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Christianity cannot be forced upon anyone, and I believe that what is often mistaken for this is the obligation that Christians have to spread God's word, and message. It is not being forced, it is being suggested. Alot has changed since the reign of the church of England.

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wow, this thing has gone off topic nicely :)

 

I don't know of one single Christian in this country that wants a theocracy. But, having said that, this country was founded by Christians with Christian values.

euhm, isn't that claim a bit extreme?

 

as far as i know, the majority of your socalled founding fathers were not Christians (an sich).

a quick list (might be some errors, but excuse me for not being an expert in the history of the USA):

- Unitarian: John Adams, Daniel Webster, John C. Calhoun

- Deist: Thomas Jefferson

- Anglican/Episcopal/Deist (what a mix/evolution...): George Washington

- Episcopalian: James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay

- Presbyterian: Andrew Jackson

- Baptist: Henry Clay

- unsure: Benjamin Franklin

 

so, that's at least two that are Deists and hence can't be Christians at the same time.

 

but does it matter if they shared your exact same faith? not really, since they defended (mostly) the same morals and ideals as you do.

 

This is a Christian nation.

that even goes one step further. how can a nation that has freedom of religion and has seperation between church and state be a "christian nation"?

 

(unless you simply mean by that that the majority of the inhabitants are christian, which would be correct since 76.7% of American adults identify themselves as being Christian)

 

And would someone please show me the separtaion of church and state in the Constitution? Far as I've seen, it's a letter Jefferson wrote to the Baptist church. The reason for the letter was to calm their fears of ONE church running the State.

that can easily be reversed: how about you show us where it says in the constitution that the USA is a christian nation. ;)

 

But others praying has NEVER bothered me. You idiot atheists need to grow thicker skin. No one has ever been harmed by being in the same room with someone that is praying. GET OVER IT!!!

sjeez... should i feel insulted?

 

i'm an atheist, but it doesn't bother me if people pray. or wear red clown noses for their religious beliefs...

 

what are you getting so pumped up about, Racegal?

 

This country WAS founded on Christianity, Christian beliefs, and values. Do you think that the creators of the Constitution intended for it to be amended to death, and bastardized the way that it has?

well, see above. values: yes (most values are universal, regardless of religion), beliefs: perhaps, christianity: not really.

 

as for the socalled bastardisation: humans are imperfect beings. do you intend to tell me that these founding fathers of yours were so smart that they could forsee every law ever needed and every interpretation from their time to centuries later? of course things will be modified and updated... due to this same human imperfection new laws will sometimes screw the pooch & fuck up. shit happens.

 

same goes with everything known to man. religion for example. it took 3 to 4 centuries after the death of Christ to write the bible & in the meanwhile we're editing whatever we please. the pope for instance just decided that unbaptised children no longer go to *cant remember the name, that thing before hell but not quite hell* but to heaven instead. hooray for public relations decisions.

 

the Quran (Koran? Coran?) took for instance 25 years to write, and Mohammed was illiterate (as was Jesus). the Quran states that everything in it should be judged by the current (for us 'modern') context, not the one centuries ago. not bad for a prophet, huh?

 

in terms of weapons, you could say some stuff is good and universal. take a 1911 or an M2. those concepts have lived for a century and have only been modified little. on the other hand, you have stuff like an M1 carbine that was in desperate need to be updated to modern standards & was thrown out for something new, something better suited for the modern times.

 

either way, you improvise, addapt, overcome. it's the human way of life. ;)

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wow, this thing has gone off topic nicely :)

 

I don't know of one single Christian in this country that wants a theocracy. But, having said that, this country was founded by Christians with Christian values.

euhm, isn't that claim a bit extreme?

 

as far as i know, the majority of your socalled founding fathers were not Christians (an sich).

a quick list (might be some errors, but excuse me for not being an expert in the history of the USA):

- Unitarian: John Adams, Daniel Webster, John C. Calhoun

- Deist: Thomas Jefferson

- Anglican/Episcopal/Deist (what a mix/evolution...): George Washington

- Episcopalian: James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay

- Presbyterian: Andrew Jackson

- Baptist: Henry Clay

- unsure: Benjamin Franklin

 

so, that's at least two that are Deists and hence can't be Christians at the same time.

 

but does it matter if they shared your exact same faith? not really, since they defended (mostly) the same morals and ideals as you do.

 

This is a Christian nation.

that even goes one step further. how can a nation that has freedom of religion and has seperation between church and state be a "christian nation"?

 

(unless you simply mean by that that the majority of the inhabitants are christian, which would be correct since 76.7% of American adults identify themselves as being Christian)

 

Yes, that's exactly what I mean although the number I heard was 85%. Either way, most people that live in this country consider themselves Christians.

 

And would someone please show me the separtaion of church and state in the Constitution? Far as I've seen, it's a letter Jefferson wrote to the Baptist church. The reason for the letter was to calm their fears of ONE church running the State.

that can easily be reversed: how about you show us where it says in the constitution that the USA is a christian nation. ;)

 

See above. :)

 

But others praying has NEVER bothered me. You idiot atheists need to grow thicker skin. No one has ever been harmed by being in the same room with someone that is praying. GET OVER IT!!!

sjeez... should i feel insulted?

 

i'm an atheist, but it doesn't bother me if people pray. or wear red clown noses for their religious beliefs...

 

what are you getting so pumped up about, Racegal?

 

Sorry, but I get a little miffed when Atheist come onto the scene and decide there is no religious freedom. What they say goes. It doesn't work that way in this country. No one has lost thier freedom of religion because a bible thumper knocked on their door or had someone pray beside them. Now, if they were held hostage, maybe had their head cut off over it.......

This country WAS founded on Christianity, Christian beliefs, and values. Do you think that the creators of the Constitution intended for it to be amended to death, and bastardized the way that it has?

well, see above. values: yes (most values are universal, regardless of religion), beliefs: perhaps, christianity: not really.

 

as for the socalled bastardisation: humans are imperfect beings. do you intend to tell me that these founding fathers of yours were so smart that they could forsee every law ever needed and every interpretation from their time to centuries later? of course things will be modified and updated... due to this same human imperfection new laws will sometimes screw the pooch & fuck up. shit happens.

 

same goes with everything known to man. religion for example. it took 3 to 4 centuries after the death of Christ to write the bible & in the meanwhile we're editing whatever we please. the pope for instance just decided that unbaptised children no longer go to *cant remember the name, that thing before hell but not quite hell* but to heaven instead. hooray for public relations decisions.

 

the Quran (Koran? Coran?) took for instance 25 years to write, and Mohammed was illiterate (as was Jesus). the Quran states that everything in it should be judged by the current (for us 'modern') context, not the one centuries ago. not bad for a prophet, huh?

 

in terms of weapons, you could say some stuff is good and universal. take a 1911 or an M2. those concepts have lived for a century and have only been modified little. on the other hand, you have stuff like an M1 carbine that was in desperate need to be updated to modern standards & was thrown out for something new, something better suited for the modern times.

 

either way, you improvise, addapt, overcome. it's the human way of life. ;)

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Sorry, but I get a little miffed when Atheist come onto the scene and decide there is no religious freedom. What they say goes. It doesn't work that way in this country. No one has lost thier freedom of religion because a bible thumper knocked on their door or had someone pray beside them. Now, if they were held hostage, maybe had their head cut off over it.......[/b

 

It would also have to be an official government act to meet the criteria being discussed here. Sua you are truly clueless and need to stop pretending you understand American freedom because you clearly don't and are talking like an American liberal whose entire education came from the public schools. The Founders foresaw the need for limited Federal government which just goes to show how far you and other leftists(including our own) miss the mark.

 

This is the law:

 

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved for the States respectively, or to the people.

 

It's time the US Government was made to abide by it.

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http://www.stuckmojomedia.com/audio/Stuck_...Im_American.mp3

 

I'm an American related to all colors of brethren, Priests and Pastors and Prophets and Reverends, Divided we fall united we stand together man, In this cultural melting pot there's nothing better than, This land of the free and the home of the brave, Populated by ancestors of immigrants and slaves who met early graves So we could see brighter days and we could proudly praise and raise the stars and stripes as Americans

 

Hate me

Blame me

You can't shame me

Come and stand with me

I'm American

 

I'm an American born in these states united, Where racial discrimination keeps us so divided, But we've got free speech so I won't be quiet, We got a lot of problems here man I won't deny it, But ain't another place that I'd rather be, Than in this land of great opportunity, Where we can be anything that we wanna be, So until the day I D-I-E, I stand tall as an American

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Sua you are truly clueless and need to stop pretending you understand American freedom because you clearly don't and are talking like an American liberal whose entire education came from the public schools.

i'm not pretending anything... i'm trying to understand. which is why it would be kind of helpful for you to actually argue your case instead of decending into nonsensical insults that really have no bearing in this topic.

 

PS: if you public schools are so bad by your standards, maybe you should take action to improve them?

 

The Founders foresaw the need for limited Federal government which just goes to show how far you and other leftists(including our own) miss the mark.

might come as a shock Groaner, but I vote for a centrist party (center-right even according to wikipedia). so refrain from calling me a leftist in the future. "liberal pussy eurotrash" is still acceptable though.

 

(although i totally reject the line of thought that there is a one-dimensional political spectrum that dictates left or right. as such that the american way of either being liberal (democrat) or conservative (republican) seems utterly and totally silly to me...)

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...(although i totally reject the line of thought that there is a one-dimensional political spectrum that dictates left or right. as such that the american way of either being liberal (democrat) or conservative (republican) seems utterly and totally silly to me...)

 

I've said it before and Ill say it again... It's not a Dem/Rep thing, it's an urban/rural thing.

On the state level here in NY we have several rural Democrats who vote against gun control bills every time.

We also have several urban Republicans who vote FOR those very same bills.

 

It's not the damned Democrats, it's "them damned cityfolk!" ;)

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This is a belated tangent, but I am TIRED of hearing the innaccurate "seperation of Church and State" BS spouted by folks wanting to remove all references of a higher power from our government. They claim that government can't mention religion or a God and that is simply NOT TRUE. "Seperation of Church and State" was meant to prevent a single state-sponsored religion, much like what had occured in England prior to our succession.

 

 

Declaration of Independence

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

 

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights

 

Simply put, this country was founded on Theist beliefs, not Christian, because most of our forefathers could agree in the existence of a higher power, even if they didn't agree who he/she/it was. Because of this, our country has always been a so-called "religious nation" and should continue to be. If you dont like it, there's more than 185 other nations you can take your pick from.

 

 

Do I believe we should put crosses and bibles in courthouses? NO, because they are most widely accepted as christian symbols.

 

Do I believe tablets of stone resembling the ten commandments shoudl be? YES, because they are most widely recognized as symbols of law. Most Jews I know do not think of the ten commandments as a christian thing, and neither do most christians, along with a lot of agnostics, some atheists, and some other religions.

 

In summary, claiming "seperation of church and state" simply because you don't like that this country was founded with "religious" ideals, is misdirectional, deceitful, and outright incorrect.

Edited by busy_squirrel
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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights

 

Also note that our founders believed we were created not evolved.

 

Evolution is still a SCIENTIFICALLY UNPROVEN theory, just like intelligent design. We need to teach both or neither in any school.

 

Evolution is not the same as Science. Science is a process that involves:

Observation

Prediction

Experimentation

Analysis

Conclusion

Edited by busy_squirrel
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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights

 

Also note that our founders believed we were created not evolved.

 

Evolution is still a SCIENTIFICALLY UNPROVEN theory, just like intelligent design. We need to teach both or neither in any school.

 

Evolution is not the same as Science. Science is a process that involves:

Observation

Prediction

Experimentation

Analysis

Conclusion

 

I oppose teaching Creationism in schools. Creationism WILL NOT help kids in college or in their future job. Only technical knowledge: math, science. As well as social subjects: sociology, history, psychology, literature are of issue.

Religion has NO place in a workplace. Religion has NO place in a STATE school.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

Edited by Tigerclaw_x
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*snip*

 

In summary, claiming "seperation of church and state" simply because you don't like that this country was founded with "religious" ideals, is misdirectional, deceitful, and outright incorrect.

I'm kinda unsure at who that rant was aimed at squirrel, but if it was due to my post, you haven't argued anything that conflicts with what I said.

 

Evolution is still a SCIENTIFICALLY UNPROVEN theory, just like intelligent design. We need to teach both or neither in any school.

 

Evolution is not the same as Science. Science is a process that involves:

Observation

Prediction

Experimentation

Analysis

Conclusion

Well, evolution is proven on a micro-evolutionary scale. Kinda hard to do it on a macro-evolutionary scale unless you're willing to populate Mars and wait for 5000 years and see the result. ;)

 

Evolution is indeed unproven on a macro-evolutionary scale, there is no doubt about that. It's also more or less unprovable on a macro-evolutionary scale. On that scale, creationism is as valid a scientific theory.

 

My argument is that given two equal and equally unproveable theories, I prefer the one of which I know the pre-set motivations of formulation weren't to prove the formulators beliefs.

 

Religion has NO place in a workplace. Religion has NO place in a STATE school.

well, overhere we made a mistake with the reform a few decades ago. public schools let people choose which religious lessons kids get for like 2 hours a week (for like 4 years in a row, i think): christian, protestant, islamic, etc. for agnostics or atheists, you get 'morals' (basically lighthearted philosophy).

 

i think we should've shut the whole concept out of our schools. if you feel like getting educated on christianity, go to sundayschool. but the state shouldn't be paying for it.

 

 

 

oh and if you have a sense of humour, check this, if not, just don't click.

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+1.

 

I agree 100%. I do not wish for my TAX dollars to be used in a religious indocination of my kids. Instead of 1 hour a week of religion, I would rather give them 1 hour a week of Geography, Math, Science, Literature (US and especially European).

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OOOODDDIIIINNNNN!!!!!!!!!

:lolol:

 

(and yes I'm one of those danged darwinists... no, I dont care if anyone else is)

 

 

edit: wasn't this thread titled democrats and THE POLITICS OF GUNS?

Edited by 44rdv4rk
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I oppose teaching Creationism in schools. Creationism WILL NOT help kids in college or in their future job. Only technical knowledge: math, science. As well as social subjects: sociology, history, psychology, literature are of issue.

 

Fair enough, but teaching evolution is equally as intangible. I do not condone teaching religion in school BUT some societal norms (morals/ethics) must be and are being taught in school.

 

If they are not, things like Columbine/Va Tech/etc. happen because these individuals knew what they were doing was illegal, but arguably didn't know it was wrong. Unfortunately current so-called norms being taught include the diversity of sexuality (which is statistically not the norm) and other similarly politically motivated propoganda, while ignoring more basic "real-life" issues like the business need for honesty and the ability to balance a checkbook. These skill-sets are universally necessary in todays culture and thus SHOULD be taught in the public schools but we ignore them to fight about prayer in schools and civil unions philosophy.

 

Evolution is indeed unproven on a macro-evolutionary scale, there is no doubt about that. It's also more or less unprovable on a macro-evolutionary scale. On that scale, creationism is as valid a scientific theory.

 

I wasn't ranting at you personally SuA. Just at the misconception that keeps being propogated about the meaning of "seperation of church and state" specifically in posts #53 by what was said and in #70 by what was not said. (Specifically, that creation is schools is religion which implies it isn't science but failing to mention that evolution isn't science either.)

 

BTW, evolution IS unproven, even on a micro-evolutionary scale because it is a series of assumptions which incorporate SOME of the observable evidence. Evolution does not explain radio-isotope halos, magnetic field decay, the complexity of life (which fundamentally defies the 3rd law of thermodynamics), all observed lifeform evolutions have been malignant, Petrified trees inside coal veins, etc. I DO NOT WANT THIS THREAD TO GO THERE but will discuss via PM if someone wants.

 

Tigerclaw had pointed out in post#28 that he objects to getting his rights from god. as i said, there are over 185 other countries to choose from if you dont like what this country was founded on. Whether he likes it or not, whether we change the constitution of not, it won't change what the country WAS founded on. that was my point.

 

I had hoped to only sidetrack long enough to correct the obvious errors and not detract from the gun-talk but some people will fight about anything i guess. :haha: I think we "veered-off" around post #15 if it can be called that anymore.

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I oppose teaching Creationism in schools. Creationism WILL NOT help kids in college or in their future job. Only technical knowledge: math, science. As well as social subjects: sociology, history, psychology, literature are of issue.

 

Fair enough, but teaching evolution is equally as intangible. I do not condone teaching religion in school BUT some societal norms (morals/ethics) must be and are being taught in school.

 

If they are not, things like Columbine/Va Tech/etc. happen because these individuals knew what they were doing was illegal, but arguably didn't know it was wrong. Unfortunately current so-called norms being taught include the diversity of sexuality (which is statistically not the norm) and other similarly politically motivated propoganda, while ignoring more basic "real-life" issues like the business need for honesty and the ability to balance a checkbook. These skill-sets are universally necessary in todays culture and thus SHOULD be taught in the public schools but we ignore them to fight about prayer in schools and civil unions philosophy.

 

Evolution is indeed unproven on a macro-evolutionary scale, there is no doubt about that. It's also more or less unprovable on a macro-evolutionary scale. On that scale, creationism is as valid a scientific theory.

 

I wasn't ranting at you personally SuA. Just at the misconception that keeps being propogated about the meaning of "seperation of church and state" specifically in posts #53 by what was said and in #70 by what was not said. (Specifically, that creation is schools is religion which implies it isn't science but failing to mention that evolution isn't science either.)

 

BTW, evolution IS unproven, even on a micro-evolutionary scale because it is a series of assumptions which incorporate SOME of the observable evidence. Evolution does not explain radio-isotope halos, magnetic field decay, the complexity of life (which fundamentally defies the 3rd law of thermodynamics), all observed lifeform evolutions have been malignant, Petrified trees inside coal veins, etc. I DO NOT WANT THIS THREAD TO GO THERE but will discuss via PM if someone wants.

 

Tigerclaw had pointed out in post#28 that he objects to getting his rights from god. as i said, there are over 185 other countries to choose from if you dont like what this country was founded on. Whether he likes it or not, whether we change the constitution of not, it won't change what the country WAS founded on. that was my point.

 

I had hoped to only sidetrack long enough to correct the obvious errors and not detract from the gun-talk but some people will fight about anything i guess. :haha: I think we "veered-off" around post #15 if it can be called that anymore.

 

Moral and ethics should be taught at HOME first and foremost. If not, the school will teach nothing. For now, the only moral they teach is that it is ok and even cool to be gay and that you should not be "judgemental" or you will offend other person.

Now, as far as "rights from God". Lets face it, Thomas Jefferson was not a religious man, he was surely not a christian. Now, as far as "god", I dare you to find in a Constitution the word "Jesus". I also double dare you to find in the Constitution the word "Mohammed" or "Allah", or "Jahveh". The rights may have been given "by God". However, it does NOT specify in Constitution WHICH God. Neither it is specified which BRANCH of a given religion was used as a bases. Therefore, any and all attempts to conway that USA was founded on Christian principles are false, as Christianity is NOT mentioned in Constitution. Neitehr is Islam, Judaism, Odinism, Paganism, Satanism, etc...

The country was founded on "religious principles". Great. WHICH ONES!!! Where does the Constitution makes refference to any religious texts or any known religion? Quite a few of the educated people of the time put a sign of equality between God and Nature. I dare you to find the refferences to Christianity in Constitution. Since there are none, Christianity has no place on a Federal or State Official institution. Neither does any other religion.

 

TC

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Moral and ethics should be taught at HOME first and foremost. If not, the school will teach nothing.

WRONG! Morals(good/bad) and values(religion/sex) should be taught at home while societal morals (good/bad) and ethics (legal/harmful) should be taught in the public arena otherwise noone knows what everyone believes. I'm not talking about programming, I'm talking about te basics that the majority of society agrees on. (don't steal/kill/rape/etc.)

 

Lets face it, Thomas Jefferson was not a religious man, he was surely not a christian.

Doesn't matter because he signed the Declaration of Independence agreeing with the document INCLUDING THE QUOTE I POSTED from it!

 

Therefore, any and all attempts to conway that USA was founded on Christian principles are false, as Christianity is NOT mentioned in Constitution. Neitehr is Islam, Judaism, Odinism, Paganism, Satanism, etc...

The country was founded on "religious principles". Great. WHICH ONES!!! Where does the Constitution makes refference to any religious texts or any known religion? Quite a few of the educated people of the time put a sign of equality between God and Nature. I dare you to find the refferences to Christianity in Constitution. Since there are none, Christianity has no place on a Federal or State Official institution. Neither does any other religion.

 

TC

Now you're pissing me off! I never once said this country was founded on Christian principles, in fact I said it wasn't! It should be obvious to everyone at this point that he is ignoring previous posts for the sake of arguing!

 

Please read my first post in this thread, post#68:

Simply put, this country was founded on Theist beliefs, not Christian, because most of our forefathers could agree in the existence of a higher power, even if they didn't agree who he/she/it was.

 

Tiger, I'm asking politely, with no threats of authority on my part, just an honest honorable request....please leave this forum. :angel:

Edited by busy_squirrel
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