing. Either he'll come through or he won't -- you aren't an invester so it ain't your problem!!!

 

I disagree with Mike D. so I am a troll? You are probably Mike D. with a 2nd login for all I know. So far reading threads, I find Mike D. saying anybody just copy the Wraithmaker and make one since patents dont count for anything (as long as they dont sell it). I have better things to do and the price is low enough. Then I start reading about somthing that is going to be great but is not ready yet and there is no prototype or livefire available. Any time a separate opinion is raised there is nothing but blow back on this form. I am entitled to my own opinion, I have only stated what as an outsider I see to be the facts. Just because I dont believe that Mike D.'s product will be availabe in 12 weeks, I am a bad person and a troll. I will buy a Wraithmaker before Congress, the Democrats and myorg gets everything banned. I will probably buy one of Mike D.'s also when I see the final product and see a live fire. Truth is Gen 2 on both these products will probably be better than Gen 1, if it is not banned by that time.

 

So K1196A have a nice day and dont be so paranoid.

First, If you read more into it. I didn't say everyone can copy the wraithmaker. I said the small few. And it would be very small in comparison. Guys like Tony and such. Do you think if everone could, that it would be a good thing for me. I would have myself some very expensive injected drums because everyone would just make there own metal ones. Copying is one thing a human does best. And you can bet your ass, people will make copies of the metal ones. It's just what we do.

PART of your trolling is you keep saying I don't have prototype and keep repeating the same negative things like, you don't think I'll make it to market.... Read above, How many times did I have to tell you, I HAVE A WORKING PROTOTYPE. Another is how you come in with no knowledge and post pig flying pics.

Maybe I have posted a later date for release then WM, big deal. At least when I stated that I might make a change in the design I said that it would probably add about 2 weeks if I did it. Wm said 30 to 45 days from the begining. And that 2 3/4 would come later. But now all of a sudden they are "avaliable now" with still an expected 30 to 45 days to ship. If they had both designs made and tested, don't you think they would have listed both for sale at the same time. Where is the live fire of 2 3/4 WM if it is "avaliable now".

I am being real with what I say. It seems to me that WM isn't giving much info. It also seem that they aren't telling quite the whole story. I'm not here with this thread to put down the WM. Your posts have forced me to compare the place BOTH me and WM are in. And some very realistic things between my product vs. theirs. Now let this thread get back on tract. If you you want to start a "MikeD bash'in/Wraithmaker suck ass'in" thread go a head, and post a thousand times a day in it repeating, the same thing over and over. You said what you think in my thread, over and over. Go somewhere else. You are messing up my thread.

 

Thanks for the defence, K1196A. I really feel this guy is just trying to test me patience. He sure came on strong. Really make me wonder. Would you say I'm paranoid too! :lolol:

Edited by Mike Davidson
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I disagree with Mike D. so I am a troll? You are probably Mike D. with a 2nd login for all I know. I am a bad person and a troll. I will buy a Wraithmaker before Congress, the Democrats and myorg gets everything banned. I will probably buy one of Mike D.'s also when I see the final product and see a live fire. Truth is Gen 2 on both these products will probably be better than Gen 1, if it is not banned by that time.

 

So K1196A have a nice day and dont be so paranoid.

 

This Joe Hilarious person is literally a fucktard. I say just ignore his posts.

 

IMHO.

Edited by Gary
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Joe Hilarious

 

I wouldn't speculate as bother to why you're trolling his post; nor do I care why you are doing it, but that is what you're doing.

 

You hypothesize that I'm Mike D. under a second login and then you say, I'm paranoid??? I hardly see how you could call me paranoid -- what do I have an irrational fear of here (maybe you just don't own a dictionary)? I have no agenda, no irrational fear -- I'm just calling a spade a spade.

 

And what are you disagreeing with Mike on? You disagree that he'll get it to market? And???? So???? If he does, he does. His problem, not yours. What's the point you think you're making? That's why what you're doing is trolling -- you're getting backlash because you're a troll, not because you can't have an opinion (BTW -- my opinion is you're a troll -- am I not entitled to that because I "disagree" with you). Everything you've said falls under the category of so f'n what......!!!!

 

not to mention all the strife he went through the first time on this issue... do you think he would go throught it a second time if he weren't dedicated to his product

and he has clearly made progress since the first go-around

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I disagree with Mike D. so I am a troll? You are probably Mike D. with a 2nd login for all I know. I am a bad person and a troll. I will buy a Wraithmaker before Congress, the Democrats and myorg gets everything banned. I will probably buy one of Mike D.'s also when I see the final product and see a live fire. Truth is Gen 2 on both these products will probably be better than Gen 1, if it is not banned by that time.

 

So K1196A have a nice day and dont be so paranoid.

 

This Joe Hilarious person is literally a fucktard. I say just ignore his posts.

 

IMHO.

 

gary... you sure got a good way with words... i like it

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Fucktard..the new official Saiga-12 dipshit describer :D Cobra started it and i cant get it out of my head :wacko:

 

I like the way you guys handle yourself. Very professional...mixing profanity with overblown egos. I really dont understand why you guys have an issue with the points I raised.

 

I will be here till July 20th at the very least. Watching the excuses fly as to why the Vapor product has not been produced yet. Engineering and conceptualizing is easier after a few beers. Unfortunately after the beer wears off you have to live up to reality and all the claims made.

 

I really hate the used of profanity in a forum like this. I understand that you must be very frustrated, but the use of profanity is only is an your inability to respond in a reasonable manner.

 

Go ahead, have another beer on me, perhaps it will speed up the product development and production.

 

 

Have a nice day.

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Wilkipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

 

Trolls can be existing members of a community that rarely post and often contribute no useful information to the thread, but instead make argumentative posts in an attempt to discredit another person, more often than not based on what they thought was said rather than what was actually said by the other person, concentrating almost exclusively on facts irrelevant to the point of the conversation, with the intent of provoking a reaction from others. The key element under attack by a troll is the forum or group's recognized and agreed upon power structure. To this extent, a troll does not necessarily have to make malicious or incorrect comments. For example, a person with political point of view A who approaches a forum frequented by people with political point of view B, may be considered a troll, even if no lies or attacks are made.

 

A person who retaliates (using whatever means) as a result of a misunderstanding (or as a way of rebelling against the overzealous application of rules) is not a troll. A troll is a person who approaches a board with the specific intention of stirring things up, either with no particular motive or provocation in mind, other than to be purely destructive or if the motive or provocation is against the ethos of the board. For example, a neo-Nazi approaching a Jewish forum with the intention of attacking the members, purely because the neo-Nazi knows the forum to contain Jewish members, may be considered a troll.

 

troll.jpg

Edited by K1196A
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Mike,

 

Here are a few suggestions. Keep in mind what you payed for them tho (do I get a .02 cent discount on my first drum?).

 

Don't get in a hurry. Maybe talk with Kevin about his mags. He changed a few things along the way and the time line slipped quite a bit (seemed like a LONG time from those who were waiting ... and you know how we on Saigadotcom love to wait patiently ... NOT). I think he changed from one piece metal insert to 2 piece. And I think the angle on something changed (follower or feed lips). And of course the material on the feed lips changed. I think there is a LOT of satisfaction with the 10 rounders because Kevin was patient, not afraid to change if something wasn't working quite well as is. Hopefully you have a straight path to production, but if it isn't it's OK. We understand if things are changed to fix unanticipated problems (Kevin had a mold lifter that didn't work, or something).

 

If you have the bandwidth, I think updates help the folks wait.

 

I think you are right that molded mags don't need a patent for protection, as it's unlikely that anyone would bother to copy it just to make there own. Again, you might consider checking with AGP to see what he did?

 

GL, Have patience with the inpatient group that we are!

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Fucktard..the new official Saiga-12 dipshit describer :D Cobra started it and i cant get it out of my head :wacko:

 

I like the way you guys handle yourself. Very professional...mixing profanity with overblown egos. I really dont understand why you guys have an issue with the points I raised.

 

I will be here till July 20th at the very least. Watching the excuses fly as to why the Vapor product has not been produced yet. Engineering and conceptualizing is easier after a few beers. Unfortunately after the beer wears off you have to live up to reality and all the claims made.

 

I really hate the used of profanity in a forum like this. I understand that you must be very frustrated, but the use of profanity is only is an your inability to respond in a reasonable manner.

 

Go ahead, have another beer on me, perhaps it will speed up the product development and production.

 

 

Have a nice day.

I can be as civil as you want. I am an outsider to both WM and Mike D, but I love the Saiga. Good luck to both in their endeavors. They need it. I like Mike D and he has been helpful to me from the start when I joined this forum and I was aware of his DRUM when I first heard of the WM. In fact the very day after I was aware of it, and before I made my first post regarding the WM I sent Mike D a PM to let him know my stance on the subject. The people at WM have also been helpful with regards to answering questions and as I have posted in a separate thread I will likely be one of the first members of this forum to see and use the WM. They are only 60 miles from me and have plans to have me shoot their WM in a converted S12 and if given the chance I will do a test fire with slugs, birdshot, and buckshot to show forum members its versatility. This thread you are posting in should be for asking questions about Mike D's drum that is in the works. By you trying to provoke him, you are not gaining friends or making a valid contribution to this forum. Therefore in the minds of the people on this forum you were trolling. I will and intend to support both Mike D and the WM and wish both luck. As soon as I am fortunate enought to get a WM I will and the moment Mike D has his available I will purchase his model. My opinion is that the market is large enough for both designs and each design has it's own positive points.

Good luck to both.

Have a nice day!

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Mike,

 

Here are a few suggestions. Keep in mind what you payed for them tho (do I get a .02 cent discount on my first drum?).

 

Don't get in a hurry. Maybe talk with Kevin about his mags. He changed a few things along the way and the time line slipped quite a bit (seemed like a LONG time from those who were waiting ... and you know how we on Saigadotcom love to wait patiently ... NOT). I think he changed from one piece metal insert to 2 piece. And I think the angle on something changed (follower or feed lips). And of course the material on the feed lips changed. I think there is a LOT of satisfaction with the 10 rounders because Kevin was patient, not afraid to change if something wasn't working quite well as is. Hopefully you have a straight path to production, but if it isn't it's OK. We understand if things are changed to fix unanticipated problems (Kevin had a mold lifter that didn't work, or something).

 

If you have the bandwidth, I think updates help the folks wait.

 

I think you are right that molded mags don't need a patent for protection, as it's unlikely that anyone would bother to copy it just to make there own. Again, you might consider checking with AGP to see what he did?

 

GL, Have patience with the inpatient group that we are!

I tried to contact Kevin at AGP about the feedlips. I thought since he was having them made somewhere that it might be cheaper for me to get them throught the same place. He said he couldn't help me at all. Now though, I'm glad. After careful comparison, the AGP feedlips are very slightly different than factory ones. I I will just have them made myself closest to original as possible or buy directly from Izhmash. I am waiting for quotes.

I really don't think I will have the drastic delays AGP had. I can only hope...

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I will and intend to support both Mike D and the WM and wish both luck. As soon as I am fortunate enought to get a WM I will and the moment Mike D has his available I will purchase his model. My opinion is that the market is large enough for both designs and each design has it's own positive points.

Good luck to both.

Have a nice day!

I also wish the WM guys luck. I don't want a war with them and hope they don't want one with me. I too am sure I will buy a WM, just cause. But I will surly have a closet full of my own design. :smoke: I to think both have positives and negatives. I do know that my design has the advatages in number of positives vs. negatives though. But now people will have a choice for what floats their boat the best. Different strocks for different folks. It's a good thing.

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Hi

 

I am more sold in Mike Davidsons design, it looks better, wil not jam due to twigs getting into it as it is not exposed, weighs less, should be almost as durable, costs less, looks better. heres lookin forwrd to the live fire vid.

 

all the best

 

assassin

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Hi

 

I am more sold in Mike Davidsons design, it looks better, wil not jam due to twigs getting into it as it is not exposed, weighs less, should be almost as durable, costs less, looks better. heres lookin forwrd to the live fire vid.

 

all the best

 

assassin

Thanks Assassin. I wish I would have filmed live fire already. When I filmed the hand cycling I was planning on filming a live fire the next day or so. After I received all the negative feedback on the subject and hand cycling video, it kind of broke my spirit of the live fire video. Now the prototype is tied up and retired. It will come soon enough.

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Hi

 

I am more sold in Mike Davidsons design, it looks better, wil not jam due to twigs getting into it as it is not exposed, weighs less, should be almost as durable, costs less, looks better. heres lookin forwrd to the live fire vid.

 

all the best

 

assassin

Thanks Assassin. I wish I would have filmed live fire already. When I filmed the hand cycling I was planning on filming a live fire the next day or so. After I received all the negative feedback on the subject and hand cycling video, it kind of broke my spirit of the live fire video. Now the prototype is tied up and retired. It will come soon enough.

 

well if if it weren't for fucktards we'd have the vid...

wait i was one of the fucktards that time...

sorry mike... of course we made up personally and now i realize there were others like yo out there making a similar product...

i do hope for your success over the wm... as you are going through all of this out of love for the saiga 12...

i think they are doing it for the fact that they can... just my opinion

and i do look forwadr to buying your product

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well if if it weren't for fucktards we'd have the vid...

wait i was one of the fucktards that time...

sorry mike... of course we made up personally and now i realize there were others like yo out there making a similar product...

i do hope for your success over the wm... as you are going through all of this out of love for the saiga 12...

i think they are doing it for the fact that they can... just my opinion

and i do look forwadr to buying your product

Thanks. I really just wanted a drum. I did try to offer my ideas to a few but they weren't willing to do it. I would have been just as happy to buy it from someone else. I thought that it was getting to a point with the current politics that I would have to make one myself if I wanted it and that is what I did. I am glad I didn't wait. Know doubt if the WM annoncment came first, I would have just waited and bought one of theirs. But since I had the ball rolling already, we will have a 2 designs to choose from. I know though, even if my design wasn't mine, I would still choose it over the WM. Thanks for all the support guys. This has been a very stressful mission for me and your support is take off some of the load and making it worth while.

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well if if it weren't for fucktards we'd have the vid...

wait i was one of the fucktards that time...

sorry mike... of course we made up personally and now i realize there were others like yo out there making a similar product...

i do hope for your success over the wm... as you are going through all of this out of love for the saiga 12...

i think they are doing it for the fact that they can... just my opinion

and i do look forwadr to buying your product

Thanks. I really just wanted a drum. I did try to offer my ideas to a few but they weren't willing to do it. I would have been just as happy to buy it from someone else. I thought that it was getting to a point with the current politics that I would have to make one myself if I wanted it and that is what I did. I am glad I didn't wait. Know doubt if the WM annoncment came first, I would have just waited and bought one of theirs. But since I had the ball rolling already, we will have a 2 designs to choose from. I know though, even if my design wasn't mine, I would still choose it over the WM. Thanks for all the support guys. This has been a very stressful mission for me and your support is take off some of the load and making it worth while.

 

i think the 2 product will more complement than compete with one another... but theirs is a lot less practical... big

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