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MikeD's Saiga-12 20rd Drum Magazine, information thread


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I wish we'd here something from MD. I'm not going to buy any more Saiga's, and I've got all the AGP mags I'll ever need in this life. The only reason I check in on the forum is to get an update on a drum (MD's drum) for my Tromix.

 

Things are getting really quiet around here.

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Cobra,

 

My intention was not disrespecting the site, it has provided me lots of great info, but like many places, after you've built/altered the weapons, you don't need the initial knowledge you that you first learned.

 

I've been at Arfcom and FalFiles for example since about 1999, and learned all I ever needed to build a bunch of Fals and AR's. I still continue to visit these sites, but lose interest in many of the posts which are basic questions from Newbies.

 

Here, I'm interested now in MD's drums. I still look at the titles here but don't read nearly as much.

 

Not a put down, but simply a interest in different levels of material. Saiga-12 is an awesome site, I learned a lot. When some more cool items come out that interest me, I'll again read here much more material.

 

Keep up the good work, and Mike, please give us an update.

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This has gone ominously quiet. Has anyone who knows Mike well spoken to him lately or knows whether his hoped for date is still likely to happen?

 

"Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be.

Whisper words of wisdom, let it be. "

 

Have faith, MD won't let us down

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I'm alive. Got my computer fixed. I finally just had Geek Squad come out and fix it. Last post I made was from a friends computer while I was helping him move. Anyways, I know I have a lot of emails to answer and apologize for the absences.

 

I have a bunch of mag dump videos to post and some new pics. I haven't got my Kodak EasyShare back up yet though. I will be working on all this tomorrow. I will definitely have the vids & pics up and ALL emails answered tomorrow. Along with a good update post. I hope know one gave up on me. If so, your faith will hopefully be restored after you see the MANY full mag dumps. :super:

Edited by Mike Davidson
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I'm alive. Got my computer fixed. I finally just had Geek Squad come out and fix it. Last post I made was from a friends computer while I was helping him move. Anyways, I know I have a lot of emails to answer and apologize for the absences.

 

I have a bunch of mag dump videos to post and some new pics. I haven't got my Kodak EasyShare back up yet though. I will be working on all this tomorrow. I will definitely have the vids & pics up and ALL emails answered tomorrow. Along with a good update post. I hope know one gave up on me. If so, your faith will hopefully be restored after you see the MANY full mag dumps. :super:

 

 

Sweet! Saiga drum vidoes are always fun.

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I'm alive. Got my computer fixed. I finally just had Geek Squad come out and fix it. Last post I made was from a friends computer while I was helping him move. Anyways, I know I have a lot of emails to answer and apologize for the absences.

 

I have a bunch of mag dump videos to post and some new pics. I haven't got my Kodak EasyShare back up yet though. I will be working on all this tomorrow. I will definitely have the vids & pics up and ALL emails answered tomorrow. Along with a good update post. I hope know one gave up on me. If so, your faith will hopefully be restored after you see the MANY full mag dumps. :super:

hallelujah.wav

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I assume they will have the metal feed lips like AGP or standard magazines? Have you done a drop test? I would like to know, when fully loaded will it survive getting dropped onto the ground, thrown, and beat arround? Will it crack & break up or still work?

 

 

Very nice drum, aesthetically pleasing, I just hope it functions reliably and can take a beating.

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I assume they will have the metal feed lips like AGP or standard magazines? Have you done a drop test? I would like to know, when fully loaded will it survive getting dropped onto the ground, thrown, and beat arround? Will it crack & break up or still work?

 

 

Very nice drum, aesthetically pleasing, I just hope it functions reliably and can take a beating.

I haven't dropped, thrown or beat around my Beta C Mags. I hope they can take a beating but I ain't going to be beating them to find out.

1911

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dont forget to pay max within the week, too....

 

Or ELSE! :ded:

You think they made me a Mod because I know Gun stuff???

 

 

Good to see you back!

 

 

 

 

:haha:

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Mike, I just happen to be breaking several years of silence on this Forum in order to praise and congratulate you. I'm am truly impressed with your efforts and what you have already accomplished seemingly single handedly. As far as I'm concerned, you Sir, are an inspiration to the cause I believe we here all share. By just exercising your commitment to create and express your Freedom you are being of service to so many of us who share your same desire of Spirit to practice our freedoms. I've read every line of every page of this long thread and you have done well. I'd like to be counted among your future customers, and earnest admirers. Whether or not I ever obtain one of your drums, I thank you for being a model of "can do ism" which reminds me once again why and how our country is so very special in this troubled world. Thank you & I salute you. Colin

 

(Perfection is a Principle.)

Edited by SaiganFire
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As you all know it's been awhile since I have been able to provide you all with an update so here it comes. Sorry again for leaving you all to guess.

 

First off, and disappointing. I have decided to not produce the design that holds both 2 3/4 and 3inch (for now). This sucks but let me explain. The drum had no problems firing 3 inch or the longer 2 3/4. But when it came to the shortest of the 2 3/4 a problem came up. At first it didn't do it but after a little wear the problem showed up. (the weaker prototype material showed wear many, many times faster than a production strength material which was good for analysis) There is a point in the mag (when the shell is coming off the gear and into the tower) when the shell was not held as tight. During the recoil the shorter round (between the transition from gear to tower tracks) would move forward as the gun recoiled. This caused the rim of the shell to be forward of the track in the tower and caused hang ups. I fixed this problem by coming up with away for the shell to be brought back to the tracks and it worked fine, BUT....

 

Alright let me go into this first. I am sure all of you that like to blow away 100rd Winchester, Federal, and Remington value packs have ran into this. Every once in awhile one of the rounds will nose up and jam on the tang off the top of the barrel inside the receiver no matter if you are using 5, 8 or 10rd mags. This is partly a ammo manufactures error and also a error on the part of Izhmash for not considering the inconsistent ammo length of out of country ammo manufactures. This would never happen if the ammo manufactures had a standard for length ( like every other rifle or pistol ammo on the planet, could you imagine if the casing length varied in say .223 for one maker to the other?) for unfired shotgun rounds). When Izhmash designed the Siaga-12 they must have designed it based on a their ammo alone. All the Russian ammo I've seen has a consistent length for the unfired 2 3/4 rounds. Compare some Wolf buckshot and Silver Bear steel case. If you manually try to nose up these rounds from the magazine in the receiver it is not possible to make the nose come up and past the top tang off the barrel. The tang is just long enough that it will stop the rounds. Now try to nose up some non Russian rounds. They will pass the tang, the shorter, the easier. If the ammo makers had a standard like the Russians it would never happen. If the Russians had considered the lack of consistency the could have made the top tang longer ( there is plenty of room to do so in the receiver that it wouldn't affect anything) to serve the same purpose for all rounds). A skilled machinist could modify there gun by adding length to the tang themselves, but let face it, most people don't modify there guns and the way it is out of the box is the way it stays.

 

Back to the BUT, while the short 2 3/4 shell was being moved back into position the extra movement inside the mag made the shell nose up more often. It didn't do it every time or anything but made it about twice as likely to happen than in 5, 8, and 10rders. This was unacceptable to me. Longer rounds like 2 3/4 speer lawman never nosed up in the 3 inch design ( it is possible to do manually though so it is possible for it to do it automatically ) I figured most people will be shooting the cheap stuff out of these drums which are all as short as they come in 2 3/4. And this is why I decided against the 3inch design. I do plan on making a 3inch design after the 2 3/4 only design is released, but for now I have to satisfy the larger 2 3/4 market. This was a hard choice for me to make. The design to handle both will come soon after. The 3inch design handled the longer ammo just fine and even most of the 2 3/4, but like I said, most people including myself will be shooting 100rd value packs. And nothing can change a firing held breath release from a satisfying empty gun exhale like an annoyed jammed sigh. For all that want a 3inch design, it will come, and with a gun modification you will be able to fire value pack ammo just as well as the expensive stuff (along with your 5, 8, and 10rders) with this problem NEVER happening again. But like I said, most people won't do the gun mod so I have to do the 2 3/4 inch only first. It suck and I'm very sorry. It pisses me off the most 12ga ammo makers don't have a standard, this is the 21st century damn it. And also that Izhmash could have fixed it by adding an extra 3/8 inch of length to the tang but didn't consider other ammo. Oh well, it's the way it is.

 

Production time line? The estimated release date has no doubt been delayed. I am not sure by how much yet. I would guess at least a month but am not sure just yet. I am hoping to have an answer to this by the end of next week.

 

Price? I am very close to having a solid price for the drum but have been considering other materials for the mag construction. I also am hoping to have this figured out by the end of next week. I seriously doubt it will be more than $200. I am hoping it will be around $160 but please don't take that price as solid because I just don't know yet.

 

Taking orders? I am going today to work on a website to place orders. I also hope to have this done by the end of next week and start taking orders, but I need to answer the 2 questions above before I can take advanced orders.

 

I have more to post but need to take a quick break. I'll be back in just a little bit to post more and answer posted and pm questions.

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Mike, I doubt that this would work, but maybe it could?

 

In 1911 pistols, the 9mm shooters sometimes use 38 super mags, and sometimes they use 9mm mags which have a spacer added. Maybe a 3in mag could have a spacer in the front that could be removed upon full mag dissassembly? Just tossing it out, you know I'm not a fan of the 3in shell anyways, but making a 3 inch mag that could be modified to better handle a 2 3/4 is one way to consider. Maybe you would pay less overall to your manufactures? Just kicking ideas around here.

 

Personally, I'd have been shocked if bumps like this didn't come into the equation. Hang in there, it'll be worth it!

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I realy dont have much interest in a 3" design anyway, but most of my shooting will be done with the longer Wolf,Noble 2 3/4" noncrimp type Buckshot loads.Will these still be dependable in the 2 3/4" drum...just not 100% sure on that issue??

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I realy dont have much interest in a 3" design anyway, but most of my shooting will be done with the longer Wolf,Noble 2 3/4" noncrimp type Buckshot loads.Will these still be dependable in the 2 3/4" drum...just not 100% sure on that issue??

Damn Pointer. I'm sorry but the Wolf non crimp won't fit now, not sure about the Noble. I do plan to make the 3 inch design as well and since it is already developed it shouldn't be very far behind the 2 3/4 only. I just don't have the funds to do them at the same time. You don't now how sore I am over the 3 inch design issue. Let me rephase that. The ammo design and Saiga design issue. The 3 inch worked fine. You don't know how I would love to get the ammo manufactures and the Izhmash designers all in one room. First I would slap the shit out of each and every ammo maker for not having a standard like ALL other ammo on the planet, then after i got done with them I would slap the shit out of the Russians with the other hand for not taking ALL ammo into account when designing the Saiga-12 ( I wouldn't slap Mikhail Kalashnikov, I'd shake his hand but would have to slap his right hand man twice)

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Mike, I doubt that this would work, but maybe it could?

 

In 1911 pistols, the 9mm shooters sometimes use 38 super mags, and sometimes they use 9mm mags which have a spacer added. Maybe a 3in mag could have a spacer in the front that could be removed upon full mag dissassembly? Just tossing it out, you know I'm not a fan of the 3in shell anyways, but making a 3 inch mag that could be modified to better handle a 2 3/4 is one way to consider. Maybe you would pay less overall to your manufactures? Just kicking ideas around here.

 

Personally, I'd have been shocked if bumps like this didn't come into the equation. Hang in there, it'll be worth it!

I did think of this as a solution. In the white drum I made a insert that went completely around the inner face of the drum to take up the extra room so I could be certain the extra room was the true cause of the problem. Worked like a charm and varified it for me. I did think of making a insert that comes with the mag. I am just getting to the point of being tapped out on design changes and prototype expensese. I do plan to incorporate it in the 3 inch design when I release it later. It would be a very easy fix to add it to the design. I just hate the fact that it is a problem that shouldn't be there at all. I wanted a design that used both without having to do anything to it other than stuff the ammo in. I did that even with the ammo makers lack of consistancy. But I can't make up for the Siaga designers lack of not fixing the ammo consistencey problem in their design. It is literallly the absense of about 3/8 x 1/4 x 1/8 in of extra metal on the tang that would have made this a non exhistant problem. Their oversight has turned my success into faliure in a sence. I couldn't accept the hang up increase with the cheap stuff to do the 3inch mag first or without the insert.

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Thought I should post this in the thread as well!

 

The pics are of a stronger sls prototype. It was originally grey but I painted it black. I can't film a video in the shortbarrel because I have sold it and it wouldn't be right to fire while the transfer goes through, sorry.

 

All videos posted are FULL mag dumps. I tried to splice all the videos together but it didn't work right so I had to do them seperatly.

 

Video 1 and 2 are the newer drum. And 3,4, & 5 are of the white one you saw before. The one that was giving me problems ( prototype strength ). If you only watch a couple watch 3 first and then 1. I'll be back in a little bit to give an update post and answer post questions and emails. ENJOY!!!

Video link: http://youtube.com/profile_videos?user=hellyeahdrum

post-2662-1182622773_thumb.jpgpost-2662-1182622788_thumb.jpg

post-2662-1182622805_thumb.jpgpost-2662-1182622815_thumb.jpg

Edited by Mike Davidson
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Mike, I just happen to be breaking several years of silence on this Forum in order to praise and congratulate you. I'm am truly impressed with your efforts and what you have already accomplished seemingly single handedly. As far as I'm concerned, you Sir, are an inspiration to the cause I believe we here all share. By just exercising your commitment to create and express your Freedom you are being of service to so many of us who share your same desire of Spirit to practice our freedoms. I've read every line of every page of this long thread and you have done well. I'd like to be counted among your future customers, and earnest admirers. Whether or not I ever obtain one of your drums, I thank you for being a model of "can do ism" which reminds me once again why and how our country is so very special in this troubled world. Thank you & I salute you. Colin

 

(Perfection is a Principle.)

Colin,

You should talk to us here more. Thanks for the kind words to you and everyone that has made them. I do appreciate the support I've been given, greatly. :super: It has been a time consuming and stressful process. It truly has been out of love and desire to better this weapon that I did it. Not money. And that will be reflected in the quality. My posts can already verify this.

 

Also let me take this time to say that no one (other than Joe) has bothered me with any post or pm's. I enjoy answering the question, all of them, and discussing the subject. Joe was just a simple troll. He wasn't offering any constructive criticism, just tacking blows. I enjoy the doubtful questions. It gives me a chance to honestly answer. Don't be afraid to throw out what if's and stuff. I consider Kmoore to be one of my biggest critics and supporters at the same time. He isn't afraid to ask and knows how to ask. I respect it greatly. And trust I will give an honest answer and not sugar coat things. When answering your questions I try to let go of emotional attachment and tell it how it is. I can say that I am super pleased with the drums and do love them for what they are, not just because they are my own.

 

Thanks Again Everyone

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