Jump to content

Spoke with Mike at Wraithmaker


Recommended Posts

I was thiinking today and it occured to me. Did you know that a patent doesn't make it illegal to reproduce or copy something. Ot only makes it illegal to reproduce it and sell it. The crafty would be able to copy the metal drum even though it has a patent. You could never legally sell it though. I'm not sure if you are allowed to give it away or if the maker has to keep possesion.

I know people that have built exact replicals of log splitters and looked into it first.

It depends on how it is patented.

 

There is clearly prior art on a shotgun drum magazine, so that wouldn't work.

 

The assembly of the pieces as a drum could be patented, but a slick businessman with a good lawyer could manufacture very similar parts and sell them as an unassembled kit.

 

The specific case of a drum magazine for a Saiga 12 model shotgun could be patented, but Halo can demonstrate prior art with their prototype to invalidate that.

 

Most likely, there's no way Wraithmaker can patent their drum in a way that could affect yours.

 

The only patent they would be awarded would be for a drum magazine constructed like theirs.

 

But, and most importantly, I am not a lawyer, just an engineer that's been through this grind before.

I'm not worried about the patent issue. The design is very different than mine.

Also about copying it, I mean for pursonal use. Surely if someone made their design and started selling it they would get their ass sued off. But if you worked at a cnc shop or owned one or something, you could make your self a couple for personal use with out being sued or breaking any laws. Just as long as you don't sell them.

Link to post
Share on other sites

it is the stipulation "generally availible to the open market" when the DD issue IS called up.....FYI

 

 

as for the 20 clay thing, well that would be SPORTING, you would clearly be COMPETING. me myself, i prefer the overhead full beer can levitating and then taking off straight up for that whole deal. mcuhb more fun and way more laughs when it is raining beer and lead (what goes up, must come down, and its only small lead shot)

 

 

mike D: you tell em. the drum thing is all YOU. go right with it, man. at least you dealt with us somewhat. none of the rest even TRIED to. we wont forget it here, and we are right there with you. git er dun.

Link to post
Share on other sites
next, it is called CLAIMS, dipshit. whatd u just call it? ART? LOL. give me a break.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prior_art

 

no, the assmebly of pieces can NOT be patented, only the process in which they are assembled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention

 

the only pzatent what? OH yer an expert now. you have no idea what the patent was on. I already looked up the application at the patent office (yes you can do that, knowitall), and it is nothing major that will stop ANYONE, including Mike Davidson. I will add right now that we here gave him the go-ahead on his design.

Uh. I was addressing possible issues that MikeD might encounter. But you're kinda losing track of the discussion at hand. I'm kinda worried about you.

 

skull, you are a fucking idiot. NICE signature line, by the way.

Thank you. I'm sorta keeping a log of people coming unhinged over this whole drum thing. I don't want people to forget and later try to deny what was said.

 

wamnna be a knowitall dick? fine. you should make sure you know what in fuck all you are talking about first before doing so, however. whats next? want to pick my spellink apart and my grammar? go for it. I got thick skin, and remember whos house you are in, is my advice.

I don't need to attack you. You're doing a marvelous job all by yourself.

 

I get ONE complaint about you from a serviceman, veteran, or LEO, yer gone. you already used up your grace with me, willingly. attack me all you want. them? haw. I know you wont be able to help yourself. go ahead, go for it.

I work with veterans and servicemen every day, and I like them. I'm not sure why you think I'd go after anyone. I really only have a bone to pick with people that threaten to collaborate with the ATF in depriving us of our God-given rights, people that threaten other folks with bodily harm for the imagined crime of developing a cool accessory for a cool gun, and people that continue to abuse the phrase "begs the question".

 

I wont have you continue in your pursuit of defamation.

How have I defamed anyone? Quoting words they've actually posted is defamation? I apologize to anyone I've defamed, but that isn't you, Ben.

 

if you continue to act as an enemy to the forum, you will be moderated. you dont want that, do you? you keep coming back, so I think I already know the answer. keep going the way that you have been, and we WILL get rid of you.

There's nothing I can do to stop moderators from doing whatever they wish, but everyone else will witness what takes place -- many will agree with you, but many won't. I'm no enemy to the forum or anyone else.

 

you obviously never held a patent before.

I do only hold one patent, at present. A handful more have gone so far as to be filed, but I doubt anything will come of them. Still, large corporations felt they had enough value to go to the trouble.

 

Really, though. With the vehemence of your posts and the degeneration of your spelling and writing skills of late, I'm kinda worried that you may be nearing a stress-related meltdown. Perhaps you should consider taking a deep breath and a step back to gain some perspective.

 

everything you said in your last post is an uniformed line of GARBAGE.

Maybe, but I was just trying to be helpful.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Mike D, I dont' know too much about the business of patent infringement, but it does seem you are in the clear. If you were up against a big company, they might try to bury you with a case you couldn't defend, but these don't seem to be that type (cut-throat, rat racers).

 

B,

Why not contribute to the discussion. Found the Patent from Wraithmaker, Great. Why not share a link to this public information. I'm guessing it's a good read. I couldn't find it, (tho the patents from KNOX are cool). I'm guessing my search didn't find pending applications?

 

Now, back to the subject of this thread. Those videos are HOT! Mike D. I'm afraid you have some serious competion on your hands.

 

My guess? It's going to be:

 

Sooner, Stronger vs Closed body, Less expensive, smaller, large production cycles.

 

 

Looks like the WM will work in mag wells (eventually someone will provide these). Not sure if the LRBHO would be compatable.

 

 

As a side note, I'm really liking the look of the open body! I don't buy things based on looks, performance is number one key factor, but that just looks .... Awesome!

 

Open body should be easier to gunk up, and to clean.

 

Edited: Skul you beat me to it with these points, I was just closing this reply only to start a new thread called BVamps dillusions, or something. Agree with EVERY point you made, some of them I had typed up almost verbatem :)

 

Vamp, the "ban" threats are getting old. Don't like the words in the sig line? Then don't print them to start with. You've totally done a flip flop, and got called down on it. FWIW, I think the original "anti drum" stance was wrong and I'm glad the forum leadership has (grudgingly) come around to a better position.

Edited by kmoore
Link to post
Share on other sites

You guys are kidding yourselves if you think any of these ideas would be patentable. Unless you come up with a new drum design rather than adapting old designs to new calibers, it fails due to prior art and obviousness. The only mag designs I can think of that could be patentable in recent memory are:

-90 round AR snail drums

-that top mount mag for the P90

-windable chinese drums (patent expired by now)

-beta mag (patent expired by now I think)

-calico rotary mags (expired by now)

 

All of the other drums I have seen look like they are based off WWII era designs. Nothing wrong with that, just means you can't patent it.

Edited by beerslurpy
Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm afraid you have some serious competion on your hands.

Competition is good for the market (not so much for the marketers, sometimes -- ha). I'm figuring Mike's setup is the more practical if that word even applies to a 12ga drum, but the Wraithmaker is quite Terminator-esque. I'll probably have to have both. :)

Link to post
Share on other sites
kmoore, he dont HAVE a patent. patent pending is a totally different thing.

 

So where did you find it?

 

Beer, search googles online patent stuff, you'll find the knoxx and a couple of others.

 

One thing for sure, I don't think the average man can read a patent and really know what's covered or not, anymore. There are whole legal departments that argue over what is is, and gigantic court cases that ultimately determine how they apply.

 

I'm supposed to be on one patent myself, but after I gave the corporate lawyers diagrams and descriptions, I dropped off of the process and have NO CLUE of all the behind the scene stuff that followed.

 

That begs the question, did I really get on the patent after all ..... Sorry Skul, couldn't resist.

 

Edited to add:

"I already looked up the application at the patent office " Vamp, This is what I'm looking for a link for.

Edited by kmoore
Link to post
Share on other sites

I posted a direct link to the PATENT PENDING pub search link for a simple search of shotgun in the patent application.

 

none show from his town, nor do any show for any other thing i put in.

 

it is bullshit. patent pending for WHAT, nothing to do with a SHOTGUN i can tell.

 

its probably some patent on whatever that has shit to do with shells, mags, and firearms. which dont mean a hell of a lot.

 

 

skull, you are one post from being kicked the fuck out of here. dont quote wikipedia when im looking at the US patent office, thanks. just some advice.

 

either back off, or im going to toss your trolling ass out. you dont even know what you are talking about, to boot. why should i listen to your shit anymore? give me a single reason that makes sense and is real....

 

I gave you a day, and there you are doing the same shit. pick one. either you like it here and will cut out the trolling bullshit and flaming of people here in your signature line, or you can leave.

 

im tired of people like you. you will leave in time, and ill just have to be pissed off. i dont think so. get with the program, or you will find yourself posting this bullshit and being banned on barf.com.

Link to post
Share on other sites

oh wait a second, skull, you are keeping a LOG? LOL. yer gone. just for that. fuck you. you have abused our gracious priledge we gave you here long enough. your post is a bunch of bullshit links that anyone can search up. wikipedia, huh? why not THE PATENT OFFICE INSTEAD.

 

dude, yer gone for one week. if you dont change the signature line when you return, it will be a month, and after that, yer gone for good. im tired of people like you.

 

exactly what have you shared or helped with? give me a break, skull. those of you that know my name, look it up in the patent office. ive been fucked. i know better for next time now, and Im not listening to these half-knowing people ANY more. f u skull. get the fuck out. come back next week.

Link to post
Share on other sites

"Skull's warning level has been adjusted successfully and the action logged"

 

one week for him. Im tired of these knowitall fools that dont seem to know fuck all.

 

I dont mind providing an occasional link to people like kmoore, but this guy? I have to go look up each and every fucking detail and then some. fuck that. when they are wrong? why should i do 100/hr work for free for someone who just trolls? give me a break.

 

one week ban. he is welcome back, but hes gonna have to sit out of the room for a week, even if he can still read here. im sick of this bullshit.

 

I think while im at it, Im going to reinstate the edit button thing to 1 week.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I was thiinking today and it occured to me. Did you know that a patent doesn't make it illegal to reproduce or copy something. Ot only makes it illegal to reproduce it and sell it. The crafty would be able to copy the metal drum even though it has a patent. You could never legally sell it though. I'm not sure if you are allowed to give it away or if the maker has to keep possesion.

I know people that have built exact replicals of log splitters and looked into it first.

It depends on how it is patented.

 

There is clearly prior art on a shotgun drum magazine, so that wouldn't work.

 

The assembly of the pieces as a drum could be patented, but a slick businessman with a good lawyer could manufacture very similar parts and sell them as an unassembled kit.

 

The specific case of a drum magazine for a Saiga 12 model shotgun could be patented, but Halo can demonstrate prior art with their prototype to invalidate that.

 

Most likely, there's no way Wraithmaker can patent their drum in a way that could affect yours.

 

The only patent they would be awarded would be for a drum magazine constructed like theirs.

 

But, and most importantly, I am not a lawyer, just an engineer that's been through this grind before.

I am definitely no lawyer, but I think it would be patent infringement only if parts were directly interchangeable and it looks the exact same. Yours is totally different material. Hell I bet the only thing that will be interchangeable will be the feed lips. On a side note what does everyone think of the video? If they let me post a video with it I am going to see if I can beat that Tom Knapp guy and shoot 20 Clay birds in 20 Shots!!!! LOL I do know that when I get a chance I am going to run a whole mag of low recoil slugs through it at an IPSC body target.

 

Here is the link to the video.

 

When you put your slugs through it, make sure you get a video. That would be great!

Link to post
Share on other sites
Lezze see...I had a letter from the ATF saying my Akins Stock was fine and dandy too....

$990 later, I have a stock that does nothing. I wouldn't count on anything thet say. Ever.

 

do you have a link to the letter specifically stating that the Akins 10/22 stock in the final design was accepted?

 

didn't think so.

 

caspian

Actually, I have it on their letter head in my files. If you'd like a copy of it. Send me your address.

Edited by warthog
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey guys! I sent off a USPS MO to pre-order a Wraithmaker yesterday. I emailed and asked last week if it would work with 2 3/4" shells and he came back with an email, saying "Due to the overwhelming response for 2 3/4", that they would start with that size and mine would be 2 3/4".

 

I haven't been able to spend as much time here lately, and hadn't been aware of the "turn around" in opinion here over the drum thing. But I hope to pick up one from Mike Davidson as well, as soon as they're available. Mike at WM says he anticipates a 30-45 day delivery on mine. I'll let you guys know how it works! B)

Edited by badman400
Link to post
Share on other sites
kmoore, he dont HAVE a patent. patent pending is a totally different thing.

 

So where did you find it?

 

Beer, search googles online patent stuff, you'll find the knoxx and a couple of others.

 

One thing for sure, I don't think the average man can read a patent and really know what's covered or not, anymore. There are whole legal departments that argue over what is is, and gigantic court cases that ultimately determine how they apply.

 

I'm supposed to be on one patent myself, but after I gave the corporate lawyers diagrams and descriptions, I dropped off of the process and have NO CLUE of all the behind the scene stuff that followed.

 

That begs the question, did I really get on the patent after all ..... Sorry Skul, couldn't resist.

 

Edited to add:

"I already looked up the application at the patent office " Vamp, This is what I'm looking for a link for.

 

Patent pending status isn't available to the public for 18 months.

I know this due to a previous provisional patent I filed for,so depending on when they filed it could be a while befor anyone could see it.

But the Videos Rock!!!

Link to post
Share on other sites
First of all, they are in possession of a letter from the ATF giving them full legal power to build and distribute their Saiga drum. It will soon be posted on their website. So the ultimate question on everyone's mind has been answered.

 

 

All they posted on their site was

 

Do you have B.A.T.F. approval?

Yes. We received a written approval after a verbal inquiry. This was our very first move in this project. http://www.wraithmaker.com/index.htm

 

 

As much as I would love to have an upgrade to firepower like they are offering, the Atkins fiasco kind of demonstrates that the alphabet boys are still not going to allow this to happen for very long.

A letter advising wraithmaker that they can build drums legally does not mean that use of their product is also not subject to policy changes at the ATF. Have fun while it lasts because we are about to experience a rude awakening.

Link to post
Share on other sites
As much as I would love to have an upgrade to firepower like they are offering, the Atkins fiasco kind of demonstrates that the alphabet boys are still not going to allow this to happen for very long.

A letter advising wraithmaker that they can build drums legally does not mean that use of their product is also not subject to policy changes at the ATF. Have fun while it lasts because we are about to experience a rude awakening.

Certainly possible, but I think the thing that doomed the Akins was a normal joe would see the thing work and say .... "that's a mg". Regardless of the technicalities of the mechanism. Also, I don't know enough about the mechanism, but if it used the recoil/momentum to help pull the trigger fast, I'd guess that it could have been adapted to ANY OTHER FIREARM. I thought about akins for the 10/22, but it would be a NO BRAINER for a version that would work on AR-15's, FAL's, AK47's etc. So, we'd effectively be putting Assault weapons (with the actual correct use of that term!!) into the populace for 1K a stock. Now that I think of this it makes me sick that they changed thier mind.

 

The Drum doesn't have the same set of problems. Not like the avg Joe is going to say ... "That shotty isn't a sporting purpose shotty". That term isn't really defined anywhere. Could it, sure, I wouldn't bet a million $ against it. But I don't find it likely. If anything, I think it's more likely that sweeping legislation could come in 2008 if elections go bad, and the S12 becomes verbotten along with many other firearms. If that happens (really up to the voters and our political activism) then the NLFD won't have made any difference ...

 

BTW, I'd love to hear what current owners are supposed to do with akins stocks?, Are they supposed to dismantle them, destroy them?? Or did Akins offer a buyback? It would be cool if the ATF owned up to their mistake and allowed the existing stocks onto the MG registry as a one time exception. But I'm sensing from a few comments that it's verbotten, but still owned. Meaning they don't enforce their "constructive intent" reasoning on them. If you dont' want to steer the thread off course, A PM or seperate thread would be appreciated.

 

All IMO, YMMV, etc

Link to post
Share on other sites
As much as I would love to have an upgrade to firepower like they are offering, the Atkins fiasco kind of demonstrates that the alphabet boys are still not going to allow this to happen for very long.

A letter advising wraithmaker that they can build drums legally does not mean that use of their product is also not subject to policy changes at the ATF. Have fun while it lasts because we are about to experience a rude awakening.

Certainly possible, but I think the thing that doomed the Akins was a normal joe would see the thing work and say .... "that's a mg". Regardless of the technicalities of the mechanism. Also, I don't know enough about the mechanism, but if it used the recoil/momentum to help pull the trigger fast, I'd guess that it could have been adapted to ANY OTHER FIREARM. I thought about akins for the 10/22, but it would be a NO BRAINER for a version that would work on AR-15's, FAL's, AK47's etc. So, we'd effectively be putting Assault weapons (with the actual correct use of that term!!) into the populace for 1K a stock. Now that I think of this it makes me sick that they changed thier mind.

 

The Drum doesn't have the same set of problems. Not like the avg Joe is going to say ... "That shotty isn't a sporting purpose shotty". That term isn't really defined anywhere. Could it, sure, I wouldn't bet a million $ against it. But I don't find it likely. If anything, I think it's more likely that sweeping legislation could come in 2008 if elections go bad, and the S12 becomes verbotten along with many other firearms. If that happens (really up to the voters and our political activism) then the NLFD won't have made any difference ...

 

BTW, I'd love to hear what current owners are supposed to do with akins stocks?, Are they supposed to dismantle them, destroy them?? Or did Akins offer a buyback? It would be cool if the ATF owned up to their mistake and allowed the existing stocks onto the MG registry as a one time exception. But I'm sensing from a few comments that it's verbotten, but still owned. Meaning they don't enforce their "constructive intent" reasoning on them. If you dont' want to steer the thread off course, A PM or seperate thread would be appreciated.

 

All IMO, YMMV, etc

 

They keep the stock and send in the spring to the ATF

http://www.atf.gov/alcohol/info/revrule/ru...6-2_q_and_a.pdf

Edited by my762buzz
Link to post
Share on other sites
As much as I would love to have an upgrade to firepower like they are offering, the Atkins fiasco kind of demonstrates that the alphabet boys are still not going to allow this to happen for very long.

A letter advising wraithmaker that they can build drums legally does not mean that use of their product is also not subject to policy changes at the ATF. Have fun while it lasts because we are about to experience a rude awakening.

Certainly possible, but I think the thing that doomed the Akins was a normal joe would see the thing work and say .... "that's a mg". Regardless of the technicalities of the mechanism. Also, I don't know enough about the mechanism, but if it used the recoil/momentum to help pull the trigger fast, I'd guess that it could have been adapted to ANY OTHER FIREARM. I thought about akins for the 10/22, but it would be a NO BRAINER for a version that would work on AR-15's, FAL's, AK47's etc. So, we'd effectively be putting Assault weapons (with the actual correct use of that term!!) into the populace for 1K a stock. Now that I think of this it makes me sick that they changed thier mind.

 

The Drum doesn't have the same set of problems. Not like the avg Joe is going to say ... "That shotty isn't a sporting purpose shotty". That term isn't really defined anywhere. Could it, sure, I wouldn't bet a million $ against it. But I don't find it likely. If anything, I think it's more likely that sweeping legislation could come in 2008 if elections go bad, and the S12 becomes verbotten along with many other firearms. If that happens (really up to the voters and our political activism) then the NLFD won't have made any difference ...

 

BTW, I'd love to hear what current owners are supposed to do with akins stocks?, Are they supposed to dismantle them, destroy them?? Or did Akins offer a buyback? It would be cool if the ATF owned up to their mistake and allowed the existing stocks onto the MG registry as a one time exception. But I'm sensing from a few comments that it's verbotten, but still owned. Meaning they don't enforce their "constructive intent" reasoning on them. If you dont' want to steer the thread off course, A PM or seperate thread would be appreciated.

 

All IMO, YMMV, etc

 

They keep the stock and send in the spring to the ATF

http://www.atf.gov/alcohol/info/revrule/ru...6-2_q_and_a.pdf

is there a site that shows said akins... i would like to see it as i know only what i've heard of it in this forum

Link to post
Share on other sites
Lezze see...I had a letter from the ATF saying my Akins Stock was fine and dandy too....

$990 later, I have a stock that does nothing. I wouldn't count on anything thet say. Ever.

 

do you have a link to the letter specifically stating that the Akins 10/22 stock in the final design was accepted?

 

didn't think so.

 

caspian

Actually, I have it on their letter head in my files. If you'd like a copy of it. Send me your address.

 

you should send it to the folks at the Akins group. It would help their legal fight. The only letters they have specifies one designed for the SKS.

 

How about uploading it to a free pict site.

 

Caspian

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Chatbox

    Load More
    You don't have permission to chat.
×
×
  • Create New...