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quinci956

AR-15 vs. Saiga .223

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please dont call me sir. its ben. :)

You got it, Ben. I just tend to call everyone "sir," or "ma'am" (probably because of the way I was brought up, way back in the 'dark ages' - although I don't always remember to do it in print, so anyone else, please don't take it personal if I forget to do it when I post here). Except those that lose my respect, of course, in which group, you are definitely not!

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Well, anyway, back to the AR vs. Saiga topic....

 

 

 

 

I think the AR is definitely back in tip-top shape with HK's recent perfecting of the weapon.

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I think the AR is definitely back in tip-top shape with HK's recent perfecting of the weapon.

I'm guessing that it uses a gas piston, like the FAL & AK? And hopefully an adjustable gas system, like the FAL?

 

;>)

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yeh, but can you clear the weapon if you have a catastophic jam that you cant eject? or do you have to lay down and die while you disassemble the AR15, when the buttstock trick dont clear it? that is the ONE thing I never liked about the ar15, and its a pretty big deal, if you ask me.

 

just because of that one reason, Id think a saiga is a better choice.

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Our department recently approved our Officers to carry .223 patrol rifles in their vehicles instead of or along with the shotgun. I was able to get the Saiga approved due to the price of most AR-15's. I bought mine and fumbled my way through the conversion process and ended up with what I thought was a decent rifle. I torture tested the rifle over several months. It is my experience as the armorer for my department that Officers tend to treat their weapons like a lawn mower. Use the heck out of it and throw it back in the shed. I fired over 3 cases of ammunition through it without so much as oiling it just kept on shooting. Every now and then I would stick my finger in there and wipe off the feed ramp but that is hardly what I call a good cleaning.

Back to my point. Last month we had our patrol rifle qualification. The qualification course starts at the 100 yd line then the shooter has to run through a move and shoot course. There are several different barracades to shoot from and several targets. The course is a 30 round course with 2 required magazine changes. Two runs through the course required for qualification. I qualified with my SWAT M-16 (10" barrel) equipped with a C-More A-Tac sight. I then qualified with my Bushmaster modular carbine also equiped with a C-More A-Tac. I did very well with both. I had no misses and my times were among the fastest in the department. I then pulled out my used and abused Saiga with no optics out of my trunk. A sling is required due to a required transistion to handgun at the end so I took some webbing material (old belt and duct tape) and made an improvised sling. I then ran the course with the Saiga. I not only hit the targets every time but my groups were just as tight as they were with the two previous rifles. I also beat my previous times by about 6 to 10 seconds.

I saw the other Officers that were qualifying with their purchased Saigas and was impressed by their scores so that prompted me to try mine. My poor little abused green monster has earned a place in my cruiser. I challenge anyone to shoot 3 cases of ammunition through an AR-15 without cleaning it. I still love my Eugene Stoner creations but for the price (mine was $250.00 when I bought it, then another $150 in the parts to convert it) and simplicity the Saiga is hard to beat.

 

 

Madmilo:

 

Sorry about this, but when I rposted your cool post in my club's forum, I was immediately bombarded by the psycho AR guys that can't get their heads around $250 for a fine carbine vs. $2,500 for another (their) carbine, especially one that may or may not be as good.

 

Could yopu please tell me which department you work out of? These sad so-and-sos are implying that you are not for real. i.e., "no department would EVER let an officer carry an AK because of the negative connotations, blah, blah. . . . " Help me shut them up.

 

Thanks much, guy.

Edited by inparidel

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Our department recently approved our Officers to carry .223 patrol rifles in their vehicles instead of or along with the shotgun. I was able to get the Saiga approved due to the price of most AR-15's. I bought mine and fumbled my way through the conversion process and ended up with what I thought was a decent rifle. I torture tested the rifle over several months. It is my experience as the armorer for my department that Officers tend to treat their weapons like a lawn mower. Use the heck out of it and throw it back in the shed. I fired over 3 cases of ammunition through it without so much as oiling it just kept on shooting. Every now and then I would stick my finger in there and wipe off the feed ramp but that is hardly what I call a good cleaning.

Back to my point. Last month we had our patrol rifle qualification. The qualification course starts at the 100 yd line then the shooter has to run through a move and shoot course. There are several different barracades to shoot from and several targets. The course is a 30 round course with 2 required magazine changes. Two runs through the course required for qualification. I qualified with my SWAT M-16 (10" barrel) equipped with a C-More A-Tac sight. I then qualified with my Bushmaster modular carbine also equiped with a C-More A-Tac. I did very well with both. I had no misses and my times were among the fastest in the department. I then pulled out my used and abused Saiga with no optics out of my trunk. A sling is required due to a required transistion to handgun at the end so I took some webbing material (old belt and duct tape) and made an improvised sling. I then ran the course with the Saiga. I not only hit the targets every time but my groups were just as tight as they were with the two previous rifles. I also beat my previous times by about 6 to 10 seconds.

I saw the other Officers that were qualifying with their purchased Saigas and was impressed by their scores so that prompted me to try mine. My poor little abused green monster has earned a place in my cruiser. I challenge anyone to shoot 3 cases of ammunition through an AR-15 without cleaning it. I still love my Eugene Stoner creations but for the price (mine was $250.00 when I bought it, then another $150 in the parts to convert it) and simplicity the Saiga is hard to beat.

 

 

Madmilo:

 

Sorry about this, but when I rposted your cool post in my club's forum, I was immediately bombarded by the psycho AR guys that can't get their heads around $250 for a fine carbine vs. $2,500 for another (their) carbine, especially one that may or may not be as good.

 

Could yopu please tell me which department you work out of? These sad so-and-sos are implying that you are not for real. i.e., "no department would EVER let an officer carry an AK because of the negative connotations, blah, blah. . . . " Help me shut them up.

 

Thanks much, guy.

I sent you a message w/cell number call me and we will talk about it. What negative connotations? We can carry all sorts of AR 15 type weapons with all types of add on do-dads and that is alright, but an AK is negative. What is it too scary looking? It is that type of politcally correct B.S. that has screwed up more government organizations and not just law enforcement. Thankfully I live in an area that I can carry a tool based on it's performance now how friendly it looks. Maybe if I painted it baby blue with little pink bunnies on the sides then these people could belive me. I am more than a little amped at being called a lier. Thanks for the web address I will be joining your club forum. I just hope you have a fight club section there.

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Our department recently approved our Officers to carry .223 patrol rifles in their vehicles instead of or along with the shotgun. I was able to get the Saiga approved due to the price of most AR-15's. I bought mine and fumbled my way through the conversion process and ended up with what I thought was a decent rifle. I torture tested the rifle over several months. It is my experience as the armorer for my department that Officers tend to treat their weapons like a lawn mower. Use the heck out of it and throw it back in the shed. I fired over 3 cases of ammunition through it without so much as oiling it just kept on shooting. Every now and then I would stick my finger in there and wipe off the feed ramp but that is hardly what I call a good cleaning.

Back to my point. Last month we had our patrol rifle qualification. The qualification course starts at the 100 yd line then the shooter has to run through a move and shoot course. There are several different barracades to shoot from and several targets. The course is a 30 round course with 2 required magazine changes. Two runs through the course required for qualification. I qualified with my SWAT M-16 (10" barrel) equipped with a C-More A-Tac sight. I then qualified with my Bushmaster modular carbine also equiped with a C-More A-Tac. I did very well with both. I had no misses and my times were among the fastest in the department. I then pulled out my used and abused Saiga with no optics out of my trunk. A sling is required due to a required transistion to handgun at the end so I took some webbing material (old belt and duct tape) and made an improvised sling. I then ran the course with the Saiga. I not only hit the targets every time but my groups were just as tight as they were with the two previous rifles. I also beat my previous times by about 6 to 10 seconds.

I saw the other Officers that were qualifying with their purchased Saigas and was impressed by their scores so that prompted me to try mine. My poor little abused green monster has earned a place in my cruiser. I challenge anyone to shoot 3 cases of ammunition through an AR-15 without cleaning it. I still love my Eugene Stoner creations but for the price (mine was $250.00 when I bought it, then another $150 in the parts to convert it) and simplicity the Saiga is hard to beat.

 

 

Madmilo:

 

Sorry about this, but when I rposted your cool post in my club's forum, I was immediately bombarded by the psycho AR guys that can't get their heads around $250 for a fine carbine vs. $2,500 for another (their) carbine, especially one that may or may not be as good.

 

Could yopu please tell me which department you work out of? These sad so-and-sos are implying that you are not for real. i.e., "no department would EVER let an officer carry an AK because of the negative connotations, blah, blah. . . . " Help me shut them up.

 

Thanks much, guy.

When I started this topic I was just happy about how my .223 turned out and the results at the range compared to my AR's. I never expected it to get this far.

Well with that said I took my S12 to SWAT training last Thursday and challenged one of my team mates and his Bennelli. He loves his Bennelli and calls it his pitbull. I am alright with that. He has a weapon that he trusts and he is very proficient with. He then looked at my S12 and called it a piece of crap and then started praising his Bennelli and how fast he could shoot it on target. I took offense! I loaded my 10 round AGP and he loaded his tube with 6 (thats all it holds and good luck on a speedy reload). We stepped to the 7 and when told to fire we unloaded. I fired 10 as fast as he fired 6 and I cut my target in half. We were shooting birdshot. I chose that mainly because the Bennellis have had problems feeding the stuff and I wanted to make an additional point but he did not have any trouble that day.

That S12 is what I carry in patrol and why not? Because it looks mean? Never mind the fact that it holds 5 or 10 depending on the magazine as opposed to the 870 4 and the Bennelli 6. Forget about the fact that it performs or outperforms both the 870 and the Bennelli. I can also reload one magazine faster than I can one shell at a time. I aslo don't have to carry extra ammunition in a box, bag, sling, old sock, or whatever. It is loaded in the magazines already so I don't have loose shotgun shells rattleing around in my car. I realize that the S12 may not give the badguy the warm and fuzzies when he sees it coming at him. Good! Maybe he will get smart and I won't be required to use it.

I am fed up with these PC panty waist whiners. They need to get fly paper to put around their ankles to keep the ants off of their candy asses and leave the work to the men and women that actually have to do it.

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Saiga .223 vs. AR-15 thread that gets turned into a shotgun-style penile comparison contest.....

 

 

Gotta love it. :D

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lol @ "...fly paper to put around their ankles to keep the ants off of their candy asses..."

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Our department recently approved our Officers to carry .223 patrol rifles in their vehicles instead of or along with the shotgun. I was able to get the Saiga approved due to the price of most AR-15's. I bought mine and fumbled my way through the conversion process and ended up with what I thought was a decent rifle. I torture tested the rifle over several months. It is my experience as the armorer for my department that Officers tend to treat their weapons like a lawn mower. Use the heck out of it and throw it back in the shed. I fired over 3 cases of ammunition through it without so much as oiling it just kept on shooting. Every now and then I would stick my finger in there and wipe off the feed ramp but that is hardly what I call a good cleaning.

Back to my point. Last month we had our patrol rifle qualification. The qualification course starts at the 100 yd line then the shooter has to run through a move and shoot course. There are several different barracades to shoot from and several targets. The course is a 30 round course with 2 required magazine changes. Two runs through the course required for qualification. I qualified with my SWAT M-16 (10" barrel) equipped with a C-More A-Tac sight. I then qualified with my Bushmaster modular carbine also equiped with a C-More A-Tac. I did very well with both. I had no misses and my times were among the fastest in the department. I then pulled out my used and abused Saiga with no optics out of my trunk. A sling is required due to a required transistion to handgun at the end so I took some webbing material (old belt and duct tape) and made an improvised sling. I then ran the course with the Saiga. I not only hit the targets every time but my groups were just as tight as they were with the two previous rifles. I also beat my previous times by about 6 to 10 seconds.

I saw the other Officers that were qualifying with their purchased Saigas and was impressed by their scores so that prompted me to try mine. My poor little abused green monster has earned a place in my cruiser. I challenge anyone to shoot 3 cases of ammunition through an AR-15 without cleaning it. I still love my Eugene Stoner creations but for the price (mine was $250.00 when I bought it, then another $150 in the parts to convert it) and simplicity the Saiga is hard to beat.

 

 

Madmilo:

 

Sorry about this, but when I rposted your cool post in my club's forum, I was immediately bombarded by the psycho AR guys that can't get their heads around $250 for a fine carbine vs. $2,500 for another (their) carbine, especially one that may or may not be as good.

 

Could yopu please tell me which department you work out of? These sad so-and-sos are implying that you are not for real. i.e., "no department would EVER let an officer carry an AK because of the negative connotations, blah, blah. . . . " Help me shut them up.

 

Thanks much, guy.

I tried to join your other forum so I could defend myself but they sent me an E-mail saying that I have to use my name or a derivative of it. I also have to send them an E-mail telling them about myself and who I am. Is that normal or do they just want me to stay off of their forum?

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Are you shooting Wolf ammo through it. I am the m16/ar15 armorer for my department and my guys have ar15's made by many different companies (Colt, Bushmaster, DPMS, Doublestar, and some Frankenstien guns made with Wilson uppers like the ones used by Rock River Arms). The Wolf stuff has some sort of plastic or laquer coating that gums up the chamber and in addition to that the gas tubes get partially clogged on a heavy diet of those.

 

 

Are you sure it's not the lacquer/sealant? I have read that the problem really is the fact that the casings are made of steel, which doesn't expand like the brass casings do when fired. The brass casing will expand to seal off the chamber and keep the powder residue from getting into the chamber and coating it. The FTE problems occur in rifles with tight clearances like the AR-15. It has been said that someone would run the steel cases through, and eventually have it jam up a lot, and when going back to the brass cases, the problem would stop until steel cases were used again. The AK rifles were made with loose clearances (NOT loose tolerances - two different things here), thusly the rifle can run for a long time before cleaning is needed. However, you do see the red sealant in the barrel and gas tube, but it doesn't explain the jams because some steel cases can be bought without the red sealant, and it would still jam up in the same rifles. You have to match up the ammo with the intended gun.

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Older lacquer coated Wolf ammo would jam in the chambers of some AR-15's. I had to bend up a perfectly good G.I. cleaning rod when a shooting buddy left a Wolf round in his AR chamber after a long shooting session. The lacquer coated round literally "hot-glued" itself into the hot chamber and when it cooled it took some effort to extract. I have not witnessed this problem with the polymer-coated Wolf ammo which I believe is a Russian version of teflon.

The steel cases used by Russian ammunition manufacturers is really quite soft and usually seals the chamber very well during cartridge ignition.

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heres a trick for you AR guys with a milspec buttstock..

 

when you have a lodged case, either from a partial feed that hangs and cannot be advanced with the bolt advance, or when you have a case stick like you mentioned above, and you cannot (well you arent supposed to, either way), use the bolt charging handle to remedy the problem, and you are thinking of rodding the gun....try THIS instead.

 

first, you have to be very concious of your muzzle direction. you eject the magazine, and holding the AR by the forward grip or barrel if it isnt smoking hot, turn the magwell AND the ejection port AWAY from yourself and anyone nearby. angle the barrel about 25 degrees away from your head, and firmyl strike the buttplate against the ground tword you, straight at the ground, so that you get maximum force. be sure the magwell, ejection port, and muzzle are not pointing tword anyone if there is a live round in the chamber. it should only take a couple of hard strikes on the ground to eject any stuck case.

 

you can try this safely as a test by taking a hammer to a spent casing, denting the shoulder, and lodgeing it into the chamber partway manually. I think you AR guyss will be quite surprised. it works almost every time, and if you need to call on the trick when someone is shooting at you or someone else, you will see that it is far better than trying to take down the gun or rodding it.

 

I wouldnt do this with cheap telescoping or folding stocks. It is meant for a1 and a2 type stocks, but should also work on the more expensive milspec telescoping stocks without hurting them.

 

try it. it might save your life in a jam.

 

at least you can do a basic field strip on a saiga rifle and hammer a rod down the bore, or kick the bolt with your foot. you cant do EITHER with an ar15.\

 

ronswin: you should get your buddy to break his habit of leaving a hot round in a chamber that is that hot. it could have cooked off on him. should really open the bolt and hold it back while the gun is hot like that, so that nothing is chambered AND the bolt isnt laying on top of the top round in the mag.

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heres a trick for you AR guys with a milspec buttstock..

 

when you have a lodged case, either from a partial feed that hangs and cannot be advanced with the bolt advance, or when you have a case stick like you mentioned above, and you cannot (well you arent supposed to, either way), use the bolt charging handle to remedy the problem, and you are thinking of rodding the gun....try THIS instead.

 

first, you have to be very concious of your muzzle direction. you eject the magazine, and holding the AR by the forward grip or barrel if it isnt smoking hot, turn the magwell AND the ejection port AWAY from yourself and anyone nearby. angle the barrel about 25 degrees away from your head, and firmyl strike the buttplate against the ground tword you, straight at the ground, so that you get maximum force. be sure the magwell, ejection port, and muzzle are not pointing tword anyone if there is a live round in the chamber. it should only take a couple of hard strikes on the ground to eject any stuck case.

 

you can try this safely as a test by taking a hammer to a spent casing, denting the shoulder, and lodgeing it into the chamber partway manually. I think you AR guyss will be quite surprised. it works almost every time, and if you need to call on the trick when someone is shooting at you or someone else, you will see that it is far better than trying to take down the gun or rodding it.

 

I wouldnt do this with cheap telescoping or folding stocks. It is meant for a1 and a2 type stocks, but should also work on the more expensive milspec telescoping stocks without hurting them.

 

try it. it might save your life in a jam.

 

at least you can do a basic field strip on a saiga rifle and hammer a rod down the bore, or kick the bolt with your foot. you cant do EITHER with an ar15.\

 

ronswin: you should get your buddy to break his habit of leaving a hot round in a chamber that is that hot. it could have cooked off on him. should really open the bolt and hold it back while the gun is hot like that, so that nothing is chambered AND the bolt isnt laying on top of the top round in the mag.

You can also "kick start" the AR's with the cheap stocks. Put the butt on the ground with the muzzle pointed up but away from your face. Then use your boot to work the charging handle from the left side so the catch is open allowing the handle to move back.

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well, in both the AR, and the saigas with the BHO, you can just bump the butt on the ground to chamber your first round, as well. I was outshooting experienced wing hunters in short range skeet both in number of clay croken, and the speed at which I was able to chamber and fire, from an open bolt unshouldered with my s12 before sending it off to florida. I was allowing them to start with thier pump guns shouldered unsafed and loaded, and was still pissing them off.

 

madmilo: that sounds like a good way to rip your charging handle off, actually. the method I was suggesting is to clear a catastrophic stuck case/round without having to do a tear-down. I am always surprised at how many AR guys never heard of it.

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I am new to the Saiga in 223, though I have several AR's. My experience with Wolf ammo in an AR was short; first round "Bang", second round "Bang"... no eject. Yep, glued itself right in thar! Sold the lot shortly thereafter. I have not had any failures of Wolf 7.62x39 in any weapon (AK and SKS). I am hestitant to subject my Saiga to the same "torture test" of 223 Wolf, but feel a tad more confident after visiting here.

 

I'll have to do a side-by-side between my Saiga and AR's next time I am at the range. I have always heard that the AR platform outperformed the AK, but I like to test the waters for myself.

 

I bought the 223 Saiga on an impulse, and am happy with it so far. It has been enjoyable to tinker with mags (Weiger and Galil so far) to feed the beast. Until there is a reliable mag for the AR in 7.62x39, I'm religated to the AK.

 

AS far as the S-12 goes... it'll be my next gun purchase.

 

buckmeister

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well, in both the AR, and the saigas with the BHO, you can just bump the butt on the ground to chamber your first round, as well. I was outshooting experienced wing hunters in short range skeet both in number of clay croken, and the speed at which I was able to chamber and fire, from an open bolt unshouldered with my s12 before sending it off to florida. I was allowing them to start with thier pump guns shouldered unsafed and loaded, and was still pissing them off.

 

madmilo: that sounds like a good way to rip your charging handle off, actually. the method I was suggesting is to clear a catastrophic stuck case/round without having to do a tear-down. I am always surprised at how many AR guys never heard of it.

Bvamp

That is how I was told to clear the weapon when I went through the Colt armourer's course. I have seen them cleared both ways. I was just giving another option should you have the plastic collapsable stock or in a position where you did not have a solid place to strike it on the ground (mud or loose sand conditions).

Believe it or not I have had to clear several AR's with this method. It ussually happens on range day and some fellow Officer jams his gun. I find that he has used a steady diet of Wolf and has not cleaned his weapon regularly if at all.

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I am new to the Saiga in 223, though I have several AR's. My experience with Wolf ammo in an AR was short; first round "Bang", second round "Bang"... no eject. Yep, glued itself right in thar! Sold the lot shortly thereafter. I have not had any failures of Wolf 7.62x39 in any weapon (AK and SKS). I am hestitant to subject my Saiga to the same "torture test" of 223 Wolf, but feel a tad more confident after visiting here.

 

I'll have to do a side-by-side between my Saiga and AR's next time I am at the range. I have always heard that the AR platform outperformed the AK, but I like to test the waters for myself.

 

I bought the 223 Saiga on an impulse, and am happy with it so far. It has been enjoyable to tinker with mags (Weiger and Galil so far) to feed the beast. Until there is a reliable mag for the AR in 7.62x39, I'm religated to the AK.

 

AS far as the S-12 goes... it'll be my next gun purchase.

 

buckmeister

I think the AK gets it's reputation for poor accuracy from the 762 round. I have both and my 223 is more accurate that my 762. There is also some question about the accuracy of the gas piston but I have not seen it. Maybe thats why all of the AR makers are trying to go to that set up.

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I think the AK gets it's reputation for poor accuracy from the 762 round. I have both and my 223 is more accurate that my 762. There is also some question about the accuracy of the gas piston but I have not seen it. Maybe thats why all of the AR makers are trying to go to that set up.

 

I like the ARES style drop-in AR system (i.e. one piece carrier) even though it was viewed as vaporware for a while. There is little question that the piston systems run cleaner... again, I am pleased with my Saiga.

 

Now... if I can just find a way to feed it with AR mags without having to mod the gun beyond recognition. Would my modified Weiger and Orlite mags still work in a Saiga that had the area under the locking lugs relieved to accept AR mags? The front of the AK mags now sit tightly against this area and I fear that any alteration to the weapon would prevent a tight fit.

 

I know, I want my cake and eat it too.

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Now... if I can just find a way to feed it with AR mags without having to mod the gun beyond recognition. Would my modified Weiger and Orlite mags still work in a Saiga that had the area under the locking lugs relieved to accept AR mags? The front of the AK mags now sit tightly against this area and I fear that any alteration to the weapon would prevent a tight fit.

 

I know, I want my cake and eat it too.

 

Now now its not that bad ;)

 

but I still need to come up with a fix for stock AK style mags so they are not loose. 74's are tightest at the trigger guard and stock orlites are tightest at the front trunion. I won't get to shoot til next week but I think the stock mags will work but be loose. I am coming up with a fix for the looseness. Modified orlites would be even worse.

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