AR-15 vs. Saiga .223

[quinci956 1]

Our department recently approved our Officers to carry .223 patrol rifles in their vehicles instead of or along with the shotgun. I was able to get the Saiga approved due to the price of most AR-15's. I bought mine and fumbled my way through the conversion process and ended up with what I thought was a decent rifle. I torture tested the rifle over several months. It is my experience as the armorer for my department that Officers tend to treat their weapons like a lawn mower. Use the heck out of it and throw it back in the shed. I fired over 3 cases of ammunition through it without so much as oiling it just kept on shooting. Every now and then I would stick my finger in there and wipe off the feed ramp but that is hardly what I call a good cleaning.

Back to my point. Last month we had our patrol rifle qualification. The qualification course starts at the 100 yd line then the shooter has to run through a move and shoot course. There are several different barracades to shoot from and several targets. The course is a 30 round course with 2 required magazine changes. Two runs through the course required for qualification. I qualified with my SWAT M-16 (10" barrel) equipped with a C-More A-Tac sight. I then qualified with my Bushmaster modular carbine also equiped with a C-More A-Tac. I did very well with both. I had no misses and my times were among the fastest in the department. I then pulled out my used and abused Saiga with no optics out of my trunk. A sling is required due to a required transistion to handgun at the end so I took some webbing material (old belt and duct tape) and made an improvised sling. I then ran the course with the Saiga. I not only hit the targets every time but my groups were just as tight as they were with the two previous rifles. I also beat my previous times by about 6 to 10 seconds.

I saw the other Officers that were qualifying with their purchased Saigas and was impressed by their scores so that prompted me to try mine. My poor little abused green monster has earned a place in my cruiser. I challenge anyone to shoot 3 cases of ammunition through an AR-15 without cleaning it. I still love my Eugene Stoner creations but for the price (mine was $250.00 when I bought it, then another $150 in the parts to convert it) and simplicity the Saiga is hard to beat.

[wlchase 0]

Shweeet!

 

It had been, oh, 46, 47 since I shot a rifle (.22 bolt action) when I took my freshly cleaned 20" out to the range, and I was stunned by putting the first 3 shots into or touching the bullseye at 100 yds! Can't wait to take her to the 3-gun match at my club next month!

 

A HUGE bargain, even cadillac converted!

Bill

[vjor 2]

Hey one thing to remember, a lot of bad rap on the ak's is because a lot of people built

guns with used barrels that are on the way out than on the way in, when you get a Saiga

the barrel is virgin, probably just shoot at factory to zero it and test for malfunctions, what

a lot of people don't see on a saiga is that the rifle is a excellent platform to built

anything you want, when you get a Saiga you get new receiver made to military especs

from factory, new barrel is no wander that the gun do as is supposed to do.

 

Any way cool, you should get your self and 7.62x39 and try it, you will not be sorry

that thing gives you fire power and penetration under 300 meters and yes it can group

tight if you rework it.

 

The Saiga with a nice rework trigger can be a very different animal that the one with

the regular stock trigger, you can make it smooth as silk, and yes a good trigger can make

a lot of difference on any gun.

 

Just my 2 cents worth of nothing.

[Outlaw 0]

Our department recently approved our Officers to carry .223 patrol rifles in their vehicles instead of or along with the shotgun. I was able to get the Saiga approved due to the price of most AR-15's. I bought mine and fumbled my way through the conversion process and ended up with what I thought was a decent rifle. I torture tested the rifle over several months. It is my experience as the armorer for my department that Officers tend to treat their weapons like a lawn mower. Use the heck out of it and throw it back in the shed. I fired over 3 cases of ammunition through it without so much as oiling it just kept on shooting. Every now and then I would stick my finger in there and wipe off the feed ramp but that is hardly what I call a good cleaning.

Back to my point. Last month we had our patrol rifle qualification. The qualification course starts at the 100 yd line then the shooter has to run through a move and shoot course. There are several different barracades to shoot from and several targets. The course is a 30 round course with 2 required magazine changes. Two runs through the course required for qualification. I qualified with my SWAT M-16 (10" barrel) equipped with a C-More A-Tac sight. I then qualified with my Bushmaster modular carbine also equiped with a C-More A-Tac. I did very well with both. I had no misses and my times were among the fastest in the department. I then pulled out my used and abused Saiga with no optics out of my trunk. A sling is required due to a required transistion to handgun at the end so I took some webbing material (old belt and duct tape) and made an improvised sling. I then ran the course with the Saiga. I not only hit the targets every time but my groups were just as tight as they were with the two previous rifles. I also beat my previous times by about 6 to 10 seconds.

I saw the other Officers that were qualifying with their purchased Saigas and was impressed by their scores so that prompted me to try mine. My poor little abused green monster has earned a place in my cruiser. I challenge anyone to shoot 3 cases of ammunition through an AR-15 without cleaning it. I still love my Eugene Stoner creations but for the price (mine was $250.00 when I bought it, then another $150 in the parts to convert it) and simplicity the Saiga is hard to beat.

That's great to hear. I like the Ak platform more and more when I read/hear experiences like these.

[JK-47 33]

If your guys are used to ARs, consider this Pistol grip option: AR to AK pistol grip adapter

Its great to hear that the Saiga AK can keep pace in a law enforcement environment. Somthing the Russians have known for a while though.

[brock1 0]

Your experience with the ability and accuracy of the Saiga 223 is very impressive......I should have considered it when I ordered my brand new $800.00 Rock River Arms AR-15 (dealer price). Dont misunderstand me, I love my Rock River; However, I love the quality of my Saiga 12 and it sounds like the Saiga 223 is right on par. Thanks for the info.

Edited May 14, 2007 by boilerman

[quinci956 1]

Hey one thing to remember, a lot of bad rap on the ak's is because a lot of people built

guns with used barrels that are on the way out than on the way in, when you get a Saiga

the barrel is virgin, probably just shoot at factory to zero it and test for malfunctions, what

a lot of people don't see on a saiga is that the rifle is a excellent platform to built

anything you want, when you get a Saiga you get new receiver made to military especs

from factory, new barrel is no wander that the gun do as is supposed to do.

 

Any way cool, you should get your self and 7.62x39 and try it, you will not be sorry

that thing gives you fire power and penetration under 300 meters and yes it can group

tight if you rework it.

 

The Saiga with a nice rework trigger can be a very different animal that the one with

the regular stock trigger, you can make it smooth as silk, and yes a good trigger can make

a lot of difference on any gun.

 

Just my 2 cents worth of nothing.

 

I was just commenting on the .223. I have a 308, 762, and two 12's. Don't get me started on Saiga 12 vs Bennelli, that's another story. Lets just say that after the last long gun qualification that our department has decided that we can carry the Saiga 12 instead of the Remington 870. The Benelli is only approved for SWAT at this time. Wait til I get my number 2 Saiga 12 converted into a "shorty" (awsome entry tool).

[quinci956 1]

If your guys are used to ARs, consider this Pistol grip option: AR to AK pistol grip adapter

Its great to hear that the Saiga AK can keep pace in a law enforcement environment. Somthing the Russians have known for a while though.

 

I am using the Ergo sure grip on my .223. That is the same one that is on my Bushmaster. I really like the way it fitsw my hand.

[vjor 2]

Hey one thing to remember, a lot of bad rap on the ak's is because a lot of people built

guns with used barrels that are on the way out than on the way in, when you get a Saiga

the barrel is virgin, probably just shoot at factory to zero it and test for malfunctions, what

a lot of people don't see on a saiga is that the rifle is a excellent platform to built

anything you want, when you get a Saiga you get new receiver made to military especs

from factory, new barrel is no wander that the gun do as is supposed to do.

 

Any way cool, you should get your self and 7.62x39 and try it, you will not be sorry

that thing gives you fire power and penetration under 300 meters and yes it can group

tight if you rework it.

 

The Saiga with a nice rework trigger can be a very different animal that the one with

the regular stock trigger, you can make it smooth as silk, and yes a good trigger can make

a lot of difference on any gun.

 

Just my 2 cents worth of nothing.

 

I was just commenting on the .223. I have a 308, 762, and two 12's. Don't get me started on Saiga 12 vs Bennelli, that's another story. Lets just say that after the last long gun qualification that our department has decided that we can carry the Saiga 12 instead of the Remington 870. The Benelli is only approved for SWAT at this time. Wait til I get my number 2 Saiga 12 converted into a "shorty" (awsome entry tool).

 

yes I was thinking the same, the SB12G Saiga will make at excellent entry tool, semi auto with 10 round or 8 round mags

cant beat that on close quarters and confine spaces, still love the 7.62x39 over the .223 and .308 but all guns have there

limitations and pros and cons, plus is no magic gun that does everything, each gun has a purpose.

[quinci956 1]

Your experience with the ability and accuracy of the Saiga 223 is very impressive......I should have considered it when I ordered my brand new $800.00 Rock River Arms AR-15 (dealer price). Dont misunderstand me, I love my Rock River; However, I love the quality of my Saiga 12 and it sounds like the Saiga 223 is right on par. Thanks for the info.

 

 

If you have an AR hang on to it. I have been building several for my guys here and I usually build with the DPMS receivers. I can usually build a chrome lined M-4 for about $700. Well since the anouncement of the new gun bill, there are no receivers to be found. Everyone has a waiting list for the quality ones and I refuse to build crap. If you got it keep it. Your $800.00 dollar (dealer price) rifle may soon get quite valuble (just like in the good ole gun ban days).

[The Punisher 0]

Awesome, every comment on these forums make me so excited about what I can do with my Saiga .223. When I get beyond stock I will start showing pics.

[BobAsh 582]

"I challenge anyone to shoot 3 cases of ammunition through an AR-15 without cleaning it. "

 

Glad you are liking the Saiga, but I have never cleaned my AR. It never misfires. I run the cheapest ammo.

[Bad Bob 0]

Glad you are liking the Saiga, but I have never cleaned my AR. It never misfires. I run the cheapest ammo.

How much ammo have you "run" through it, exactly, and what kind of "AR" is it, precisely?

 

I suspect that everyone here would like to buy one EXACTLY like yours, so please be specific, with regard to both the rifle components and the ammo you were using...

Edited May 8, 2007 by Bad Bob

[Bad Bob 0]

Awesome, every comment on these forums make me so excited about what I can do with my Saiga .223. When I get beyond stock I will start showing pics.

Pictures are always great, Compadre!

[Bad Bob 0]

...(just like in the good ole gun ban days).

Wasn't that literally h@ll for American gun owners, or what? With regards to which, I might add:

 

'Vote Republican: they may be disgusting wimps, but at least they ain't current-year-model-anti-American-gun-grabbing-D@mocrats, like Pelosi, Reid, Kennedy, Schumer, Feinstein, Boxer, Murtha, etc., etc., etc..."

 

&

 

"Vote D@mocrat, and kiss your firearms (and your freedom) 'goodbye'..."

[GunOwner 1]

Your experience with the ability and accuracy of the Saiga 223 is very impressive......I should have considered it when I ordered my brand new $800.00 Rock River Arms AR-15 (dealer price). Dont misunderstand me, I love my Rock River; However, I love the quality of my Saiga 12 and it sounds like the Saiga 223 is right on par. Thanks for the info.

 

 

If you have an AR hang on to it. I have been building several for my guys here and I usually build with the DPMS receivers. I can usually build a chrome lined M-4 for about $700. Well since the anouncement of the new gun bill, there are no receivers to be found. Everyone has a waiting list for the quality ones and I refuse to build crap. If you got it keep it. Your $800.00 dollar (dealer price) rifle may soon get quite valuble (just like in the good ole gun ban days).

 

The guys at AR.com have nice things to say about the Superior Arms Stripped Lowers - any feedback on those?

[BobAsh 582]

It's a "TR-15". Made by Tony Rumore. Many of the guys on this forum probably don't know Tony made his reputation building custom AR's.

 

I run Wolf, Bear, or whatever is cheapest at the gun shows. All I ever do is oil the bolt carrier.

 

Quantity? Not too sure, maybe 5 to 10k.

[DavePAL84 1]

If your guys are used to ARs, consider this Pistol grip option: AR to AK pistol grip adapter

Its great to hear that the Saiga AK can keep pace in a law enforcement environment. Somthing the Russians have known for a while though.

 

Or you can spend 3 minutes with a dremel tool and a cordless drill and not pay $6 + shipping. I've done it to several AR grips and now they fit AK's just fine. You need to go to the hardware store and buy a shorter nut though.

[quinci956 1]

"I challenge anyone to shoot 3 cases of ammunition through an AR-15 without cleaning it. "

 

Glad you are liking the Saiga, but I have never cleaned my AR. It never misfires. I run the cheapest ammo.

 

 

Are you shooting Wolf ammo through it. I am the m16/ar15 armorer for my department and my guys have ar15's made by many different companies (Colt, Bushmaster, DPMS, Doublestar, and some Frankenstien guns made with Wilson uppers like the ones used by Rock River Arms). The Wolf stuff has some sort of plastic or laquer coating that gums up the chamber and in addition to that the gas tubes get partially clogged on a heavy diet of those.

What type of AR do you have? I would not be against purchasing another one. I wouldn't happen to be one of the new gas piston uppers would it. I'm intrested in getting one but I'm not sure which one (thinking of trying the H&K 416).

[quinci956 1]

It's a "TR-15". Made by Tony Rumore. Many of the guys on this forum probably don't know Tony made his reputation building custom AR's.

 

I run Wolf, Bear, or whatever is cheapest at the gun shows. All I ever do is oil the bolt carrier.

 

Quantity? Not too sure, maybe 5 to 10k.

Disreguard my last. I should have kept reading. I'm guessing your TR-15 is probably a little more pricey than the average AR-15 and especially the average Saiga. Nothing wrong with that. If you can afford to buy the gun you want do it. It save a lot of hassel fooling around with less expensive guns that you are not completely satisfied with.

[BobAsh 582]

I know what you mean about the hassle...I hang out over at arfcom a little and guys are always complaining about finicky AR's.

[5Adam 0]

Awesome, every comment on these forums make me so excited about what I can do with my Saiga .223. When I get beyond stock I will start showing pics.

 

I'm right there with you !!! I just picked up my 16.3" .223 Sat and have run about 130 rounds through it. Here's a pic of it and my other long guns.

 

Saiga

 

Hi Point C-9 w/ATI stock

 

1891 7.65x54 Argentine Mauser with bayonette attached

[jrance@iacwds.com 716]

5Adam, I gotta tell you when I first saw your moniker I thought it said Sadam! Then I thought about the 5 Adam 12 TV show. Any story to your name?

[Bad Bob 0]

1891 7.65x54 Argentine Mauser with bayonette attached

Nice clean looking Mauser! I always loved 7.65 (kind of a rimless .303 ;>)...

[kiwigunner 0]

madmilo, great report thanks, is your S-223 a 16" barrel? with standard sights?, and what mods have you done to it?

the reason I ask is that I've been looking at a mini-14 but for low cost shooting it will be Wolf Ammo down here in New Zealand and I just wonder how the mini-14 will hold up for hard work with Wolf Ammo hence my intrest in the S-223 as a good fun hard working SHTF gun with the same accuarcy as the mini-14.

[Bvamp 604]

Our department recently approved our Officers to carry .223 patrol rifles in their vehicles instead of or along with the shotgun.

 

(I know you already dont like me, but hey, im not the only one here)

 

 

FUCKING BRAVO! ITS ABOUT TIME! we all have always been there if you may need us, holders, dealers, and the like, but this is a very big happy thing to my ears....ITS ABOUT GODDAMN TIME! we arent entitled to your protection by law, and we arm ourselves nonetheless, but I will let you know that we have always been there for you all. YOUR backs are being watched, much the same that you all do for us and our families and neighbors. BRAVO that you guys finally got your rifles!!!!! this is a GOOD thing.

 

glad to hear that you picked up some "commie guns" to fill that need. it makes sense. they aint half bad, are they?

 

set it up like this if you can, except dont pin the stock completely shut, like I had to do after this pic. its good stuff like this. try one. I have shot since I was 5, and this weapon is by far the best, not including the s12.

 

I know you dont like me, but just look into it, will ya? .....

 

and shoot with both eyes open, brother............

[Bad Bob 0]

It's a "TR-15". Made by Tony Rumore. Many of the guys on this forum probably don't know Tony made his reputation building custom AR's.

 

I run Wolf, Bear, or whatever is cheapest at the gun shows. All I ever do is oil the bolt carrier.

 

Quantity? Not too sure, maybe 5 to 10k.

 

"5 to 10k" of crap ammo? Wow - that's pretty impressive for an AR-15, without cleaning!!! But then, I never had anything but good comments about Tromix, based on what folks posted here before me...

[Bad Bob 0]

(I know you already dont like me, but hey, im not the only one here)

...I know you dont like me, but just look into it, will ya? .....

and shoot with both eyes open, brother............

Hey, Compadre, I don't think I'm in the first group, and I know I'm not in the the second group, and I try every time (honest ;>) not to be in the third group...

 

;>)

 

FWIW, I always recommend the .223/5.56 Saiga ahead of the AR. Not that I don't like my AR - I just think my .223 Saiga conversion represents a lot 'more for the money'...

 

;>)

[quinci956 1]

madmilo, great report thanks, is your S-223 a 16" barrel? with standard sights?, and what mods have you done to it?

the reason I ask is that I've been looking at a mini-14 but for low cost shooting it will be Wolf Ammo down here in New Zealand and I just wonder how the mini-14 will hold up for hard work with Wolf Ammo hence my intrest in the S-223 as a good fun hard working SHTF gun with the same accuarcy as the mini-14.

 

I have the 16". I put the Power Custom two stage fire group in it besause it cn be adjusted to my likeing. I used the rubber coated Ergo grip accompanied by the Tapco folding stock. I then coated the metal with Brownell's Alumahyde II in OD green. I like the black on green look. I thought I was through with it and the I went through the damn picture post section and saw some other changes that I suddenly can't do without. Thanks to Cobra I will soon be threading the barrel and adding a flash hider. I would like to put the Vortek like the one on my M-16 comando. I'm just not sure if I can take the diameter down far enough to make it work.

[Bad Bob 0]

...I would like to put the Vortek like the one on my M-16 comando. I'm just not sure if I can take the diameter down far enough to make it work.

If you are talking about 'taking the diameter down far enough' to thread the barrel 1/2"x28RH, the answer is, 'yes, you can'...

 

;>)