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Spoke with Mike at Wraithmaker


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I am not a spokesman for Wraithmaker up front, but since I live so close to their shop I will likely be one of the first forum members to see one in person.

 

First of all, they are in possession of a letter from the ATF giving them full legal power to build and distribute their Saiga drum. It will soon be posted on their website. So the ultimate question on everyone's mind has been answered.

 

Second of all, the pictures make this thing look unwieldly, but from what Mike explained it is 6 and a half inches across. Not perfect, but not as bad as the pictures showed.

 

Third of all, I believe he said the weight to be about 3.5 pounds loaded, but I am not positive. This could be the unloaded weight. I believe I was still reeling from the fact he had a letter from the ATF giving their blessing.

 

Next, because of the overwhelming interest from their exploits at knob and from posts here they are making a 2 3/4 version only first with plans to later follow up with 3" and 20 gauge and 410 models.

 

Last of all, new pictures and video will be posted to their website shortly, possibly as early as tomorrow.

 

What they are saying to me is that they built this thing out of aluminum, first of all because it is what they know, but also because of longterm durability. Mike said that one of their prototype's just had 500 plus rounds of Federal "cheap stuff" run through it without a single hiccup. They were not aware of this forum and what a loyal following the Saiga has, but after talking with them a couple of times they plan to take a look at this sight and I believe start posting on their own. They seem to plan on staying in contact with me on their endeavors and with anyone else that directly contacts them. If questions are asked if I know the answer I will try and post, but this is more for comments than anything else.

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I am not a spokesman for Wraithmaker up front, but since I live so close to their shop I will likely be one of the first forum members to see one in person.

 

First of all, they are in possession of a letter from the ATF giving them full legal power to build and distribute their Saiga drum. It will soon be posted on their website. So the ultimate question on everyone's mind has been answered.

 

Second of all, the pictures make this thing look unwieldly, but from what Mike explained it is 6 and a half inches across. Not perfect, but not as bad as the pictures showed.

 

Third of all, I believe he said the weight to be about 3.5 pounds loaded, but I am not positive. This could be the unloaded weight. I believe I was still reeling from the fact he had a letter from the ATF giving their blessing.

 

Next, because of the overwhelming interest from their exploits at knob and from posts here they are making a 2 3/4 version only first with plans to later follow up with 3" and 20 gauge and 410 models.

 

Last of all, new pictures and video will be posted to their website shortly, possibly as early as tomorrow.

 

What they are saying to me is that they built this thing out of aluminum, first of all because it is what they know, but also because of longterm durability. Mike said that one of their prototype's just had 500 plus rounds of Federal "cheap stuff" run through it without a single hiccup. They were not aware of this forum and what a loyal following the Saiga has, but after talking with them a couple of times they plan to take a look at this sight and I believe start posting on their own. They seem to plan on staying in contact with me on their endeavors and with anyone else that directly contacts them. If questions are asked if I know the answer I will try and post, but this is more for comments than anything else.

Damn, His name is Mike too? This could get confusing.

Also, what did I tell you guys about the "new" ATF. They are on our side, for now at least.

Edited by Mike Davidson
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lets see this atf letter.

 

i bet the atf is lazy still, and wants to just ban it all.

 

my s12 will be out of NY state within the week. i wont be keeping a bill of sale, so fuck you very much. either a legitimate holder will have it, or it will go to a NY indian reservation, which you cannot enter for this violation. either way, they cant have it. if you dont like it, I will raise all issues from the past in court, as well as the new violation of my rights.

 

at any rate, i dont have to prove shit to anyone. :) and that is the best part.

 

so whats the letter say.....not like they cant do a two face, and change it. or like i really care at this point, for that matter. it is more of a curiosity call at this point with me, personally.

 

....

 

....

 

lets talk the hard facts here, people, and get it out in the open. id rather see a contributing member of this forum make a dime off the shit than some guy that thinks he has a new idea and capitolises on it make the buck.

 

lets go mike D.

 

where are they?

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lets see this atf letter.

 

i bet the atf is lazy still, and wants to just ban it all.

 

my s12 will be out of NY state within the week. i wont be keeping a bill of sale, so fuck you very much. either a legitimate holder will have it, or it will go to a NY indian reservation, which you cannot enter for this violation. either way, they cant have it. if you dont like it, I will raise all issues from the past in court, as well as the new violation of my rights.

 

at any rate, i dont have to prove shit to anyone. :) and that is the best part.

 

so whats the letter say.....not like they cant do a two face, and change it. or like i really care at this point, for that matter. it is more of a curiosity call at this point with me, personally.

 

....

 

....

 

lets talk the hard facts here, people, and get it out in the open. id rather see a contributing member of this forum make a dime off the shit than some guy that thinks he has a new idea and capitolises on it make the buck.

 

lets go mike D.

 

where are they?

Thanks for the support, Bvamp. It really, truely means a lot! :super: Damn good news. When the time comes for shipping, just let me know where in Flordia or where on the reservation. I want to make sure that the members here get the main supply of mine before they start going to the general population. I truely do hope that everything goes well and that noone loses their Saiga. Also, If you think I'm a contributor now, if this goes well, just wait. I won't count pennies and try to run. I'm here because I love this place.

Edited by Mike Davidson
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that has nothing to do with it mike, although I know you mean what you say, from speaking with you at length.

 

at least you tried to deal with the community.

 

maybe the other guy mighta been tossed out several years ago? BUT I DOUBT IT.

 

like i said, my shotgun is gone as of next week. where it went to and why i dont have a bill of sale is my problem, and it is not my responsibility.

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Lezze see...I had a letter from the ATF saying my Akins Stock was fine and dandy too....

$990 later, I have a stock that does nothing. I wouldn't count on anything thet say. Ever.

 

do you have a link to the letter specifically stating that the Akins 10/22 stock in the final design was accepted?

 

didn't think so.

 

caspian

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I'm not trying to dis you Mike, I like you in fact. I'm just saying I don't trust the BATFE as far as I can throw them.

I know what your saying. Just as they have changed in the past ffew yrs, they can change again. Esspecially if the right people get in power to push there views on them. Similar political matters is what brought the first classifications on the current DD's. But also the ATF did approve a USAS clone for production. We are in shakey time reguardless right now.

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Agreed!!!! Mike D supported me when I was looking for Hi Caps for my IPSC shooting competitions( I hate my other option of having to use a tube gun. They just outright suck compared to a Saiga.) so I plan on buying from him when his is available. We came to an agreeable deal and I have done much better in Multigun competition's since. As I explained to Mike D, though, is that the designer for the WM is only 60 miles from my front doorstep. You know what they say about curiousity and the cat. I have to at least see the thing and likely buy one, but I will still loyally buy from Mike D as well. Hell from what I understand is they were not even aware of this forum at WM. It would be nice if they became a contributor as well. Like I said in a previous post. This is no time to eat our own. In this case I mean gun owners should be sticking together. Also KY is pretty liberal. So if you need an anonymous shipper for an anonymous package feel free to PM me for a future purchase BVAMP. Does UPS have to deliver by horseback on a reservation???? LOL

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the last animal taken with my s12 before it is sent to la la land next week will be a fox. it is eating the neighbors cats, and I cannot have it killing and eating my big dog's pet cat. I think I ma have time to shoot that animal that is a plague on me and my land, before I am forced to be rid of it in NY. I wont post pics, as this wont be a food animal, and it will be killed accordingly with my s12. already spoke to the neighbors about a sudden gunshotin the night. the one guy aint too amused his cat got eaten by it.

 

 

....but what do I need this thing for anyhow.....its just an evil gun right? ESPECIALLY NOW that there will be a drum mag for it....OHHH.....ITS SO SCARY.

 

try to guess where it goes. Ill give you one hint. the new owner is a chief. try to steal it from him. it might not go over so well. but then again, you never know, I may not send it that direction, and just bury it in oil with my other stuff that you cannot have....

 

people think this is a fucking game or something.....mine is and has been currently transferred and sold. NO i dont keep bills of sale for guns I bought new. never have, never will. too bad. I wont reveal where it went.

 

I dont care which way it goes in the end. I WILL NOT BE TOLD what to do with my property, and belive me, Im prepared. and im all legal-like to boot.

 

I am so sick of this bullshit, you all have no idea. the guns I coulda bought and sold and profited from, but live in a facist state where i cant send them home, is really unbelieveable. ive already lost the right to free enterprise, free speech, and freedom from want.

 

whats a few more rights?

 

:) they cant have mine. like i said, it is gone and out of NY jurisdiction before apr 27 2007. Im not going to play games with it. this is something sacred to me, above god.

 

 

hey phil, you dont need to anon mail to me. I only use 20 round hungarian preban tanker mags (imported with the romanian rifle batches), and those are totally legal to bring into NY state, contrary to what some think. I can get them here for about 15 a pop, which is a bit high, but it is definate. so is ammo. I do appreciate the thought, though. I can manage it all legally and legitimately, no need for skirting the law on that, or much else.

 

I may also be running for a local public office, im that sick of it. go figure.

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... They were not aware of this forum and what a loyal following the Saiga has, but after talking with them a couple of times they plan to take a look at this sight and I believe start posting on their own. ...

 

Once they experience this site and see who their customers are, they will yank the plug on that project like they were starting a mower.

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... They were not aware of this forum and what a loyal following the Saiga has, but after talking with them a couple of times they plan to take a look at this sight and I believe start posting on their own. ...

 

Once they experience this site and see who their customers are, they will yank the plug on that project like they were starting a mower.

One might question their sanity I suppose!!!!!!

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... They were not aware of this forum and what a loyal following the Saiga has, but after talking with them a couple of times they plan to take a look at this sight and I believe start posting on their own. ...

 

Once they experience this site and see who their customers are, they will yank the plug on that project like they were starting a mower.

One might question their sanity I suppose!!!!!!

I'm not sure what you guys mean here. Could you elaborate? Sorry for the dumb question.

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... They were not aware of this forum and what a loyal following the Saiga has, but after talking with them a couple of times they plan to take a look at this sight and I believe start posting on their own. ...

 

Once they experience this site and see who their customers are, they will yank the plug on that project like they were starting a mower.

One might question their sanity I suppose!!!!!!

I'm not sure what you guys mean here. Could you elaborate? Sorry for the dumb question.

Hell I figure we are all just a little protective of our Saigas or am I the only one who sleeps with one?????LOL

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... They were not aware of this forum and what a loyal following the Saiga has, but after talking with them a couple of times they plan to take a look at this sight and I believe start posting on their own. ...

 

Once they experience this site and see who their customers are, they will yank the plug on that project like they were starting a mower.

One might question their sanity I suppose!!!!!!

I'm not sure what you guys mean here. Could you elaborate? Sorry for the dumb question.

Hell I figure we are all just a little protective of our Saigas or am I the only one who sleeps with one?????LOL

 

You are definatly not the only one. Mine always sleeps with me unless there is sexy female willing to be there instead. Then in which case the saiga sleeps wtihin reach under the bed, cocked and locked. I don't mind being single and having to sleep with my saiga, it keeps me safe and sane. Thats a lot more than I can say about most women I meet.

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I had a short conversation about the whole Akins stock thing at the creek. I'm still wondering what I'm going to do with those 30 or so high cap 10/22 magazines. At least I got to shoot it a couple of times before.....sob....the sky came falling down on the whole thing. You have to admit, it was fun while it lasted! As with anything, they can always reverse the decision on the thing. It really is just a very smart way of pulling the trigger really fast, but they are all independent trigger pulls, there is no question about that.

 

 

OH MY GOD. I just thought about it. If they reverse the decision, we can get a Saiga 12 Akins Accellerator made! :) Hahahaha. That would be fun. Maybe dangerous, but FUN!

Edited by Bullethose
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First of all, they are in possession of a letter from the ATF giving them full legal power to build and distribute their Saiga drum. It will soon be posted on their website. So the ultimate question on everyone's mind has been answered.

 

Assuming this letter exists, exactly what does it prove? Everybody has the "full legal power to build and distribute" magazines. That doesn't require ATF permission, or even an FFL. And as it stands right now there are no federal restrictions on magazine capacity, so it seems that this letter gives him permission to do something he doesn't need permission to do.

 

The question is whether or not the ATF will use the availability of these obviously LEGAL magazines to reclassify our beloved S12s. As I've said elsewhere the best thing we can do now is nothing. The worst thing we can do is pester the ATF about it. Let sleeping dogs lie.

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Lezze see...I had a letter from the ATF saying my Akins Stock was fine and dandy too....

$990 later, I have a stock that does nothing. I wouldn't count on anything thet say. Ever.

 

do you have a link to the letter specifically stating that the Akins 10/22 stock in the final design was accepted?

 

didn't think so.

 

caspian

http://www.firefaster.com/documentation.html

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http://www.wraithmaker.com

 

New videos of the WM actually working!!! They updated their site today and posted videos and new pics. It seems they have a very good working drum. Mike @ WM is going to keep me posted on what is going on with these things on a regular basis, but it seems the 2 3/4 is ready to go.

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I was thiinking today and it occured to me. Did you know that a patent doesn't make it illegal to reproduce or copy something. Ot only makes it illegal to reproduce it and sell it. The crafty would be able to copy the metal drum even though it has a patent. You could never legally sell it though. I'm not sure if you are allowed to give it away or if the maker has to keep possesion.

I know people that have built exact replicals of log splitters and looked into it first.

Edited by Mike Davidson
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I think it applies to improvements or slight alterations of a simular product. Example : S&W got sued by Glock for their production of the Sigma. It was an exact copy of the gun. Glock won the case. It was so close that you could swap from the Sigma to the Glock and it would still fit and function. And now they(major manufactures) are all close, but nothing exact. I don't want to wander. Hope that came out O.K.

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I think it applies to improvements or slight alterations of a simular product. Example : S&W got sued by Glock for their production of the Sigma. It was an exact copy of the gun. Glock won the case. It was so close that you could swap from the Sigma to the Glock and it would still fit and function. And now they(major manufactures) are all close, but nothing exact. I don't want to wander. Hope that came out O.K.

But they were offering it for sale. As long as you don't sell it you can make something that is patented. I'm talking about the few that have the access to machinery, time and skill to make a couple extra for personal use. If you had the time or know-how you could make your own anything from the raw. Cars, trucks, equipment................. Crazy but true.

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I was thiinking today and it occured to me. Did you know that a patent doesn't make it illegal to reproduce or copy something. Ot only makes it illegal to reproduce it and sell it. The crafty would be able to copy the metal drum even though it has a patent. You could never legally sell it though. I'm not sure if you are allowed to give it away or if the maker has to keep possesion.

I know people that have built exact replicals of log splitters and looked into it first.

It depends on how it is patented.

 

There is clearly prior art on a shotgun drum magazine, so that wouldn't work.

 

The assembly of the pieces as a drum could be patented, but a slick businessman with a good lawyer could manufacture very similar parts and sell them as an unassembled kit.

 

The specific case of a drum magazine for a Saiga 12 model shotgun could be patented, but Halo can demonstrate prior art with their prototype to invalidate that.

 

Most likely, there's no way Wraithmaker can patent their drum in a way that could affect yours.

 

The only patent they would be awarded would be for a drum magazine constructed like theirs.

 

But, and most importantly, I am not a lawyer, just an engineer that's been through this grind before.

Edited by Skull
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part of this forum is to allow freedom of speech. so I wont outright ban skull and his lame attempts at undermining us here....

 

BUT..

 

patents are clear. you obviously dont know shit about the patent and trademark industry, skull. dont pretend that you do.

 

next, it is called CLAIMS, dipshit. whatd u just call it? ART? LOL. give me a break. Ill put you right on top of my list of people to ask about copyright and patent infringement the next time it comes up. Ill get right on top of that. YEH. ok.

 

no, the assmebly of pieces can NOT be patented, only the process in which they are assembled. you are not doing anything new to the patent office in your manufaturing process, so that cannot be trademarked or copywritten, or patented. go spend another couple grand to be refused at the patent office.

 

next line, skull, LOL. you are real smart with the patents are ya? sure dont fuckin sound like it, asshole.

 

I can clearly see what is patented in the wraithmaker, as well as how to shut them down in about two seconds. not sure what planet you are living on skull, but its plain and simple, from here, and im not the only one who sees it, at least in part. you address two things, and both are extreme bullshit in what you are saying. you obviously never held a patent before.

 

the only pzatent what? OH yer an expert now. you have no idea what the patent was on. I already looked up the application at the patent office (yes you can do that, knowitall), and it is nothing major that will stop ANYONE, including Mike Davidson. I will add right now that we here gave him the go-ahead on his design.

 

you arent a lawyer. you sound like an engineer thats been working for someone else for too long, however. I make calls on jobs here in my chosen industry that REQUIRE an ENGINEER, and it AINT THAT DIFFICULT. in my past lines of work, I have MADE THE CALL TOO. what are you saying? you arent but you are some kind of expert? give me a break.

 

skull, you are a fucking idiot. NICE signature line, by the way.

 

you have NO CLUE is what all your speech amounts to.

 

 

I wont ban you for what you say and how you piss ME off, but I cant say the same for some of the other moderators, and what they would do. however, if you want to be a dick, I will wait for opportunities like this, and no, im not explaining SHIT to you, to start right in with you until your bullshit signature line is removed BY YOU. you are more than welcome here. but you are still full of yourself, and full of shit. everything you said in your last post is an uniformed line of GARBAGE. I will post it here past this point in case you do not remember what it was exactly that you said:

It depends on how it is patented.

 

There is clearly prior art on a shotgun drum magazine, so that wouldn't work.

 

The assembly of the pieces as a drum could be patented, but a slick businessman with a good lawyer could manufacture very similar parts and sell them as an unassembled kit.

 

The specific case of a drum magazine for a Saiga 12 model shotgun could be patented, but Halo can demonstrate prior art with their prototype to invalidate that.

 

Most likely, there's no way Wraithmaker can patent their drum in a way that could affect yours.

 

The only patent they would be awarded would be for a drum magazine constructed like theirs.

 

But, and most importantly, I am not a lawyer, just an engineer that's been through this grind before.

 

 

wamnna be a knowitall dick? fine. you should make sure you know what in fuck all you are talking about first before doing so, however. whats next? want to pick my spellink apart and my grammar? go for it. I got thick skin, and remember whos house you are in, is my advice.

 

I get ONE complaint about you from a serviceman, veteran, or LEO, yer gone. you already used up your grace with me, willingly. attack me all you want. them? haw. I know you wont be able to help yourself. go ahead, go for it.

 

I do want you to enter our community, but I will not put up with these attacks and underming high school girl bullshits. I dont have a problem disagreeing with you, but I wont have you continue in your pursuit of defamation. I dont care if you talk shit about me, and some people to an extent, because we all should be able to do that, but you will overstep your bounds soon, and when you do, if you continue your current TROLL couse, I will remove you. and dont doubt that we can get rid of you.

 

if you continue to act as an enemy to the forum, you will be moderated. you dont want that, do you? you keep coming back, so I think I already know the answer. keep going the way that you have been, and we WILL get rid of you.

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No one ever doubted the legality of drums, everyone was worried that after the drums started being produced, ATF would declare the saiga a DD.

 

This wouldnt make anything illegal per se, but it would make saigas illegal to import and it would kill the saiga market in this country.

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I was thiinking today and it occured to me. Did you know that a patent doesn't make it illegal to reproduce or copy something. Ot only makes it illegal to reproduce it and sell it. The crafty would be able to copy the metal drum even though it has a patent. You could never legally sell it though. I'm not sure if you are allowed to give it away or if the maker has to keep possesion.

I know people that have built exact replicals of log splitters and looked into it first.

It depends on how it is patented.

 

There is clearly prior art on a shotgun drum magazine, so that wouldn't work.

 

The assembly of the pieces as a drum could be patented, but a slick businessman with a good lawyer could manufacture very similar parts and sell them as an unassembled kit.

 

The specific case of a drum magazine for a Saiga 12 model shotgun could be patented, but Halo can demonstrate prior art with their prototype to invalidate that.

 

Most likely, there's no way Wraithmaker can patent their drum in a way that could affect yours.

 

The only patent they would be awarded would be for a drum magazine constructed like theirs.

 

But, and most importantly, I am not a lawyer, just an engineer that's been through this grind before.

I am definitely no lawyer, but I think it would be patent infringement only if parts were directly interchangeable and it looks the exact same. Yours is totally different material. Hell I bet the only thing that will be interchangeable will be the feed lips. On a side note what does everyone think of the video? If they let me post a video with it I am going to see if I can beat that Tom Knapp guy and shoot 20 Clay birds in 20 Shots!!!! LOL I do know that when I get a chance I am going to run a whole mag of low recoil slugs through it at an IPSC body target.

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