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Reloading Equipment, Pros & Cons...


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Hello, buckandaquarterquarterstaff and anybody else...

 

I'm thinking seriously about obtaining some reloading gear and supplies. I'm looking to be prepared for ammo draught in many calibers, as a response to possibly not being able to regulate gun sales. Plus, the obvious advantages of cost and accuracy and the other perks.

 

I'm a bit confused about the different brands, configurations, styles, etc. of reloading equipment. I'm sure if this question were posed as "what kind of reloader should I buy?" the response would be pretty much the type you chose to invest in, since you thought it was best for you.

 

What I'm hoping to learn from you folks who have much experience at it, is what are the strengths and weaknesses of different brands and configurations of reloading equipment? What should I be looking for to ensure all of my needs/wants are met, both now, and hopefully, in the foreseeable future, as well?

 

The calibers that I would hope to be able to accomodate are:

 

.380

.38

9mm

.40SW

.45 ACP

.223

7.62x.39

.308

12 Gauge

 

I realize that the shotgun reloading may have to be handled by a seperate device, but I am not certain of that....

 

I do not really know the virtues of all the different configurations of presses and such, what the advantages of single-stage vs. two, three, or brazillian stage, altough I believe the multiple stage devices are quicker than the singles.

 

I also get the feeling that once you "buy-in" to a certain manufacturer, you are pretty much pimped by 'em after that, so I was hoping to do my homework and "buy once". I learned a long time ago buying woodworking tools, that it was a lot cheaper, and a lot less stressful to buy the best tool for the job the first time, rather than adding the cost of the inferior/inappropriate tool to the cost of the one you really needed in the first place.

 

I greatly appreciate any input from anybody who has any experiences in this ballpark, either good or bad, with any brands, types, configurations, etc.

 

If this post is redundant, I appologize. Dip my head in dog shit. :unsure:

 

Respectfully posted,

guido2 in Houston

Edited by guido2
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Ok, here goes... (bear with me on this, as this explanation will help you decide on the "stuff").

 

Reloading consists of several steps They are:

  • Depriming old brass
  • Lubing the case (for rifle cartridges mainly, so they don't get stuck in the sizing die), carbide dies allow straight walled pistol cartridges to be resized without any case lube (a big benefit in terms of time savings)
  • Sizing the case (bringing it back down to proper dimensions and restoring a clean shoulder after it's been fired, or if it's brand new), this usually includes straightening out the top of the case (ie restoring a nice circle of a case mouth if the brass was stepped on). Now rifle cartridges should accept a new bullet with ease - this is done with a sizing die
  • Inserting a new primer into the case - this is done either with the press's primer seating equipment, or by hand off the press with a hand primer
  • Inserting a powder charge into the case - this is either measured on a scale (empty primed case, tare weight, add charge, reweigh) or it's automatically fed into the case using a presses auto charge feature (these are generally by volume instead of weight - you need to know the volume of your powder per it's weight to figure out the proper charge) - if done on the press, it's done with a charging die (this may flare the case mouth in a pistol cartridge)
  • Placing a bullet atop the case - generally by hand, but some progressive presses will have an auto bullet seater. Boat tailed bullets are easier to load than spitzers (ie ones with flat bottoms). The boat tails tends to ride in the case on the upstroke of the press without having to keep your hand on them. They have better ballistic coeffiecients/less drag (in most cases) as well.
  • Seating the bullet into the case - with a seating die (adjustable to allow the bullet to be seated higher or lower in the case - sort of a screw adjustment)
  • Either crimping the bullet, or "straight walling" the case to remove the "flair" if any - with a crimp die (taper or roll), or as a function of the seater die
  • Cleaning off the case lube used, if any - by hand, with something such as windex
  • Firing the round, repeat... :super:

Most loads require three or four separate dies to get a complete round. Crimping a bullet is merely the act of pinching the case mouth to keep the bullet in one place under the recoil of the previous cartridges, hard use, etc. Revolver cartridges generally can use a roll crimp, but auto pistol cartridges need only to be "straightened" without a crimp. Auto pistol cartridges head space on the "mouth" of the brass whereas revolver cartridges "headspace" on the rim/back. A roll crimp creates free space that's not wanted on auto pistol cartridges, a mild taper crimp (if you think it necessary to crimp beyond just straightening out the flair) is fine for these. Typically revolver cartridges are three die setups (roll crimp and bullet seating are done as one step). Auto pistol cartridges usually have a fourth die (taper crimp) that really only removes the "flair" created before seating the bullet. Necked rifle rounds like the 223 and 308 headspace using the shoulder dimensions. Certain magnum cartridges are considered "belted" that is they have a ring near the bottom of the brass that might do the headspacing instead of the shoulder. A lot of the time magnum cartridges are belted to keep them from othewise fitting into non magnum chambers (kaboom).

 

You clean cases (generally) after shooting and before reloading (with spent primer still in them). If you're interested in cleaning up the primer pocket, then deprime before you clean the cases. For general practice work, I find that cleaning cases every other time works OK as long as the powder I'm using isn't especially dirty burning.

 

Visually inspect cases carefully for signs of weakening at the bottom of the cartridge (a few mm above the rim/rebated rim - will look like the cartridges is ripping itself in half in serious cases), and for "tears" and cuts on the necks. With saigas they will dent brass about mid way up the brass, but that's something you just need to inspect to your satisfaction before reloading. An ejection port buffer works great. I have one and my brass looks good everytime. As a result it can probably make it through more loadings because it isn't "worked" by the dies so much each time it's reloaded.

 

At most, you can expect about 8 loadings from rifle cartridges at the low end of pressures, but carefully inspect each time (I'm not responsible for your accidents...). It is important to also inspect some "setup" cartridges during each session. Use a dial caliber to inspect for overall length of completed cartridges, the relationship of the shoulder (if any) from the base of the case, and overall length of uncharged but sized cartridges (if this length is too long the brass has "stretched", then you need a case trimmer to cut down to the trim to length). Do not trim a case more than twice in its lifetime, once if it's a magnum case. Trimming effectively means less brass to hold the same charge, so once you've done it twice, the thickness of your brass is about as compromised as it can be.

 

All right, now let's get to equipment.

 

Presses - there are three types, single stage (with only one die), turret, where the dies rotate atop the press, and progressive, where the round rotates underneath the dies. This is the single most expensive piece of equipment, so know your options.

  • The single stage press requires removal and resetting/recalibrating of a die for each stage of the reloading process - this requires batch reloading for any efficiency - a batch of (50 or so) rounds go through each stage. The advantage of a single stage press is that they are generally very rugged, and if you load to precision tolerances they allow more uniformity due to the lack of moving parts with "play". Any more than 50 charged rounds lying around is a recepie for disaster, so understand these are best for low volume rifle rounds (and can be exceptionally good for this)
  • A turret press allows the dies to be adjusted once, and not removed and reinserted each time because they rotate atop the press and line themselves up for each stage of the process (generally on the downward stroke of the press). A single case is in the press, and the dies rotate above it (first sizing, second charging, third seating, fourth crimping). Once the four steps are complete, then you manually remove the round, and insert the next. A turret press allows the dies to remain "set up" for the process, and allows you to focus on each step of the process. You raise and lower the handle for each step in the process. You manually place the bullet atop the case, remove the loaded shell, and insert a new one (with old primer in it)
  • A progressive press has four rounds going through the process at the same time. THe first round may be on the last (crimp) die, the second on the third (seater) , third on second (charging), and fouth on first (sizing). A raising and lowering of the handle produces a complete round. These presses offer everything from auto case feeding, auto bullet placing, auto priming, pretty much a cadillac setup (if it doesn't go haywire, which many of them do either right away or eventually - some are exceptionally good however)

All signs would suggest the progressive press is the best. However, a good one (say a Dillon) would cost the entry level person a bundle (say $500 plus - probably more like $800 all told, after a case feeder, bullet feeder, primer feeder, etc). Some progressive presses are not so great with rifle cartridges. Progressives strengths are in high volume carbide die use for pistol round production. The single stage press may be the best to learn the process, but volume loading of your pistol cartridges is not realistic. That leaves the turret press, a bit of a compromise, but with nice features.

 

Most dies will work on most presses, but you may not be able to use all features of the press with certain dies (for example you may not be able to charge a round with one type of die vs the next - then you'd have to do that manually). So, you best off to stick with the same mfr of press and dies (as a first pass, but not necessarially as a general rule).

 

Now we get to recommendations. In this section I will only state stuff that's based on my personal experience, and if "I" were to do it (in some cases again)

 

My suggestion is to get a Lee classic cast turret press (only $75 or so - smokin deal). This is an inexpensive press, but it is very well built. I have 15000+ rounds through mine. It's not as fast as a progressive, but MUCH faster than a single stage press. I also recommend getting a Lyman reloading book (first). It's comprehensive and has both process and specific load information, a valuable resource. An advantage of the lee turret press is that you can buy a turret head for $8 and then setup your dies in it, and have a head for each caliber. Off comes the head, and your dies are on the shelf already set up for the next caliber. I'd also stick with Lee dies as well. Lee makes some crap presses, but their classic cast presses are the cats ass. The Lee autoprime is "ok", and takes a bit of getting used to, but their auto disc charger is top notch (especially for ball powders). For most pistol rounds you can tailor the auto charge to just what's best. For high/heavy grain rifle rounds (like 308), you can take two passes at the charge stage (for example two 20.7grain auto drops is 41.4 grains). See others' recommendations on MidwayUSA about the press, and any others you consider. This press can load 250 pistol rounds, and 125 rifle rounds per hour easy. A dillion progressive might at least double that rate, but it's at least triple the price. Check out Lee's site, they have video of the press in action.

 

Other stuff you'll need is a case tumbler (no real recommendations here - just be damn sure not to breathe in the media as you separate the clean brass from it at the end of the process - wear a mask or you will get alot of lead exposure) and "media" aka crushed walnut shell parrot cage litter - from walmart. The frankford arsenal spray on case lube is good stuff (just be sure to wipe off your case necks before putting them through the press, or you will get dented shoulders).

 

Prepare for addicition. Be very very safe. Store powder and primers in separate locations. Don't have more than 10000 primers in your house, or more than 48 lbs of powder (at the absolute most, despite how good the volume deals are on the net). Have a place just for reloading, don't have other tools and crap lying around that spot.

 

Everything you list except the rifle and shotty calibers can be loaded with carbide dies (meaning no lube) at a rate of 250 an hour once you're used to it. Rifle stuff requires lube and a bit more of a process. Your shotty rounds will/should require a separate press which I know absolutely nothing about.

 

I'll shut up now, hope some of it was helpful.

Edited by buckandaquarterquarterstaff
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I have four presses I use. A Dillon, a Redding Ultra Mag, a RCBS Ammomaster, and a MEC Grabber for shotshells. I use the Dillon for most reloading I do, including .45ACP for my Submachine-gun. It works great with most powders. It does have trouble with IMR powder when loading .22 calibers. The powder trends to bridge across the funnel. For these and for my .45-110 Black Powder loads I use the Redding. The Ammomaster is used for .50BMG.

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Ok, here goes... (bear with me on this, as this explanation will help you decide on the "stuff").

 

Reloading consists of several steps They are:

  • Depriming old brass
  • Lubing the case (for rifle cartridges mainly, so they don't get stuck in the sizing die), carbide dies allow straight walled pistol cartridges to be resized without any case lube (a big benefit in terms of time savings)
  • Sizing the case (bringing it back down to proper dimensions after it's been fired, or if it's brand new), this also may include "flaring" out the top of the case to accept a new bullet with ease - this is done with a sizing die
  • Inserting a new primer into the case - this is done either with the press's primer seating equipment, or by hand off the press with a hand primer
  • Inserting a powder charge into the case - this is either measured on a scale (empty primed case, tare weight, add charge, reweigh) or it's automatically fed into the case using a presses auto charge feature (these are generally by volume instead of weight - you need to know the volume of your powder per it's weight to figure out the proper charge) - if done on the press, it's done with a charging die (this may flare the case mouth)
  • Placing a bullet atop the case - generally by hand, but some progressive presses will have an auto bullet seater
  • Seating the bullet into the case - with a seating die (adjustable to allow the bullet to be seated higher or lower in the case - sort of a screw adjustment)
  • Either crimping the bullet, or "stright walling" the case to remove the "flair" if any - with a crimp die (taper or roll), or as a function of the seater die
  • Cleaning off the case lube used, if any - by hand, with something such as windex
  • Firing the round, repeat... :super:

Most loads require three or four separate dies to get a complete round.

 

All right, now let's get to equipment.

 

Presses - there are three types, single stage (with only one die), turret, where the dies rotate atop the press, and progressive, where the round rotates underneath the dies. This is the single most expensive piece of equipment, so know your options.

  • The single stage press requires removal and resetting/recalibrating of a die for each stage of the reloading process - this requires batch reloading for any efficiency - a batch of (50 or so) rounds go through each stage. The advantage of a single stage press is that they are generally very rugged, and if you load to precision tolerances they allow more uniformity due to the lack of moving parts with "play". Any more than 50 charged rounds lying around is a recepie for disaster, so understand these are best for low volume rifle rounds (and can be exceptionally good for this)
  • A turret press allows the dies to be adjusted once, and not removed and reinserted each time because they rotate atop the press and line themselves up for each stage of the process (generally on the downward stroke of the press). A single case is in the press, and the dies rotate above it (first sizing, second charging, third seating, fourth crimping). Once the four steps are complete, then you manually remove the round, and insert the next. A turret press allows the dies to remain "set up" for the process, and allows you to focus on each step of the process. You raise and lower the handle for each step in the process. You manually place the bullet atop the case, remove the loaded shell, and insert a new one (with old primer in it)
  • A progressive press has four rounds going through the process at the same time. THe first round may be on the last (crimp) die, the second on the third (seater) , third on second (charging), and fouth on first (sizing). A raising and lowering of the handle produces a complete round. These presses offer everything from auto case feeding, auto bullet placing, auto priming, pretty much a cadillac setup (if it doesn't go haywire, which many of them do either right away or eventually - some are exceptionally good however)

All signs would suggest the progressive press is the best. However, a good one (say a Dillon) would cost the entry level person a bundle (say $500 plus - probably more like $800 all told, after a case feeder, bullet feeder, primer feeder, etc). Some progressive presses are not so great with rifle cartridges. Progressives strengths are in high volume carbide die use for pistol round production. The single stage press may be the best to learn the process, but volume loading of your pistol cartridges is not realistic. That leaves the turret press, a bit of a compromise, but with nice features.

 

Most dies will work on most presses, but you may not be able to use all features of the press with certain dies (for example you may not be able to charge a round with one type of die vs the next - then you'd have to do that manually). So, you best off to stick with the same mfr of press and dies (as a first pass, but not necessarially as a general rule).

 

Now we get to recommendations. In this section I will only state stuff that's based on my personal experience, and if "I" were to do it (in some cases again)

 

My suggestion is to get a Lee classic cast turret press (only $75 or so - smokin deal). This is an inexpensive press, but it is very well built. I have 15000+ rounds through mine. It's not as fast as a progressive, but MUCH faster than a single stage press. I also recommend getting a Lyman reloading book (first). It's comprehensive and has both process and specific load information, a valuable resource. An advantage of the lee turret press is that you can buy a turret head for $8 and then setup your dies in it, and have a head for each caliber. Off comes the head, and your dies are on the shelf already set up for the next caliber. I'd also stick with Lee dies as well. Lee makes some crap presses, but their classic cast presses are the cats ass. The Lee autoprime is "ok", and takes a bit of getting used to, but their auto disc charger is top notch (especially for ball powders). For most pistol rounds you can tailor the auto charge to just what's best. For high/heavy grain rifle rounds (like 308), you can take two passes at the charge stage (for example two 20.7grain auto drops is 41.4 grains). See others' recommendations on MidwayUSA about the press, and any others you consider. This press can load 250 pistol rounds, and 125 rifle rounds per hour easy. A dillion progressive might at least double that rate, but it's at least triple the price. Check out Lee's site, they have video of the press in action.

 

Other stuff you'll need is a case tumbler (no real recommendations here - just be damn sure not to breathe in the media as you separate the clean brass from it at the end of the process - wear a mask or you will get alot of lead exposure) and "media" aka crushed walnut shell parrot cage litter - from walmart. The frankford arsenal spray on case lube is good stuff (just be sure to wipe off your case necks before putting them through the press, or you will get dented shoulders).

 

Prepare for addicition. Be very very safe. Store powder and primers in separate locations. Don't have more than 10000 primers in your house, or more than 48 lbs of powder (at the absolute most, despite how good the volume deals are on the net). Have a place just for reloading, don't have other tools and crap lying around that spot.

 

Everything you list except the rifle and shotty calibers can be loaded with carbide dies (meaning no lube) at a rate of 250 an hour once you're used to it. Rifle stuff requires lube and a bit more of a process. Your shotty rounds will/should require a separate press which I know absolutely nothing about.

 

I'll shut up now, hope some of it was helpful.

 

Hello, buckandaquarterquarterstaff

 

That was an awesome, educational, and valuable piece there, Sir!

I feel a lot bolder about perusing my trusty Midway catalog now.

 

I greatly appreciate you taking the time to share that information. You filled in a great many "blanks" for me.

 

Respectfully posted,

guido2 in Houston

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I have four presses I use. A Dillon, a Redding Ultra Mag, a RCBS Ammomaster, and a MEC Grabber for shotshells. I use the Dillon for most reloading I do, including .45ACP for my Submachine-gun. It works great with most powders. It does have trouble with IMR powder when loading .22 calibers. The powder trends to bridge across the funnel. For these and for my .45-110 Black Powder loads I use the Redding. The Ammomaster is used for .50BMG.

 

 

Hello, Banshee

Do you recommend the MEC Grabber for shot shell loading? Anything special to know about them prior to ordering one?

 

Thanks so much for the helpful info, Sir.

 

Respectfully posted,

guido2 in Houston

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I have four presses I use. A Dillon, a Redding Ultra Mag, a RCBS Ammomaster, and a MEC Grabber for shotshells. I use the Dillon for most reloading I do, including .45ACP for my Submachine-gun. It works great with most powders. It does have trouble with IMR powder when loading .22 calibers. The powder trends to bridge across the funnel. For these and for my .45-110 Black Powder loads I use the Redding. The Ammomaster is used for .50BMG.

 

 

Hello, Banshee

Do you recommend the MEC Grabber for shot shell loading? Anything special to know about them prior to ordering one?

 

Thanks so much for the helpful info, Sir.

 

Respectfully posted,

guido2 in Houston

 

 

yes sir I do recommend the MEC Grabber. I have loaded more Trap shell that I care to count on it. Nothing special to know about it, very simple to use.

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For a new guy I also recommend the Lee turret press. Also the Lyman manual but all the manuals are good, you will end up with a few of them. Study the manuals first. The process is simple and kind of fun. Ive been reloading since 1972. The progressives are good but its best to learn the basics with a turret or single stage first. Carbide dies are the way to go for the pistol dies. I use the Lee Factory Crimp die on almost all my different rounds and recommend them. For the semi auto rifles get the small base dies. From the rounds you listed, I would start off with the 45 ACP. Its easy to load for and components are available everywhere. Check the net for reloading forums. Good luck and if you have any questions just ask on this forum.

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I have never had anything made by LEE work worth a shit. You won't see any LEE stuff on my bench anymore, because it all breaks. Other than LEE, all the other Mfrs stuff works just fine.

 

Tony

 

Their new turret press has a steel (not aluminum) linkage, and is otherwise cast of steel. I would not recommend any lee presses other than their classic cast ones, and definately not any of their progressives. The classic cast turret press is the exception for lee, and not the norm. After 7000 rounds I had an depriming pin pull out due to a piece of military 308 brass that had an undersized flashhole. They replaced it for free, and I bought two extras for all of six bucks.

 

My brother and I both have the lee turret press, and he has had at least two others. My brother in law and father have been satisfied with redding and lymann stuff. We're pretty happy with the cast lee press, and between the two of us we have at least 25000 rounds through them. If it falls apart at 30000 rounds, I'll spend another $75 bucks to replace it and still be a couple hundred bucks ahead of most of the other manufacturer's offerings.

 

Now most of my loading is pistol stuff, and that's not as hard on the press. But it shows no signs of wear.

Edited by buckandaquarterquarterstaff
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I have never had anything made by LEE work worth a shit. You won't see any LEE stuff on my bench anymore, because it all breaks. Other than LEE, all the other Mfrs stuff works just fine.

 

Tony

 

 

same here. I havn't had any luck with Lee.

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very hand thread.....tagging for later.

 

intersting comments on Lee presses....i live about 15 miles from them, heard both good and bad, mostly though that you should stick with the all steel stuff and you are ok.

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