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Saiga M.12P begins range testing....

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In the words of R.Lee Ermy, "Out F*ing Standing!"


Over the past three days I've shot 250 rounds of various 12-ga loads through the Saiga M.12P and she's beginning to come into her own. I also learned the hard way (five mags full) that the SAR2 buttstock was NOT met to be rammed repeatedly against the shoulder, propelled by 3" mag steel-core penetrator slugs. Cool beans on the target but the muzzle blast and the damage to my shoulder cut range testing short at least until I heal.


The muzzle device is no more, and I'm very pleased, although I wish God had just allowed me to remove it with tools. Instead 10 rounds in with '00 buck the whole assembily shot down range, the price I pay for using copper plumbing fittings and soft steel pins to put it togather. Oh well, I'm happy to report that with "combat" rounds, basicaly buckshot or above, the weapon cycles reliably and up to low-impulse LEO slugs, is fairly comfortable to shoot. Got an AK-recoil buffer on order and am working on a custom butt-pad that aught to absorb a lot of the boom.


The sights have become a little issue as I was unable to salvage the screw that the vent rib tightens down on, however a couple of friends from local PDs who were present for some of the testing realy liked the temporary sights I threw togather and I'm working on making a more finished set for the gun.


Over fixed open sights the shotgun grouped extrordinarily well with the rifled slugs, especially the lower powered ones, bringing in a very presentable 5-rnd in 5" at 75yds. Shooting at an old scrap steel welding tank (empty of course) with a 1/2" thick skin, our penetrators achieved some very telling gouges and dents, although none were able to do more than 'break the skin'. The 20" Benelli-90 that served as a "chase plane" of sorts for our range tests was able to put them through one wall of the tank at 10yds in comparison. This isnt much of a worry on a LEO weapon, especially a shotgun, as rifles, not shotguns, are used for penetration in local jurisdictions.


The stock has held togather very well thus far, and I must admit I'm surprised that the bargain-wood from my SAR2 hasnt shattered under the repeated poundings its taken from the heavy recoil of this very light weapon. Still though with a gunshow looming this weekend, I'm going to try and borrow $100 to get a synthetic butt, as well as some various other pices for the project including the rail system used for the virticle handguard and fore-end light (hope to pick those up too) and may be get some more orders.


The affore mentioned officers who generously shared some of their off duty time with me on testing this thing were not only enthusiastic about the weapon, but pooled togather $1,500 to foot the bill for test types 2, 3 and 4 after the last tests.


One of them asked that his be 3" longer with porting on the barrel to take the sting out of the 3" mag slugs, the other two will be pretty much "prettier" copies of unit 00 (a refrence to Japanese Animation, Evangelion, for any fans out there).


Hope y'all enjoy the pics to follow,







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shoulda made it 14" (And the muzzle thing was better flyn downrange)

Cant see did you move your trigger group? A pachmayr slip on recoil pad would help alot!!!! Wait and get the tactical sight from marc!! would look nice (Im getting a digital camera soon)Well at least you gave me a idea!!!

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Well, my entire push was to create a shotgun the size of an MP5. Amoung the contracts I'm looking at entering competition for, one realy inspired me because it called for a shotgun with as much in common with a subgun or a carbine as possible.


The tactical sight is a nice idea for the longer barreled Saigas, but its a no-go for what I need. The barrel isnt long enough past the gas block to mount the sight. The rear block on the saiga pictured in the sight posting looks like it uses a completely different base. Its close enough to the chamber that I dont think I'd want to foul around with welding a new base....although may be brazing would work, but not for a production model. If you take a look at the drawings I did of the possible production model, I'm planning on sticking an ACE folder on it, and I'm also working on how to fix a full leignth accessory rail on the gun from chamber to gas block, and I'll use G,G,&G AR15 flat-top sights on the final product. I just need to figure out how to mount the rail on the cover so its got some anchor. We'll see....maybe two separate rails. I'll see if I cant pick up a AK top cover with a rail on it at the gunshow this weekend. If I get there.


Thanks for the suggestions though.

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Yes that wood stock would hurt smaller leo's (rubbin my collar bone right now :cryss: )it kinda looks outa place probly add some heft to it too! K-varcorp has the bullpup kit for 230.oo$ right now, Im gunna get one! If its a LEO demo whats it matter about the pistol grip! with a 14" barrel the overall lenth would be(runnin for tape measure) 24" give or take a inch(stock pad,muzzle brake,recoil comp)

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The main issue with making a Bullpup was two-fold, the first is that the K-Var kit wont fit the Saiga 12. While it'll shroud the trigger OK, and give you a shoulder pad right at the very end of the reciever, the fore-end which is where the magic happens in the K-var unit, is WAY too small to fit around that massive 12-ga bore, besides being configured totally different from an AK handguard setup. It would have been a complete waste of money to spend $230 on a kit that I could use less than 25% of. The SECOND issue is that Bullpup shotguns have been tried a number of times in the past and have had near zero popularity with LEO/Military personel. There is an automatic 12-guage, and I want to say High Standard made it, that is an incredibly comfortable, advanced design that fits and 18" bbl in a very compact gun that is fireable by one hand if necessairy. There were over 10k units made, but no one ever adopted one here in the US, and they sell for only a few hundred dollars at gunshows in my neck of the woods. Bullpups even as rifles have met with only limited success in use by military forces around the world, the AUG is nearing 30 years old and the Austrian and Australian soldiers I've talked to have hated it for a service weapon. The SA80 had HORRIBLE teething problems and will carry a stigma worse than the AR15/M16 for whatever its service life may be. The French have done OK with their FAMAS but like all bullpup designs it suffers from a gritty trigger pull, not to mention due to the complexity of the weapon it costs the French government about twice what it would have cost to adopt a conventional weapon. The Chinese Airborne forces have adopted a weapon known as the QBZ85 based on the old Norinco bullpup and it does OK, but once again, its got a pretty gritty trigger pull and isnt known for its reliability. About the only two Bullpups I've heard any GOOD things about have been the IAI Tavor (?) and the Indonesian's SAR21, based off of a Vektor (South African) design of a decade ago. They are both VERY expensive, and built like Swiss watches, not to mention incorporate a host of outstanding new features that eliminate a lot of the unpleasantries in shooting a Bullpup design- I have a M17S Preban, and I love it, but my complaints are that with the action right under your face you get a strong wiff of the gasses with every shot, if you think shooting an AR is disconcerting with that spring going "SPROING" after every shot, imagine the loud "KLACK" in a bullpup, that and, as I mentioned before, the trigger pull is less than stellar.


The US LEO world ISNT ready to adopt a bullpup shotgun yet, and to be honest, my grandpa was a cop, I dont feel comfortable pawning something as techno-wonder off on someone who may have to defend their lives with it. Maybe in ten years after issues of trigger pull and mechanism complexity have been worked out.


Not saying it isnt a good idea, its just not good enough right now. I love Bullpups, and if that K-Var didnt have such a butass ugly pistol grip on it, I'd seriously consider buying one for the SAR3 I'm picking up later this month.


Now, as for barrel leignth and velocities. In a shotgun barrel leignth isnt realy the sort of issue it is with a rifle. The other day when I was range testing it, I knocked over a 140lb steel tank on the first shot with low-impulse slugs at nearly 300 feet. That means I'm still developing more than 75 foot lbs of energy at that distance if my calculations are correct, and thats PLENTY of energy out of a shotgun. Just for your edification I'll dig out the ol' chrono and see what it has to say later in the day.


Until then-

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