MikeD's Saiga-12 20rd Drum Magazine, information thread

[Pointer 21]

Lets just ignore Joe and he will disapear,its now clear what hes here for.So...how was everones day?

 

Mike,looks like your drum might fit in a Chinese pouch made for the 75-100rd drums....that would work out nice as there plentyful and fairly cheap right now.

Edited April 23, 2007 by Pointer

[MikeD 541]

Lets just ignore Joe and he will disapear,its now clear what hes here for.So...how was everones day?

 

Mike,looks like your drum might fit in a Chinese pouch made for the 75-100rd drums....that would work out nice as there plentyful and fairly cheap right now.

I think I have a 75rd pouch here somewhere. I'll see if I can find it. If memory serves me well, the 75 rder might be a little small. I'll try to check it out.

Edited April 24, 2007 by Mike Davidson

[MikeD 541]

Ok my 2 cents again...who cares anyway right?

 

Mike by being cocky, I meant continuing to argue and give the troll ammo, your last post before I said that was not the only nya nya sounding one in the thread IMO. I'm not trying to hassle ya bro take it easy.

 

Yeah post #50 repeat, was gonna say the same thing.

 

The whole argument about whether or not said troll is WM is childish speculation IMO. Somebody call the fuckers and ask geez!

Why does everything have to have all this drama?

 

BTW I think you meant "unprofessional didn't you?"

 

 

 

mccumber1916 I was the one that told Mike it would be wise to pull the vid...I don't consider myself an asshole thanks...

Point taken, I was a little while comparing the 2 and such.

[mccumber1916 1]

Lets just ignore Joe and he will disapear,its now clear what hes here for.So...how was everones day?

 

well pointer... i had the day off to spend with the girl i'm in love with AND my sharkbreak came in

SHIT the wife just oulled up... but how was yours?

[Pointer 21]

Not as good as yours Dont mean to clog up this thread but your post reminded me of a decal i have out on the beer fridge,it goes:

The only thing in life i want is for my

wife and girlfriend to get along.

[scoutjoe 276]

So...how was everones day?

 

well I found out today that my landlord dosen't pay for the cable, and that i've been getting it illegally for the past 3+ months...

 

 

other than that I'm trying to patiently wait on Mike's report

[mccumber1916 1]

So...how was everones day?

 

well I found out today that my landlord dosen't pay for the cable, and that i've been getting it illegally for the past 3+ months...

 

 

other than that I'm trying to patiently wait on Mike's report

mike... are they done yet... kidding

lol... i had it free for a year... i had a buddy that was a former cable guy

[MikeD 541]

So...how was everones day?

 

well I found out today that my landlord dosen't pay for the cable, and that i've been getting it illegally for the past 3+ months...

 

 

other than that I'm trying to patiently wait on Mike's report

mike... are they done yet... kidding

lol... i had it free for a year... i had a buddy that was a former cable guy

I do have some to report. I had a meeting today with the people that will be manufacturing the feedlips, springs, and a retaining clip for the back cover. They said that they would be able to make the feedlips just like the factory ones. ( They won't have the different angle like the agp ones) They said that they would all be very easy and fairly cheap to make.

The spring is a torsion spring, (means it twists vs. a compression spring that collapses) I told them it needed to be strong and not prone to set. Also I told him I wanted it to be silicone coated to resist corrosion. They haven't given me a solid number just yet, but from what he told me, I should be able to offer extra springs for around $5 each. I doubt anyone would ever need them but I could probably also sell the feedlip for around $3 to $4 each. These are not prices that are set in stone yet, but will be close.

This same company may also be making the one piece metal insert. If all goes well the mag will have a metal insert that wrap the complete diameter of the drum and folds up and around for all 4 sides of the tower. It will snap together with 2 "T"s and be molded completely inside the mag. I really hope this feature can be worked in. The drum would still be strong without them like the USAS and AA-12 but would be stronger with them. I know AGP originally planned on metal inserts but had to give them up. The mold shop said that if the metal insert couldn't be worked in efficiently that they could make it almost as strong by adding extra material ribs in the beatification process.

Edited April 24, 2007 by Mike Davidson

[avatar 4]

..........beatification process.

 

 

Now that's what I'm talking about -- Holy Drums.

 

 

Zombies now stand no chance whatsoever.

[Veen 0]

Well this thing is sounding infinitely more awesome, and the actions of a certain recent troll has sealed the deal that I will never EVER buy the Wraithmaker product, even if the MD version of the magazine gets delayed a year. Your behavior in this thread and your discussion of the concept have sealed the deal for me.

 

Just a design question for you Mike, what is it about the design of the magazine that would make you unable to feed 2.75" through the 3" model of the magazine? It seems to me that if you took the mold and ran a slight rail on the very back of the magazine like in the regular sticks, you could keep the rounds anchored back there until it's time to feed and they pop free of the rail, and the only thing limiting you would be the actual interior dimension of the magazine itself. Do drums not work that way, or is it only this magazine that doesn't work this way? Obviously due to security issues you can choose to not answer this, but I'd really like to know just what it is about the design of both this and the WM that seems to preclude the very simple addition of a rail at the back of the magazine to hold onto the rims of the shells, thus letting you shove whatever you feel like in there.

 

Obviously I'll buy the 3" version if there's not one that will accept both sizes since that's usually what I run, but it'd be REALLY nice to be able to go to the range and pick from other people's ammo stashes who tend to keep 2.75" on hand because their pumps are "recoil dampening challenged," and still be able to fire it without having to revert to a stick. Also the SHTF type scenarios where you might have to just use what you can get insetad of the precise ammo brand and size needed that you know runs through the mag, etc. etc.

[MikeD 541]

Well this thing is sounding infinitely more awesome, and the actions of a certain recent troll has sealed the deal that I will never EVER buy the Wraithmaker product, even if the MD version of the magazine gets delayed a year. Your behavior in this thread and your discussion of the concept have sealed the deal for me.

 

Just a design question for you Mike, what is it about the design of the magazine that would make you unable to feed 2.75" through the 3" model of the magazine? It seems to me that if you took the mold and ran a slight rail on the very back of the magazine like in the regular sticks, you could keep the rounds anchored back there until it's time to feed and they pop free of the rail, and the only thing limiting you would be the actual interior dimension of the magazine itself. Do drums not work that way, or is it only this magazine that doesn't work this way? Obviously due to security issues you can choose to not answer this, but I'd really like to know just what it is about the design of both this and the WM that seems to preclude the very simple addition of a rail at the back of the magazine to hold onto the rims of the shells, thus letting you shove whatever you feel like in there.

 

Obviously I'll buy the 3" version if there's not one that will accept both sizes since that's usually what I run, but it'd be REALLY nice to be able to go to the range and pick from other people's ammo stashes who tend to keep 2.75" on hand because their pumps are "recoil dampening challenged," and still be able to fire it without having to revert to a stick. Also the SHTF type scenarios where you might have to just use what you can get insetad of the precise ammo brand and size needed that you know runs through the mag, etc. etc.

Thanks for the support. I have tried very hard not to get to emotional over it all. When I first released that I made a drum around a month ago I had some harsh attacks. I tried to be calm then as well but didn't do a very good job of it. I quickly snapped. I wished I would have handled it differently then. Now I have a chance to make it right and am doing my best.

As far as the WM goes. We really can't say for sure if Joe H. is WM or not. It sure doesn't take much research in his posts, profile, ... to strongly point to that. Honestly though I would say a lot more likely than not, it is WM. Of course this just an opinion.

If it is, I can kind of relate. If it is, they are no doubt acting on their emotions. They might have thought they were coming into the market by themselves. If so, then when they found out, and started seeing the details of the other, it couldn't have been a good feeling for them. They no doubt have put forth hard, stressful, my head is going to explode, work. We shouldn't rule them out just yet. I know of 2 people myself that said they would never buy my drum because of the way I responded the first go around. This is just a speculation if it is. If it is , No hard feelings Joe, and come clean. Let use know what your thinking and give us more detail. If it isn't then try to approach things differently.

 

On to the important stuff, Facts.

 

About the design for both shell sizes.

It's not that I'm afraid that 2 3/4 wouldn't work in the design. I am more afraid that 3inch wouldn't work in it. I am 98% sure that they would work fine though. I do wish I could say more about this "possible" trouble shooting. The position the shells are held aren't my concern. I have that worked out. What are the rounds that people have the most trouble with in the AGP, 3 inch. Length can change things. You will ultimately know within about 2 weeks if it will work with both 2 3/4 and 3 inch. I am going to try and get this worked out and still be on schedule. Remember, I allowed a little extra time until production than the mold shop said. Hopefully this doesn't use it all and something else come up. If I can't get it to reliable use both it will be a 2 3/4 only mag.

[MikeD 541]

I have an appointment with my tax man tomorrow morning. He has and is going to help me fill out he proper paper work to start a seperate company for the drum.

After that I am going to start work on the website for the drum. I have a girl helping me that does it for a living. She said for what it sounded like I wanted it shouldn't take but a day or 2 to set up something basic to start and could add to as I go. Hopefully it gets up soon. I might start taking preorders soon after the site is up.

[Veen 0]

As odd as it is, I honestly have LESS trouble firing 3" through my Saiga-12 regardless of magazine than I do 2.75". Of course that may be because I carved a functional barrel ramp into my barrel, but even full out supermagnum deer/caribou/bison loads that might be a bit longer than 3" seem to work fine, provided they actually will fit in the magazine. The only 3" I've had trouble with have been slugs, and it's just been because there's too much weight in the magazine for the next round to push up in time to get caught by the bolt.

 

In fact, if anything, that'd be my one suggestion to the design: Make sure that spring is freaking tough. If it will fit a full 3"/76mm round into the magwell, and the spring pushes it up into position fast enough to be resting there when the bolt slams forward a few milliseconds later, it should feed just fine. I just really wish someone made replacement AGP springs that were even stiffer than the ones in there now so that slugs would feed. I know it's not the angle, because on EVERY round I fire a slug, I pull the bolt back, and find an empty chamber. When I let it snap forward again, a slug loads flawlessly, giving me a semi-auto buckshot gun, but a straight pull bolt action slug gun

[joehilarious 0]

Not much activity on this particular forum today. I found some interesting reading:

 

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/today/0720.htm

 

 

Hopefully we can add another event to the list this year!

[MikeD 541]

Not much activity on this particular forum today. I found some interesting reading:

 

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/today/0720.htm

 

 

Hopefully we can add another event to the list this year!

Your someth'in else Joey!

[MikeD 541]

As odd as it is, I honestly have LESS trouble firing 3" through my Saiga-12 regardless of magazine than I do 2.75". Of course that may be because I carved a functional barrel ramp into my barrel, but even full out supermagnum deer/caribou/bison loads that might be a bit longer than 3" seem to work fine, provided they actually will fit in the magazine. The only 3" I've had trouble with have been slugs, and it's just been because there's too much weight in the magazine for the next round to push up in time to get caught by the bolt.

 

In fact, if anything, that'd be my one suggestion to the design: Make sure that spring is freaking tough. If it will fit a full 3"/76mm round into the magwell, and the spring pushes it up into position fast enough to be resting there when the bolt slams forward a few milliseconds later, it should feed just fine. I just really wish someone made replacement AGP springs that were even stiffer than the ones in there now so that slugs would feed. I know it's not the angle, because on EVERY round I fire a slug, I pull the bolt back, and find an empty chamber. When I let it snap forward again, a slug loads flawlessly, giving me a semi-auto buckshot gun, but a straight pull bolt action slug gun

One thing good about my design is you can adjust the spring tension. You can add or reduce tension. The spring is strong. And I will be able to offer extras for fairly cheap!

[Skull 0]

One thing good about my design is you can adjust the spring tension. You can add or reduce tension. The spring is strong. And I will be able to offer extras for fairly cheap!

That's a nice feature -- being able to tune it so it works the way a person wants is very cool.

[MikeD 541]

I just really wish someone made replacement AGP springs that were even stiffer than the ones in there now so that slugs would feed. (

 

AGP put the same size spring in the 10rder as a factory 8rder. The 10rder has a 25% larger load than a 8rder.... So the spring should be at least 25% longer or stronger.

[DevL 0]

I am only interested in 2 3/4" rounds. I am only interested in the product if it can use the LRBHO device without my having to mod it. A metal follower that will work the LRBHO and a mold set up for the LRBHO would be ideal. Everything else sounds ideal as far as your construction and design goes. Perhaps you could call Magpul and ask what materials and in what quantities they are making their Pmags from. They seem to be quite strong without the need for heavy metal reinforcement.

[MikeD 541]

I am only interested in 2 3/4" rounds. I am only interested in the product if it can use the LRBHO device without my having to mod it. A metal follower that will work the LRBHO and a mold set up for the LRBHO would be ideal. Everything else sounds ideal as far as your construction and design goes. Perhaps you could call Magpul and ask what materials and in what quantities they are making their Pmags from. They seem to be quite strong without the need for heavy metal reinforcement.

It would be very tricky to get it to activate the lrbho (i think). All you would have to do is remove the material on the mag just like the other mags you have done and it won't interfer with the device. I will look into the pmag material. The factory saiga mags material seem to be much stronger than the agp mags. Does anybody know what the russians use. Any plastic experts out there?

Edited April 26, 2007 by Mike Davidson

[TacticalResponse 0]

Mike its very difficult to come out with a new product like yours, that will not have some problems down the road unless it has years of testing. Will you be willing to admit any problems that your drum may have after their produced and sold unlike someone elses mags?

 

 

Will you be upfront with us regarding any needed changes?

[KyleWeiss 0]

A warranty/update program would be nice... How about beta testing it on a few folks? They can pay for it and keep it after so long, you know...

 

KW

[MikeD 541]

Mike its very difficult to come out with a new product like yours, that will not have some problems down the road unless it has years of testing. Will you be willing to admit any problems that your drum may have after their produced and sold unlike someone elses mags?

 

 

Will you be upfront with us regarding any needed changes?

I studied and studied it. I did a lot of trouble shooting with it. I have went over and through it until my eye crossed. Basically it has worked flawlessly from the begining. I went back over and improved areas that I thought might be issue after heavy use.. I am doing my very best to avoid future issues. Hopefully there won't be any, but I will admit them if they arise. If I didn't fell it was very, very reliable I wouldn't have went through with it before I figured out what could make it better. I know you all will be very impressed with the thought I put into this mag. The mold shop suggested some cost saving ideas with some of the hardware but I said "no". Because I felt the cost saving changes mentioned would have cheapened the drums quality. I told them I wanted to make the best product I could. And that the little saved wasn't worth what might be lost. I stressed to them that it needed to be as perfect as possible.

Oh yeah, Your old Saiga-12 has fired 20rd drums through it. Still have it. It's one of the only guns I have now.

[KyleWeiss 0]

Well I'm still open to Beta testing.

 

KW

[TacticalResponse 0]

Mike its very difficult to come out with a new product like yours, that will not have some problems down the road unless it has years of testing. Will you be willing to admit any problems that your drum may have after their produced and sold unlike someone elses mags?

 

 

Will you be upfront with us regarding any needed changes?

I studied and studied it. I did a lot of trouble shooting with it. I have went over and through it until my eye crossed. Basically it has worked flawlessly from the begining. I went back over and improved areas that I thought might be issue after heavy use.. I am doing my very best to avoid future issues. Hopefully there won't be any, but I will admit them if they arise. If I didn't fell it was very, very reliable I wouldn't have went through with it before I figured out what could make it better. I know you all will be very impressed with the thought I put into this mag. The mold shop suggested some cost saving ideas with some of the hardware but I said "no". Because I felt the cost saving changes mentioned would have cheapened the drums quality. I told them I wanted to make the best product I could. And that the little saved wasn't worth what might be lost. I stressed to them that it needed to be as perfect as possible.

Oh yeah, Your old Saiga-12 has fired 20rd drums through it. Still have it. It's one of the only guns I have now.

 

 

 

So the Saiga-12 that I sold you has been christened by your 20 rd drum. How Interesting!

Edited April 26, 2007 by TacticalResponse

[MikeD 541]

Mike its very difficult to come out with a new product like yours, that will not have some problems down the road unless it has years of testing. Will you be willing to admit any problems that your drum may have after their produced and sold unlike someone elses mags?

 

 

Will you be upfront with us regarding any needed changes?

I studied and studied it. I did a lot of trouble shooting with it. I have went over and through it until my eye crossed. Basically it has worked flawlessly from the begining. I went back over and improved areas that I thought might be issue after heavy use.. I am doing my very best to avoid future issues. Hopefully there won't be any, but I will admit them if they arise. If I didn't fell it was very, very reliable I wouldn't have went through with it before I figured out what could make it better. I know you all will be very impressed with the thought I put into this mag. The mold shop suggested some cost saving ideas with some of the hardware but I said "no". Because I felt the cost saving changes mentioned would have cheapened the drums quality. I told them I wanted to make the best product I could. And that the little saved wasn't worth what might be lost. I stressed to them that it needed to be as perfect as possible.

Oh yeah, Your old Saiga-12 has fired 20rd drums through it. Still have it. It's one of the only guns I have now.

 

 

 

So the Saiga-12 that I sold you has been christened by your 20 rd drum. How Interesting!

It was one of 6 saigas I tested it in. Just wanted to make sure I didn't make a drum that worked in one but in no others.

[K1196A 0]

I'd be happy to test it in a factory Saiga 12C for you!

[v188 5]

Mike,

 

I'm sure glad you're doing this!! I'm curious if you kept the emails from the initial posting you made here (the bashing thread) from those of us who were interested?

 

Kind of a early purchasers list, from those of us who sent you emails?

[Bvamp 604]

mike, a DBA here costs less than 20 dollars and is a common form at the DMV. just a heads up. it can easily be seperated in taxes, and your consultant that you use shoudl have zero problems accomodating it into your tax returns yearly.

 

 

I will use this opportunity, to communicate, that this forum will NEVER share information with anyone that is personal in nature about ANYONE without a WARRANT.

 

mike D had asked for said troll's information, rightfully, to understand if he was dealing with his competition in some shape or form. we do not share this information, nor can anyone buy it from us.

 

even if we hate you personally, (mcuzi is a good example), we wont give out your personal information, for any reason, and in any detail.

 

I can assure you though, mike D, that this troll you had there, isnt in the same state (from where they call in, that is) as the wraithmaker product owner. i have that guy's phone # if you want it, though, and that is pub. info, not board data.

[MikeD 541]

mike, a DBA here costs less than 20 dollars and is a common form at the DMV. just a heads up. it can easily be seperated in taxes, and your consultant that you use shoudl have zero problems accomodating it into your tax returns yearly.

 

 

I will use this opportunity, to communicate, that this forum will NEVER share information with anyone that is personal in nature about ANYONE without a WARRANT.

 

mike D had asked for said troll's information, rightfully, to understand if he was dealing with his competition in some shape or form. we do not share this information, nor can anyone buy it from us.

 

even if we hate you personally, (mcuzi is a good example), we wont give out your personal information, for any reason, and in any detail.

 

I can assure you though, mike D, that this troll you had there, isnt in the same state (from where they call in, that is) as the wraithmaker product owner. i have that guy's phone # if you want it, though, and that is pub. info, not board data.

I am glad that the troll isn't the WM maker. It sure seemed as such. I never wanted personal info, just was curious as to the city and state the troll was transmitting from. The troll put the midwest as his location and the WM guys are in a midwest state. There was a lot pointing to it. I am relieved though and thanks for clearing it up for me. It seems that Joe is just your typical troll and will be ignored as such.