308 accuracy

[U.S. Pratorean 1,234]

I have a question for you guys that shoot the 7.62x51 ALOT. I recently got my S308 which has been converted with pistol grip, Tapco fcg, 16 in. barrel with bulgy 24mm fsb with the slotted flash suppressor. The scope is an ATN 2-6x40 with bdc. The gun looks totally awesome. The question, I cannot get better than 3-6 MOA with steelcase fmj 145gr. That is benchrested with optimal conditions. It does better with Winchester ballistic silvertips. Is this acceptable? My other AK's in various calibers all do better than that. Is it perhaps the ammo? I figured it would like steel case ammo. Incidently, the ammo is Monarch from Academy. Nothing is loose, screws all tight, is this what you guys are seeing? Sometimes I get a good shot and the next group is all over the place. I realise that this is not a precision weapon but with this scope I really thought I could get 1.5- 3.5 MOA. I can get better with other AK's with Kobra red dots! Thoughts, opinions ? Thank you.

[kresk 10,063]

IMO ammunition can make a huge difference in your accuracy. Try a half dozen or so different .308's, different brands and weights. Your rifle will like one much better than another. It's just a matter of finding the one that's most compatible.

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

With steel case ammo they will run in the 3 to 5 moa range. Never tried Monarch, and never heard of anyone trying to shoot perfect groups with it (you gave your own hint with the comment about the silvertips). You might consider some of your groupings user error, I know much of my result is.

 

I have a few suggestions. One is to try different types of ammo (as has been mentioned). A second is to give it a really good cleaning, with a copper solvent such as sweets, and/or a strong brass brushing. Finally really tighten down the scope mount, to be sure there is no play at all.

 

If you find the combo that gets it in the 2moa range you can consider it a go as your normal ammo. Bearing in mind, that a 2moa gun will probably produce many 3-4moa groups. With a 6x scope what might seem like a perfect bull, can easily be 1/2 or more moa off, at least to my old eyes. Don't doubt that the scope you're using might have some parallax to deal with as well, shoot with your eye in the exact same spot.

 

If you have some reloading equipment you can usually find that magic combination that works great, and doesn't break the bank. Otherwise, it's a combo of skill and luck. And yes, with this gun, 2moa is dialed in. If you get better then you've got a good one.

 

Hope it works out for you.

[lsgs 0]

almost same gun 16 in saiga with ak brake,, mine shoots less than 1moa with israeli ball. and my hand loads. 168 bthp over 43gr of accurate 2520. just over 2600 fps.. it maintains under 2 in groups at 200 yards for comm block cmp matches with iron sights. change your ammo. check your scopeon one of those other rifles you say shoots so well. if it does same thing its your optic,, shouldnt be though. other than my posp i use atn exclusivly great glass,, usually built like brick s. house.

find some u.s. g.i. 308 ball some where or winchester white box. or remington or federal generic 150 gr fmj. use those as benchmark,, then try crappy steel case. only steel case i ever tried that shot wortha dam was norinco steel case in early 90s that came in with polytech m14s. that was good stuff.. after that well it does go bang.

[Hunter78 1]

You should be able to do better.

 

1. Try differnt ammo.

2. Double check all screws and clamp on the scope mount including the rings

3. Your flash hider is on straight and with a hole large enough for the 308 right? check for impact marks

4. If all else fails switch out the scope. I had a simmons scope that the reticle would shift due to recoil ( I just about lost my mind before figuring that out).

5. practice. Make sure you are mounting the scope the same each time. You may have to get higher or lower rings and/or mount to get a cheek weld or use some type of raised cheek pad. Make sure your not jerking your shots and that the trigger pull is smooth (polish trigger group)

 

Hope you find your problem.

[rkinney11 0]

tried some monarch in ball for my 45 and didn't like what i got overall. shooting ball ammo is going to be different than shooting and reloading for your weapon. try different brands and also try different weights of ball ammo and you can or should find one type and weight that your weapon will like. it is going to take time to make it happen for you and a lot of testing. if you decide to reload at any time i think you will find a good bench rest round for your saiga. if your going to go with store bought then your going to have to be ready to try all types of ammo. some will shoot great for you and some will be poor shooting until you find what your 308 will like. just take your time and plan on doing some serious shooting to find your round. i have found so far in reloading a good 130 to 150 grain in soft point works for me extremely well. also if you can find info on the cross section and bullet density and find bullets that are very close together you will find your search won't be so bad as well. most of the companies are pretty close but look for same same measurements and that also will help out

rob k

let me know if i can help. i have some reloads i might be able to send you few. they are not hollow point which match shooters like they are hunting loads but i shoot sub 1" groups at a 100 with them. i am shooting them our of rugger m77 so you know it isn't a saiga but i am going to buy one soon for sure for hog and maybe some brush country deer hunting as well

Edited April 30, 2007 by robk

[U.S. Pratorean 1,234]

tried some monarch in ball for my 45 and didn't like what i got overall. shooting ball ammo is going to be different than shooting and reloading for your weapon. try different brands and also try different weights of ball ammo and you can or should find one type and weight that your weapon will like. it is going to take time to make it happen for you and a lot of testing. if you decide to reload at any time i think you will find a good bench rest round for your saiga. if your going to go with store bought then your going to have to be ready to try all types of ammo. some will shoot great for you and some will be poor shooting until you find what your 308 will like. just take your time and plan on doing some serious shooting to find your round. i have found so far in reloading a good 130 to 150 grain in soft point works for me extremely well. also if you can find info on the cross section and bullet density and find bullets that are very close together you will find your search won't be so bad as well. most of the companies are pretty close but look for same same measurements and that also will help out

rob k

let me know if i can help. i have some reloads i might be able to send you few. they are not hollow point which match shooters like they are hunting loads but i shoot sub 1" groups at a 100 with them. i am shooting them our of rugger m77 so you know it isn't a saiga but i am going to buy one soon for sure for hog and maybe some brush country deer hunting as well

Thank you all for your input. robk also thank you and I would like to try some of your loads. I discovered that the reticle on the scope I was using has a dot at the center not a crosshair or chevron. The dot covers 3.5" at 100 meters so even a 1MOA gun could still theoretically fall within this . I am changing over to a PSOP 8x42 MILDOT and will get back. The Kobra red dots are 1.5 MOA, also PK-AS. Finer aiming point. Lastly, I suspected the ammo issue and I wanted a "second" opinion. I am kinda' anal that way. Again THANKS.....

[Tigerclaw_x 1]

tried some monarch in ball for my 45 and didn't like what i got overall. shooting ball ammo is going to be different than shooting and reloading for your weapon. try different brands and also try different weights of ball ammo and you can or should find one type and weight that your weapon will like. it is going to take time to make it happen for you and a lot of testing. if you decide to reload at any time i think you will find a good bench rest round for your saiga. if your going to go with store bought then your going to have to be ready to try all types of ammo. some will shoot great for you and some will be poor shooting until you find what your 308 will like. just take your time and plan on doing some serious shooting to find your round. i have found so far in reloading a good 130 to 150 grain in soft point works for me extremely well. also if you can find info on the cross section and bullet density and find bullets that are very close together you will find your search won't be so bad as well. most of the companies are pretty close but look for same same measurements and that also will help out

rob k

let me know if i can help. i have some reloads i might be able to send you few. they are not hollow point which match shooters like they are hunting loads but i shoot sub 1" groups at a 100 with them. i am shooting them our of rugger m77 so you know it isn't a saiga but i am going to buy one soon for sure for hog and maybe some brush country deer hunting as well

Thank you all for your input. robk also thank you and I would like to try some of your loads. I discovered that the reticle on the scope I was using has a dot at the center not a crosshair or chevron. The dot covers 3.5" at 100 meters so even a 1MOA gun could still theoretically fall within this . I am changing over to a PSOP 8x42 MILDOT and will get back. The Kobra red dots are 1.5 MOA, also PK-AS. Finer aiming point. Lastly, I suspected the ammo issue and I wanted a "second" opinion. I am kinda' anal that way. Again THANKS.....

 

Do not expect Saiga 308 to be accurate. They were NOT made for that. They were made to be a cheap, reliable hunting weapon. Russians who tested Saiga vs Vepr (both 16 inch models) have found that Vepr has 1.5-1.8MOA when using WOLF ammo. While Saiga had 2.2-2.7" MOA with the same ammo. Saiga is built more lightly then vepr, has lighter receiver, not an RPK style 1.6mm receiver. Vepr has also a better trigger. Saiga was made so cheap that even Russians, where an average monthly salary in 500 bucks a month (and that's in Moscow - the wealthiest place in Russia), a person can afford one.

They are building a Saiga M, with heavier receiver and barrel, I would definitely buy those, if they were imported. I still dunno if I will get a 308 Saiga

[7.62x51 0]

Tigerclaw x said: Do not expect Saiga 308 to be accurate. They were NOT made for that. They were made to be a cheap, reliable hunting weapon. Russians who tested Saiga vs Vepr (both 16 inch models) have found that Vepr has 1.5-1.8MOA when using WOLF ammo. While Saiga had 2.2-2.7" MOA with the same ammo. Saiga is built more lightly then vepr, has lighter receiver, not an RPK style 1.6mm receiver. Vepr has also a better trigger. Saiga was made so cheap that even Russians, where an average monthly salary in 500 bucks a month (and that's in Moscow - the wealthiest place in Russia), a person can afford one.

They are building a Saiga M, with heavier receiver and barrel, I would definitely buy those, if they were imported. I still dunno if I will get a 308 Saiga

=====================================================================

 

spoken like a non-owner.

Hi everyone.

7.62x51 and 5.56

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

Tigerclaw x said: Do not expect Saiga 308 to be accurate. They were NOT made for that. They were made to be a cheap, reliable hunting weapon. Russians who tested Saiga vs Vepr (both 16 inch models) have found that Vepr has 1.5-1.8MOA when using WOLF ammo. While Saiga had 2.2-2.7" MOA with the same ammo. Saiga is built more lightly then vepr, has lighter receiver, not an RPK style 1.6mm receiver. Vepr has also a better trigger. Saiga was made so cheap that even Russians, where an average monthly salary in 500 bucks a month (and that's in Moscow - the wealthiest place in Russia), a person can afford one.

They are building a Saiga M, with heavier receiver and barrel, I would definitely buy those, if they were imported. I still dunno if I will get a 308 Saiga

=====================================================================

 

spoken like a non-owner.

Hi everyone.

7.62x51 and 5.56

 

Speaking as an owner of three 308's, I have one that will do 3-5 in groups, one that will do 2-3 in groups, and one that hovers closer to 2 in groups. I don't think he's off base suggesting that a milled receiver will outpeform a stamped one. Accuracy is relative to the job at hand. For most purposes a 3 in gun is more than adequate (especially in a semi auto). That's been the standard for battle rifles for some time. I routinely shoot next to M14's and garands that perform in that same league. In a bolt gun, a 1 in group is the standard.

 

I'd definately sign up for a saiga M if we ever get to see one. The claims of 1 inch groups are likely very real (I'm envious), but I think those are the exception instead of the norm. If you can make your own stocks, and grips, a conversion costs all of about 35 bucks (for the g2 trigger group). And it will bring a smile to your face the first time you shoot the improved trigger. If your willing to do that, then the saiga can be a much better deal depending on your definition of accurate enough.

 

It's good to know that my wife lets me have the same luxuries that the average Russian worker gets (I thought I was doing much worse).

[Vermiform 26]

Sure you already know this but I'm gonna say it anyway.

 

When the barrel on your Saiga heats up, the groups really loosen up.

 

Also, I shoot monarch too out of my x39. It is definately inferior to Wolf, but cheaper and available at Academy so it is handy. My groups suffer from it, but with these awful prices what ya gonna do?

[Tigerclaw_x 1]

[Genocide 0]

I bet any of the problems they encountered with the trigger would be fixed with a conversion to the standard AK FCG, tighter groupings would probably show with the conversion to match that of a Vepr.

[44rdv4rk 0]

few here would disagree that the stock trigger is a travesty.

[G O B 3,516]

I'm happy with mine after I smoothed the mating surfaces and lubed it.

 

Not HAPPY!!! Just happy.

[Tokageko 8]

U.S. Praetorian: I think changing scopes is a good call. I've had lots of experience with scope mounts that come loose, more than I really want to admit to. What you're describing sounds like what I experienced when a scope was allowed to move under recoil - because the rings, or the base, weren't tight enough. If it shoots two or three shots nicely and then throws them off to the side (or up, or down - especially if it produces an increasingly larger group as you continue), then you're probably dealing with a loose scope mount/base/rings.

 

I've damn near become an expert in scope mount failure.

[cscharlie 107]

+1 on the scopemount as a possible culprit. You might consider a "Scout mount". http://www.scoutscopes.com/

 

They replace the rear site and do not attach to the reciever.

Edited May 8, 2007 by cscharlie

[Havoc308 3]

+1 on scope mount failure. I've solved that issue by loctite and staking down the screws that hold the rail on. There is a lot going on in a Saiga after you pull the trigger. I think everyone here has had a "chunk the scope down range moment"

 

I have a scout scope mount, if you are interested, PM me. I could let it go for $40.

Edited May 14, 2007 by Havoc308

[G O B 3,516]

I have a Simmons that is going down to .22 duty only.