AR-15 vs. Saiga .223

[The Punisher 0]

Awesome, every comment on these forums make me so excited about what I can do with my Saiga .223. When I get beyond stock I will start showing pics.

 

I'm right there with you !!! I just picked up my 16.3" .223 Sat and have run about 130 rounds through it. Here's a pic of it and my other long guns.

 

Saiga

 

Hi Point C-9 w/ATI stock

 

1891 7.65x54 Argentine Mauser with bayonette attached

 

Thats what my Saiga is 16" I love it. Its still stock, but I am waiting for parts.

 

PS. Nice arsenal.

[BobAsh 582]

"5 to 10k" of crap ammo? Wow - that's pretty impressive for an AR-15, without cleaning!!! "

 

Yeah, and several hundred blank cartridges...those golf balls won't launch themselves! Seriously, Tony is an AR expert...too bad he won't make them any more.

[quinci956 1]

Our department recently approved our Officers to carry .223 patrol rifles in their vehicles instead of or along with the shotgun.

 

(I know you already dont like me, but hey, im not the only one here)

 

 

FUCKING BRAVO! ITS ABOUT TIME! we all have always been there if you may need us, holders, dealers, and the like, but this is a very big happy thing to my ears....ITS ABOUT GODDAMN TIME! we arent entitled to your protection by law, and we arm ourselves nonetheless, but I will let you know that we have always been there for you all. YOUR backs are being watched, much the same that you all do for us and our families and neighbors. BRAVO that you guys finally got your rifles!!!!! this is a GOOD thing.

 

glad to hear that you picked up some "commie guns" to fill that need. it makes sense. they aint half bad, are they?

 

set it up like this if you can, except dont pin the stock completely shut, like I had to do after this pic. its good stuff like this. try one. I have shot since I was 5, and this weapon is by far the best, not including the s12.

 

I know you dont like me, but just look into it, will ya? .....

 

and shoot with both eyes open, brother............

 

Why do you think I don't like you? We were just messing around on the southern test.

I appreciate everything you said here. I agree that an armed society is a polite and safe society.

There are three basic types of citizens in this country;

1. Sheep; unarmed, defenseless, passive, constantly being victimized

2. Wolves; predators, feeding on the weak and defenseless

3. Sheep/Guard dogs; protectors, armed, aggressive, defenders of the sheep

 

Remember what happened back in 1997 in North Hollywood during the foiled bank robbery attempt followed by the shootout with the Police? The Police were armed with 9mm Berrettas which were totally inaffective against the body armor worn by the bad guys. The Police were basically pinned down for 45 minutes until one of the badguys ran dry and shot himself and SWAT finally arrived to take out badguy #2. What would have happened if a couple of good ole boys, maybe someone from this forum would have been driving by with a couple of those evil "assault" weapons" in their vehicle. I doubt that this shootout would have lasted 45 minutes and I don't believe that there would have been as many rounds fired. The only problem is not getting confused as being one of the badguys.

I have been backed up several times by civilians in my 18 years as a Police Officer and each time I was grateful and proud that there are citizens that are not afraid to step foreward and help out.

It's people you and others here that make my job easier by refusing to be victims and take the fight to the predators when they become aggresive.

Do I like you? Hell yeah I do! With the antigun crowd coming after us we have to stick together. I know they have visions of a perfect society where everyone says please and thank you and weapons are not needed for protection. This is not Mayberry folks. I my world, Sheriff Andy Taylor carries a gun....

HOW THE HELL DID I GET ON THIS SOAP BOX AND START PREACHING...SORRY...WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN..

[Bvamp 604]

the bank shootout was ended with weapons taken out of local gun shops as the thing unfolded. so in effect IT WAS THE ARMED PUBLIC who enabled it to end.

 

coming from an officer with your experience, that means a lot to myself, and everyone else, that you would say that.

[Bad Bob 0]

the bank shootout was ended with weapons taken out of local gun shops as the thing unfolded. so in effect IT WAS THE ARMED PUBLIC who enabled it to end.

 

coming from an officer with your experience, that means a lot to myself, and everyone else, that you would say that.

I was living out there at the time (thank God I'm not anymore) - and IIRC, I bought a firearm or two at the 'sporting goods emporium' that the police went to for help. The attempted bank robbery was indeed a case of the "armed public" putting an end to a criminal action - if there was no "armed public," there would be no sporting goods store for the police to borrow adequate weapons and ammunition from. And keep in mind, despite the BS being pushed by the liberal media in this country, not a single person was killed in the incident - except the perps (and as far as media coverage goes, I'm not even sure they were legal residents)...

 

If you need another example of the "armed public" assisting LEOs when the going got tuff, just look to that sniper incident at the University of Texas a few (?) years back. The LEOs didn't have firearms that could reach the top of the tower, so law-abiding Texans stepped in, and kept the sniper's head down with their hunting rifles (which no doubt saved many lives). That's a simple fact...

[Bad Bob 0]

One more point - do any of you folks remember how the LAPD responded to the North Hollywood robbery attempt? They issued the the police sergeants .45 ACP handguns. Now, if they actually thought .45s might help the next time they had two perps in body armor, with automatic weapons, robbing a bank, I would suggest they might want to rethink their 'scenario.' If they actually wanted ballistic performance against body armor, they could have done better with ANY military rifle round, fired in ANY firearm. (Sh!t, a TC Contender in the right caliber, with the right ammo, and in the right hands - including those of any law-abiding citizen - would have ended things VERY quickly that day. But we're talking 'The Peoples Republik of Kalifornia,' where even single-shot TCs are 'evil'...) FWIW, I always figured the LAPD guys prefered the .45 to the 9mm Para for everyday use, and were looking for an excuse to get a better handgun.

 

Either way, the .45s won't help if they have to deal with jihadists in body armor, either foreign or domestic made. IMHO, they should have requested FALs, or ARs, or AKs (including Saigas). Or even (for Christ's sake) Lee-Enfields: a single L-E No.4 would have put both of those sorry-@ss-b@stards on the ground in 30 seconds or less.

 

Of course, the liberals and D@mocrat politicians don't actually want to arm our law enforcement officers, or protect the public...

Edited May 18, 2007 by Bad Bob

[Bad Bob 0]

Case in point - the dumb-@ss liberal D@mocrat mayor of LA actually marched in protest today (according to news reports) AGAINST his own police department.

 

If the folks out there had any sense at all, IMHO, they would run that SOB out of town on a rail, with a good coat of tar & feathers, and invite him to NEVER come back...

[JK-47 33]

The Police were basically pinned down for 45 minutes until one of the badguys ran dry and shot himself and SWAT finally arrived to take out badguy #2. What would have happened if a couple of good ole boys, maybe someone from this forum would have been driving by with a couple of those evil "assault" weapons" in their vehicle.

 

Not to be negative, but if you drove up to the police line durring the shootout and got some EBR's out of your truck, chances are quite good you'd take several 9mm rounds to the chest and be listed as a third acompliace in the papers.

[quinci956 1]

The Police were basically pinned down for 45 minutes until one of the badguys ran dry and shot himself and SWAT finally arrived to take out badguy #2. What would have happened if a couple of good ole boys, maybe someone from this forum would have been driving by with a couple of those evil "assault" weapons" in their vehicle.

 

Not to be negative, but if you drove up to the police line durring the shootout and got some EBR's out of your truck, chances are quite good you'd take several 9mm rounds to the chest and be listed as a third acompliace in the papers.

 

If I as a Police officer were in their position and a good ole boy came to me and said that he had any sort of rifle in his vehicle that I could borrow, I'm sure I could get him safe passage. I get your point though. If anyone is ever faced with this type of situation please think and use common sense and don't get hurt.

[Ronswin 26]

Due to political correctness on the police chief's part, the North Hollywood police department had no carbines because "they gave the wrong image". Therefore, the bad guys had the upper hand and good guys took casualties. Several of the basic rules were violated, especially #6 below:

 

Rules for a Gunfight

 

Anonymous

1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.

 

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap - life is expensive.

 

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

 

4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.

 

5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)

 

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.

 

7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.

 

8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.

 

9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel blows the powder from the flintlock of your musket."

 

10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

 

11. Always cheat, always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

 

12. Have a plan.

 

13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.

 

14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.

 

15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

 

16. Don't drop your guard.

 

17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.

 

18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.)

 

19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

 

20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

 

21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

 

22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.

 

23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

 

24. Do not attend a gun fight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with anything smaller than "4".

 

25. You can't miss fast enough to win.

[Bad Bob 0]

24. Do not attend a gun fight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with anything smaller than "4".

Sorry, but that's a 'zinger!' Anyone with a .357 Magnum will never be 'under-served' (with the proper load - check the actual law enforcement statistics). And a .38-40 will take care of you, also (the .40 S&W duplicates .38-40 ballistics - about a century after the .38-40 was first introduced).

 

Not to mention the last handgun I built - it was a '30 caliber,' with a 75-rd mag, based on an AMD-65 parts kit.

 

(Unfortunately, I no longer own it... ;>)

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

Anyone with a .357 Magnum will never be 'under-served'

 

You got that right.

[Bvamp 604]

try telling that to all the cops that have been shot with 20 round handguns and or rifles while they were striking a spent chamber after 6 shots. I like the fact that revolvers are almost fail-safe, but I wouldnt primarily rely on a 6 shot anything if I had to knowingly walk into a firefight. excellent carry and survival gun, not very good for combat types of situations, if you ask me.

[quinci956 1]

try telling that to all the cops that have been shot with 20 round handguns and or rifles while they were striking a spent chamber after 6 shots. I like the fact that revolvers are almost fail-safe, but I wouldnt primarily rely on a 6 shot anything if I had to knowingly walk into a firefight. excellent carry and survival gun, not very good for combat types of situations, if you ask me.

 

I love my wheel guns. They are fun to shoot and most of mine are extremely accurate. My first handgun was a S&W 686. It was my first duty gun and I still have it today. The calibers are extreme in most of the revolvers I have, .44 mag, 500 S&W to mention a few that usually are not found in the semi auto platform. There is nothing like taking the fight to a gang of rouge bowling pins, cantaloupes and assorted household appliances with a 500 S&W.

 

With that said, I agree with Bvamp on this one. I am not comfortable with ony 6 rounds carrying me through a fight. I like to always prepare for the worst which means a high capacity handgun. That is only when a high capacity rifle is not pratical. I carry my Glock 35 concealed when I'm off duty. I believe in fighting with what I train with. I can carry this full size extended barreled Glock a lot more comfortably than I could carry my 686. I carried my 686 concealed off duty for a few years. I liked it because I did not know any better. I felt like I was carrying a 6 shot cynderblock. If you compare size, weight, and firepower, a good reliable semi auto will beat a revolver every time.

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

Your opinions regarding auto pistols are very understandable, but it's not the great divide that you think it is. If you are talking service side arms, then yes a 15 round auto has a big upside. If you're talking concealed carry (what some of us in certain states have as our reality), then not so much...

 

The much loved 1911 carries 8 rounds or less in concealed trim, and concealable revolvers these days carry 7 rounds. I wouldn't think that giving up 1-2 rounds to avoid having to deal with cocked and locked is much of a sacrifice. If you feel more comfortable carrying 13 rounds of 9mm in a DAO, be my guest (but then that's an auto that doesn't start with a 4 - back to the poster's original point).

 

I'm not denying the 40 is a great choice, but if you feel you're under-served by 7 rounds of 357 magnum, you should practice more. I have had, and have seen, more than a fair share of reliability issues with autos (of the concealable nature) to know that revolvers ARE more reliable. And I'm comparing to the marquee names (Sig, springfield, beretta, kimber, etc).

 

Part of the revolvers appeal for me is the fact that it also serves a BUG role nicely, and shares the caliber platform with my stainless lever gun (at 2300fps). For me, the revolver points alot better, and that's worth a handful of extra rounds. Also, it puts all 5 in a 2 in group at 25 yards. I'm amused when gun mags excuse poor accuracy from conceal autos because that's "not what they're for".

 

All of the above said, if you find a conceal gun that has adequate power, reasonable reliability, and most importantly - you point it well, you probably have a winner.

[quinci956 1]

Your opinions regarding auto pistols are very understandable, but it's not the great divide that you think it is. If you are talking service side arms, then yes a 15 round auto has a big upside. If you're talking concealed carry (what some of us in certain states have as our reality), then not so much...

 

The much loved 1911 carries 8 rounds or less in concealed trim, and concealable revolvers these days carry 7 rounds. I wouldn't think that giving up 1-2 rounds to avoid having to deal with cocked and locked is much of a sacrifice. If you feel more comfortable carrying 13 rounds of 9mm in a DAO, be my guest (but then that's an auto that doesn't start with a 4 - back to the poster's original point).

 

I'm not denying the 40 is a great choice, but if you feel you're under-served by 7 rounds of 357 magnum, you should practice more. I have had, and have seen, more than a fair share of reliability issues with autos (of the concealable nature) to know that revolvers ARE more reliable. And I'm comparing to the marquee names (Sig, springfield, beretta, kimber, etc).

 

Part of the revolvers appeal for me is the fact that it also serves a BUG role nicely, and shares the caliber platform with my stainless lever gun (at 2300fps). For me, the revolver points alot better, and that's worth a handful of extra rounds. Also, it puts all 5 in a 2 in group at 25 yards. I'm amused when gun mags excuse poor accuracy from conceal autos because that's "not what they're for".

 

All of the above said, if you find a conceal gun that has adequate power, reasonable reliability, and most importantly - you point it well, you probably have a winner.

 

I'm not saying that the revolver is not a well made, accurate, and reliable choice. As far as my ability with the revolver or the semi auto any time you want a friendly little competition, "I'm your Huckleberry".

I practice a couple of days a week. I am a firearms instructor and pretty much have unlimited range use and an endless supply of ammunition. I train continuosly for real world situations. In my world the bad guy does not stand still in the open waiting to be shot at. My bad guy is not a 4 inch circle waiting at the 25 or 50 yard line waiting for me to to get comfortable on a rest and take aim. He hides behind cover, he moves, I have to move, and I shoot while moving from cover to cover. In a real world situation you will fight like you train. Any military trained individual will tell you the best way to respond to a surprise attack or ambush (robbery, active shooter situation) is to go at the enemy and take the fight to them. It is a whole lot easier shooting and a non-moving target or a target that is running away than it is trying to hit someone that is coming to you and throwing rounds in your direction. The last thing I want to do is to try to fight through a surprise attack and find that once I get to the position for that fight ending shot that I have an empty weapon. The loudest sound in a gunfight "CLICK!". Hopefully you will never need your weapon to defend yourself. If you ever do, do you think the bad guy is going to come at you from the seven yard line and say "stickem up"? That's Hollywood bullshit! I have seen it, and I have been in it.

I'm not saying that the revolver is not a good choice for some. It is all personal preference. If you like your revolver then by all means carry it. A two shot derrenger is better than no gun at all.

You tell me that reliability is a problem with semi autos well we disagree. I have put thousands of rounds through my glocks and I have never had so much as a misfeed with any of them.

You have your opinions and I have mine and that is a good thing. I do not have a problem with a difference of opinion at all, but DO NOT tell me that I should practice more to be more comfortable with my revolver. I train constantly to be prepared for a fight should it come. If I am not at work, I am at the range, in the gym, or on the mat.

Share your opinion. You like a revolver carry it. You state the reason you prefer it over the auto that is fine. Just don't tell me my opinion is wrong and that I have that opinion because I lack certain skills and need practice.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Not to argue with you Milo and not wanting to take this thread too much farther off topic but every time I think of the old wheel gun vs. auto pistol and speed loading I can't help but think of this. AMAZING!

enjoy...

fastshooter.wmv

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

Your opinions regarding auto pistols are very understandable, but it's not the great divide that you think it is. If you are talking service side arms, then yes a 15 round auto has a big upside. If you're talking concealed carry (what some of us in certain states have as our reality), then not so much...

 

The much loved 1911 carries 8 rounds or less in concealed trim, and concealable revolvers these days carry 7 rounds. I wouldn't think that giving up 1-2 rounds to avoid having to deal with cocked and locked is much of a sacrifice. If you feel more comfortable carrying 13 rounds of 9mm in a DAO, be my guest (but then that's an auto that doesn't start with a 4 - back to the poster's original point).

 

I'm not denying the 40 is a great choice, but if you feel you're under-served by 7 rounds of 357 magnum, you should practice more. I have had, and have seen, more than a fair share of reliability issues with autos (of the concealable nature) to know that revolvers ARE more reliable. And I'm comparing to the marquee names (Sig, springfield, beretta, kimber, etc).

 

Part of the revolvers appeal for me is the fact that it also serves a BUG role nicely, and shares the caliber platform with my stainless lever gun (at 2300fps). For me, the revolver points alot better, and that's worth a handful of extra rounds. Also, it puts all 5 in a 2 in group at 25 yards. I'm amused when gun mags excuse poor accuracy from conceal autos because that's "not what they're for".

 

All of the above said, if you find a conceal gun that has adequate power, reasonable reliability, and most importantly - you point it well, you probably have a winner.

 

I'm not saying that the revolver is not a well made, accurate, and reliable choice. As far as my ability with the revolver or the semi auto any time you want a friendly little competition, "I'm your Huckleberry".

I practice a couple of days a week. I am a firearms instructor and pretty much have unlimited range use and an endless supply of ammunition. I train continuosly for real world situations. In my world the bad guy does not stand still in the open waiting to be shot at. My bad guy is not a 4 inch circle waiting at the 25 or 50 yard line waiting for me to to get comfortable on a rest and take aim. He hides behind cover, he moves, I have to move, and I shoot while moving from cover to cover. In a real world situation you will fight like you train. Any military trained individual will tell you the best way to respond to a surprise attack or ambush (robbery, active shooter situation) is to go at the enemy and take the fight to them. It is a whole lot easier shooting and a non-moving target or a target that is running away than it is trying to hit someone that is coming to you and throwing rounds in your direction. The last thing I want to do is to try to fight through a surprise attack and find that once I get to the position for that fight ending shot that I have an empty weapon. The loudest sound in a gunfight "CLICK!". Hopefully you will never need your weapon to defend yourself. If you ever do, do you think the bad guy is going to come at you from the seven yard line and say "stickem up"? That's Hollywood bullshit! I have seen it, and I have been in it.

I'm not saying that the revolver is not a good choice for some. It is all personal preference. If you like your revolver then by all means carry it. A two shot derrenger is better than no gun at all.

You tell me that reliability is a problem with semi autos well we disagree. I have put thousands of rounds through my glocks and I have never had so much as a misfeed with any of them.

You have your opinions and I have mine and that is a good thing. I do not have a problem with a difference of opinion at all, but DO NOT tell me that I should practice more to be more comfortable with my revolver. I train constantly to be prepared for a fight should it come. If I am not at work, I am at the range, in the gym, or on the mat.

Share your opinion. You like a revolver carry it. You state the reason you prefer it over the auto that is fine. Just don't tell me my opinion is wrong and that I have that opinion because I lack certain skills and need practice.

 

So based on your experience and practice, I'd sure have to think you wouldn't be underserved by a revolver. Just maybe more served by an auto in your estimation. Good for you! I'm not trying to change your opinion at all, and you make many valuable points. My point was about being underserved by a revolver, and it sounds that based on your regimen of practice you would do pretty well within your first seven shots regardless.

 

The background for my comments is from having run a range for carry permit classes and seeing people consistently hit the ground instead of a target, then walking off the range saying they'd be doing so much better with a **** (insert expensive auto here). In that situation (which is the one I'm referring to, not yours in particular), it's pretty much a BS statement that the auto is better than a revolver (hence my general quote that practice is better than capacity, wasn't referring to YOU - sorry if you took offense). Per my last point, you have a winning combination for yourself.

 

Just explaining where I was coming from...

[quinci956 1]

Your opinions regarding auto pistols are very understandable, but it's not the great divide that you think it is. If you are talking service side arms, then yes a 15 round auto has a big upside. If you're talking concealed carry (what some of us in certain states have as our reality), then not so much...

 

The much loved 1911 carries 8 rounds or less in concealed trim, and concealable revolvers these days carry 7 rounds. I wouldn't think that giving up 1-2 rounds to avoid having to deal with cocked and locked is much of a sacrifice. If you feel more comfortable carrying 13 rounds of 9mm in a DAO, be my guest (but then that's an auto that doesn't start with a 4 - back to the poster's original point).

 

I'm not denying the 40 is a great choice, but if you feel you're under-served by 7 rounds of 357 magnum, you should practice more. I have had, and have seen, more than a fair share of reliability issues with autos (of the concealable nature) to know that revolvers ARE more reliable. And I'm comparing to the marquee names (Sig, springfield, beretta, kimber, etc).

 

Part of the revolvers appeal for me is the fact that it also serves a BUG role nicely, and shares the caliber platform with my stainless lever gun (at 2300fps). For me, the revolver points alot better, and that's worth a handful of extra rounds. Also, it puts all 5 in a 2 in group at 25 yards. I'm amused when gun mags excuse poor accuracy from conceal autos because that's "not what they're for".

 

All of the above said, if you find a conceal gun that has adequate power, reasonable reliability, and most importantly - you point it well, you probably have a winner.

 

I'm not saying that the revolver is not a well made, accurate, and reliable choice. As far as my ability with the revolver or the semi auto any time you want a friendly little competition, "I'm your Huckleberry".

I practice a couple of days a week. I am a firearms instructor and pretty much have unlimited range use and an endless supply of ammunition. I train continuosly for real world situations. In my world the bad guy does not stand still in the open waiting to be shot at. My bad guy is not a 4 inch circle waiting at the 25 or 50 yard line waiting for me to to get comfortable on a rest and take aim. He hides behind cover, he moves, I have to move, and I shoot while moving from cover to cover. In a real world situation you will fight like you train. Any military trained individual will tell you the best way to respond to a surprise attack or ambush (robbery, active shooter situation) is to go at the enemy and take the fight to them. It is a whole lot easier shooting and a non-moving target or a target that is running away than it is trying to hit someone that is coming to you and throwing rounds in your direction. The last thing I want to do is to try to fight through a surprise attack and find that once I get to the position for that fight ending shot that I have an empty weapon. The loudest sound in a gunfight "CLICK!". Hopefully you will never need your weapon to defend yourself. If you ever do, do you think the bad guy is going to come at you from the seven yard line and say "stickem up"? That's Hollywood bullshit! I have seen it, and I have been in it.

I'm not saying that the revolver is not a good choice for some. It is all personal preference. If you like your revolver then by all means carry it. A two shot derrenger is better than no gun at all.

You tell me that reliability is a problem with semi autos well we disagree. I have put thousands of rounds through my glocks and I have never had so much as a misfeed with any of them.

You have your opinions and I have mine and that is a good thing. I do not have a problem with a difference of opinion at all, but DO NOT tell me that I should practice more to be more comfortable with my revolver. I train constantly to be prepared for a fight should it come. If I am not at work, I am at the range, in the gym, or on the mat.

Share your opinion. You like a revolver carry it. You state the reason you prefer it over the auto that is fine. Just don't tell me my opinion is wrong and that I have that opinion because I lack certain skills and need practice.

 

So based on your experience and practice, I'd sure have to think you wouldn't be underserved by a revolver. Just maybe more served by an auto in your estimation. Good for you! I'm not trying to change your opinion at all, and you make many valuable points. My point was about being underserved by a revolver, and it sounds that based on your regimen of practice you would do pretty well within your first seven shots regardless.

 

The background for my comments is from having run a range for carry permit classes and seeing people consistently hit the ground instead of a target, then walking off the range saying they'd be doing so much better with a **** (insert expensive auto here). In that situation (which is the one I'm referring to, not yours in particular), it's pretty much a BS statement that the auto is better than a revolver (hence my general quote that practice is better than capacity, wasn't referring to YOU - sorry if you took offense). Per my last point, you have a winning combination for yourself.

 

Just explaining where I was coming from...

 

I would agree that for a beginner or someone that carries but seldom shoots that the revolver is the way to go. There is less chance of a brain cramp when things go suddenly bad and the tension levels go through the roof causing fine motor skills to suddenly become nonexistant. I'll give you that. I will even go as far as saying that a new shooter should learn on a revolver and then transition to a semi auto when they feel comfortable. I just see a lot of people that have a false sense of security because they are packing their 5 shot chief's special and feel that they are ready for anything. I did misread your intent and felt you were attacking my training habits so I got a little defensive.

 

We will have to disagree about me being underserved by a revolver as a concealed carry gun. There are shootings constantly throughout the country where someone goes into a mall, school, hospital, cafe, ect. and starts executing people. These shooters will pick a place with the most people and the least oposition. Their goal is to kill as many as possible before they kill themselves or have the police do it for them. They are usually armed to the teeth with lots of amunition. Columbine is the most known example but there have been dozens of others. I can give you specific examples and dates if needed. The point I was making, If I am out to dinner with my family, at the mall, dropping my kids off at school or any other public place, and some knuckle head who feels that he is not loved by the world and wants to die and take as many as he can with him comes to that same location and opens fire. When I hear the rounds going off I want to be able to deal with it and not worry about counting my shots because I only have six. Imagine the feeling you would have if you were walking through the mall with your family and shots started ringing out and they were getting closer and all you have is your trusty wheelgun.

This threat is very real. We stopped a Columbine type school shooting here before the shooters were able to act out their plan. This is happening and all it would take in any one of these incidents is some sort of armed opposition to cut it short. I prepare for the worst case scenario so that when I or someone near me is targeted for some sort of violent act I will be overly prepared.

 

There are no hard feelings here. We have different but strong opinions on this subject and that is fine. We can't agree on everything as long as we do agree to carry something that will throw lead down range I'm good with that.

Edited May 20, 2007 by madmilo

[quinci956 1]

Not to argue with you Milo and not wanting to take this thread too much farther off topic but every time I think of the old wheel gun vs. auto pistol and speed loading I can't help but think of this. AMAZING!

enjoy...

fastshooter.wmv

 

Yeah I have seen that guy before and that is impressive. I'll bet he goes to the range at least once or twice a year.

[quinci956 1]

Not to argue with you Milo and not wanting to take this thread too much farther off topic but every time I think of the old wheel gun vs. auto pistol and speed loading I can't help but think of this. AMAZING!

enjoy...

fastshooter.wmv

 

That guy in the video is not "Buckandaquarterstaff" is it. If so I would like to apologize about that little "Huckleberry" remark. Just kidding about that.

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

"Imagine the feeling you would have if you were walking through the mall with your family and shots started ringing out and they were getting closer and all you have is your trusty wheelgun."

 

That's exactly when I'd want the wheelgun instead of the auto (and I wouldn't feel underserved). I'm a far better shot with a revolver than with an auto. I've normally got 15 to 21 rounds at my disposal, and can reload after number 5 or 7 in all of 4 seconds. I would say though, that a revolver without a full length extractor is not a good choice in a gunfight. With the full length extractor it's a couple seconds given up for hitting what I'm aiming at. That is a choice I've been willing to make for some time. Now if the bad guy wanted to step 10 inches to the right immediately after I pulled the trigger, then the DAO would be my first choice But hey, that part's definately just me...

 

I've tried getting as good with different autos as I am with the revolver. I can do about as well with my full size 10mm, but I can't carry it except in winter. A 357 vs 10mm is pretty much a horse apiece. I do like the fact that the 10 holds 15 rounds, but they do tend to print on a guy.

 

No prob with strong opinions. I'm just happy there are more folks around that can hit what they're aiming at.

Edited May 21, 2007 by buckandaquarterquarterstaff

[quinci956 1]

"Imagine the feeling you would have if you were walking through the mall with your family and shots started ringing out and they were getting closer and all you have is your trusty wheelgun."

 

That's exactly when I'd want the wheelgun instead of the auto (and I wouldn't feel underserved). I'm a far better shot with a revolver than with an auto. I've normally got 15 to 21 rounds at my disposal, and can reload after number 5 or 7 in all of 4 seconds. I would say though, that a revolver without a full length extractor is not a good choice in a gunfight. With the full length extractor it's a couple seconds given up for hitting what I'm aiming at. That is a choice I've been willing to make for some time. Now if the bad guy wanted to step 10 inches to the right immediately after I pulled the trigger, then the DAO would be my first choice But hey, that part's definately just me...

 

I've tried getting as good with different autos as I am with the revolver. I can do about as well with my full size 10mm, but I can't carry it except in winter. A 357 vs 10mm is pretty much a horse apiece. I do like the fact that the 10 holds 15 rounds, but they do tend to print on a guy.

 

No prob with strong opinions. I'm just happy there are more folks around that can hit what they're aiming at.

 

If you practice with a revolver and are confident with it then that is what you should carry along with extra ammunition. When you are faced with a life and death situation that is not the time to try new things. You will go on auto pilot, fine motor skills go away, and you will have to fight off tunnel vision. You will fight how you train without thinking. If you have trained with the revolver then that had better be what you pull out of that concealed holster. At that point your body will know what to do from muscle memory and that is the wrong time to try out a new gun.

We got off on the wrong foot due to a misunderstanding. It appears that we are saying the same thing but you prefer your wheelgun a I would rather carry my Glock. Just carry something you are proficient with and be prepared to use it if needed.

Have you heard of the 1999 study by economists John Lott and William Landes. They found that states that allow citizens to carry concealed handguns suffer 60 percent fewer multipl-shooting attacks and 80 percent fewer deaths from such attacks.

[Bad Bob 0]

try telling that to all the cops that have been shot with 20 round handguns and or rifles while they were striking a spent chamber after 6 shots.

Now, back when I had more contact with LEOs that were issued .357s, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM was issued 'politically correct' .38 Special ammo for it. That's not a problem for a private citizen.

 

I like the fact that revolvers are almost fail-safe, but I wouldnt primarily rely on a 6 shot anything if I had to knowingly walk into a firefight. excellent carry and survival gun, not very good for combat types of situations, if you ask me.

If I had to "knowingly walk into a firefight" I wouldn't rely on a handgun, period. I would rely on a 12-gauge shotgun or a rifle - either one with the best ammo I could provide (meaning not 'department issue').

 

As for revolvers, I'm a gray-haired-old-fart, and I've lived through all sorts of firearm 'fads.' The older I get, the more I appreciate quality double-action revolvers. 'Fool-proof' is not without its blessings. If you have a problem with 'effectiveness,' I would suggest that you just go to a larger caliber (OR better ammunition - .38 Special ain't half bad with proper loads). In my humble opinion, one center-of-mass hit with a decent round beats a dozen misses with anything. And FWIW, I've owned revolvers up to 476 caliber (and wish I hadn't sold my .476 ;>)...

 

All of which I'm sure you already knew; just spouting off...

[quinci956 1]

try telling that to all the cops that have been shot with 20 round handguns and or rifles while they were striking a spent chamber after 6 shots.

Now, back when I had more contact with LEOs that were issued .357s, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM was issued 'politically correct' .38 Special ammo for it. That's not a problem for a private citizen.

 

I like the fact that revolvers are almost fail-safe, but I wouldnt primarily rely on a 6 shot anything if I had to knowingly walk into a firefight. excellent carry and survival gun, not very good for combat types of situations, if you ask me.

If I had to "knowingly walk into a firefight" I wouldn't rely on a handgun, period. I would rely on a 12-gauge shotgun or a rifle - either one with the best ammo I could provide (meaning not 'department issue').

 

As for revolvers, I'm a gray-haired-old-fart, and I've lived through all sorts of firearm 'fads.' The older I get, the more I appreciate quality double-action revolvers. 'Fool-proof' is not without its blessings. If you have a problem with 'effectiveness,' I would suggest that you just go to a larger caliber (OR better ammunition - .38 Special ain't half bad with proper loads). In my humble opinion, one center-of-mass hit with a decent round beats a dozen misses with anything. And FWIW, I've owned revolvers up to 476 caliber (and wish I hadn't sold my .476 ;>)...

 

All of which I'm sure you already knew; just spouting off...

 

 

I was one of those officers that carried a 357 and was issued 38 plus p silvertips. As I stated in one of my previous rantings I agree that one well placed hit is better than many near miss. We had a guy here many years back armed with a shotgun intent on killing his son. Two officers confronted him one armed with the 38 and one armed with an HK P7M8. To make a long story short, the bad guy ended up with about 13 holes in him including both entrance and exit wounds before he laid down and stopped his aggressive behavior. He did not die and he was not hurt bad enough to warrant a long hospital stay. Out of all the hits not one was a center mass hit. He was hit in the arms and only grazing shots accross the body, nothing penetrated the chest cavity or hit anything vital. This guy stopped because he was tired of taking grazing hits not because he was unable to continue. This guy was in his 70's. In this incident it worked out but what about the guy that is a headstrong suicidal lunatic.

[Bad Bob 0]

I was one of those officers that carried a 357 and was issued 38 plus p silvertips. As I stated in one of my previous rantings I agree that one well placed hit is better than many near miss. We had a guy here many years back armed with a shotgun intent on killing his son. Two officers confronted him one armed with the 38 and one armed with an HK P7M8. To make a long story short, the bad guy ended up with about 13 holes in him including both entrance and exit wounds before he laid down and stopped his aggressive behavior. He did not die and he was not hurt bad enough to warrant a long hospital stay. Out of all the hits not one was a center mass hit. He was hit in the arms and only grazing shots accross the body, nothing penetrated the chest cavity or hit anything vital. This guy stopped because he was tired of taking grazing hits not because he was unable to continue. This guy was in his 70's. In this incident it worked out but what about the guy that is a headstrong suicidal lunatic.

 

Excellent point, Sir!

[Bvamp 604]

well Im not argueing anyone here.

 

I will say that alaskan trappers carry REVOLVERS. granted a polar bear or grizzly isnt going to shoot back, but you better not have to screw with the gun when that thing is on top of you.

 

I will also say that revolvers are more accurate for ME. I can drill regular stationary skeet with one at long pistol range (50-75 yards), and I have never done the same with anywhere NEAR the same results with an auto. I live in NY, so it is always a fellow shooter's gun, not my own. I have my reasons for not having a CCW here, and none of them are of a criminal nature....some good stories, but I wont be able to put them nicely, so I will refrain.

 

BUT

 

I DO keep my 12 gauge loaded at all times with 15 pellet buckshot and slugs (special ones I made, by the way. close approximation is a 3" copper solid sabot with a hardened machine screw threaded into it. mine are overloaded and are also moulded in one piece though.) and I also keep a pair of 7.62x39 mags loaded with milsurp AP ammo that I have the gun sighted to, with a tracer every 4 rounds, just in case.

[Bad Bob 0]

well Im not argueing anyone here.

I'm not arguing with you, either, Sir - thanks for the input (and remind me not to wear a bear costume anywhere near your house, especially if I've had a few too many beers... ;>)

[Bvamp 604]

no joke, we have some decent critters here. we had a bear here that was ok, but got run over on the taconic parkway a couple weeks ago. we got a moose that for some reason came down from maine and is STAYING here. (quite unusual), I have a fox den outside with 5 of those suckers in it that want to eat my cat and I cant just shoot or trap without an ordeal, and we even have a RABID fisher. a fisher is a 3-4 foot long ferrit with a 40 mile radius for where it goes. VERY nasty critter when rabid. its quick, very dangerous, and isnt afraid of humans as it is. buckshot. thats all Im saying, in my case.

 

have a good machinist make you some solid teflon inserts for your copper solids....its REAL expensive stuff, but if you MUST carry a shotgun on-duty, try that. it will end anybody, probably behind almost anything, especially if you load the shells a bit over max dram and shoot them out of a rifled pump gun that is chambered for 3". its a lot easier than what I do, but a bit more expensive. also keep a couple magnesium rounds just in case you are fighting someone with night vision......(I probably shouldnt say that on an open forum, but there you go, guys.)

 

handguns are the right choice for defense all day and night when you are on the move, but if you can, Im just agreeing with madmilo here, and that you should have something a bit more destructive availible.

 

...especially if you plan to ever be able to REALLY defend yourself. dont ever get outgunned, and dont get killed or hurt badly because you brought a tube mag 22 or gun that you cannot reload in a REAL fast fashion with lots of rounds. many a human being has been killed for lack of fighting back.

 

just seems like simple logic to me.

[Bad Bob 0]

...many a human being has been killed for lack of fighting back.

 

just seems like simple logic to me.

Amen to that, Sir...