Saiga 12 Conversion (and others)

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Is it legal for me to buy a Saiga from a fellow member, or even new from the store, with the intention of converting it to it's real intended form and turning around and selling it to fund another fun project? Who's to say what my intentions are when buying a gun or whether or not they might change when I want to buy a different one and need the cash? Truth is I just like seeing what I can create from a basic ugly ass Saiga. I love doing these conversions and do a very fine job of it, if I may say so myself. Only trouble is I've converted about all mine already and only have 6 left that I want to hang onto (one of each caliber and guage). I do have some others I have been saving for an unwanted future where the PG conversions might not be allowed by our fucked up government and stupid liberal gun laws.

 

I just like doing it for a hobby and could never make a living off it like Tony does. I do however, do awesome work and I know there are a lot of people out there right now wanting to buy a converted Saiga and some of the big guys like Tromix are backlogged to death with work and not taking orders. Is there some way a hobbiest who does not have an FFL can buy and sell guns to feed his habit without getting into trouble for it? I don't want that at all, I just want to build some more guns and I'm running out of ideas and guns to build on.

 

I do know it's legal for someone who wants help with their gun to take it to someone else's house and be there with them while they do any work to it.

 

What if Joe Blow from out of state wants to have his gun converted by someone else but does not want to wait for the long list of people ahead of him in line at the big well known builders' places, and the long turnaround time they have due to their huge workload? Wouldn't it be perfectly legal for them to sell me their gun, and me then build it into a sweet converted AK like it's meant to be? After that they could choose to buy it back from me at the going rate for an already converted, custom designed gun or I could choose to keep it or sell it to someone else in order to fund another fun build.

Just like guys who love to build custom hotrods, I could buy and old one, fix it up, and resell it to keep moving up the ladder til I get that Cobra I want.

Is there some kind of minimum number of guns one can buy and resell within a given amount of time?

 

Any input, postive or negative, on this subject would be greatly appreciated. I DO NOT want to do anything illegal and risk losing my treasured firearms OR my freedom to use them. Just checking out my options here...

[banshee 69]

It is possible that the ATF will see you as dealing without a license. They have no sense of humor The ATF does not care if you sell one or two of your personal firearms, but if you start buying and reselling them they may come down on you. How many do you have to sell to be a dealer? There is no clear cut answer on that. As far as working on them, A gunsmith has to have a FFL to repair other peoples firearms. I would be very careful. Have you thought about getting a FFL? Then you can buy sell and work on them all you want. I have had a FFL and gunsmithing for 20 years now.

 

"Maneo Qualis Manebam"

Edited May 15, 2007 by Banshee

[Garys4598 1,065]

Dude, I agree with Banshee (as much as it pains me.... after his snide remarks in the "Yankee test" thread... ), go get yourself a FFL.

[trukreltrog 8]

Dude, I agree with Banshee (as much as it pains me.... after his snide remarks in the "Yankee test" thread... ), go get yourself a FFL.

 

And after you get one, you need to crank out a couple of those AKS-12's. That is a sweet little 12 guage.

[kmoore 3]

Cobra,

 

I've never heard of them publishing a number of transactions. Had a similar conversation with a C&R holder. He told me that he could buy a "few" firearms and sell them to me immediately, but that the more frequent, the less acceptable in the eyes of the law.

 

So, I don't think there is official guidance, but what you have to imagine is what it looks like to a Jury/Judge. 2 or 3 a month ... maybe (maybe not). But if you are working 10 a month for a year.....

 

This world needs more folks passionate about careful gunsmithing. I'd love to see you step in, but do it carefully. Maybe test the concept for a month or two, then jump in and get papered?

 

You say "and some of the big guys like Tromix are backlogged to death" and I hear ... there is still room to grow in this market, a niche to step into.

 

Maybe I'll see you this Saturday? but I'm very afraid of you seeing my Saiga .... it's VERY ugly and definitely a "function over form" disciple .... but it's running well now!

 

-K

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Thanks for your insight Banshee and kmoore. I kind of figured I'm not the only one with these same questions, just nobody seems to want to talk about it. Hell this thread had over thirty views I think before anyone said anything. I can think of no better thinktank of people to pose such a question to. If the ATF has a problem with people who just want to enjoy a hobby like amateur gunsmithing then they do need to publish some definite guidelines about just what is and what isn't acceptable.

As for those that say "just go get yourself an FFL" ...ummm dudes it's not as easy as all that. It takes a lot besides just gunsmithing talent.

[Garys4598 1,065]

As for those that say "just go get yourself an FFL" ...ummm dudes it's not as easy as all that. It takes a lot besides just gunsmithing talent.

 

I'm sure it ISN'T easy whatsoever.... In fact, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn that in order to obtain a FFL you have to fork-over your left kidney or testicle or something (j/k).

 

I find it surprising though that no one with a FFL has posted you a reply yet; that not a single forum member has a FFL.... which of course isn't true. Tony Rumore of course does (...."duh!" to himself).

 

Anyway, I still say you should look into obtaining a FFL. You CLEARLY have a passion and joy toward this sort of endeavor. So why not take it to the next step Dude?

 

"Nothing worth having or pursuing.... is typically easy to obtain."

 

Don't be a pussy! Go get one.

Edited May 15, 2007 by Gary

[Garys4598 1,065]

Cobra is awesome and he is a god.

 

I'm just a few fries short of a happy meal.

 

Oh yeah.... and I experiences moments of "fucktardedness" as well!

 

 

 

(Sheesh! I crack myself up.... at his expense.)

Edited May 15, 2007 by Gary

[banshee 69]

when I got my FFL it was easy, just send the ATF $30 and an application and they would send you a FFL. I'm sure it is not all that hard today. Call the ATF and see. The worse thing thay can say is NO

Gary, no malice was intended. I had family who fought on the other side too. I was just being silly.

 

"Maneo Qualis Manebam"

[RI_shotgunner 0]

As for those that say "just go get yourself an FFL" ...ummm dudes it's not as easy as all that. It takes a lot besides just gunsmithing talent.

 

I'm sure it ISN'T easy whatsoever.... In fact, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn that in order to obtain a FFL you have to fork-over your left kidney or testicle or something (j/k).

 

I find it surprising though that no one with a FFL has posted you a reply yet; that not a single forum member has a FFL.... which of course isn't true. Tony Rumore of course does (...."duh!" to himself).

 

Anyway, I still say you should look into obtaining a FFL. You CLEARLY have a passion and joy toward this sort of endeavor. So why not take it to the next step Dude?

 

"Nothing worth having or pursuing.... is typically easy to obtain."

 

Don't be a pussy! Go get one.

I have an ffl and it is a long process( took about 6 months) but it varies by state what is required of you. Some states allow you to work (gunsmithing) and sell out of your home, others require you to have a retail store. Sometimes the city or town you live in will require a license of their own. But if you are intersted you can go to the ATF website and either download the application or request that one be mailed to you. If you have any other questions I'll answer them top the best of my knowledge

[TonyRumore 1,332]

The Form 7 is not available for downloading. You have to get a hard copy. BATFE Licensing is in Atlanta. 866 662-2750

 

Tony

[shaneman153a 39]

I just sent off for a Form 7, I'm almost sure that zoning or other red tape is not going to allow me to get one. Any Texas FFL holders out there who can give me a heads-up on some state-wide rules that make it tough? Or is it more a county/city thing that will burn ya'?

 

Shane

[Garys4598 1,065]

Gary, no malice was intended. I had family who fought on the other side too. I was just being silly.

 

"Maneo Qualis Manebam"

 

Dude, absolutely!

 

Like, in my own mind.... I invented the concept of being silly!

 

Oh crap.... or was that "sarcasm"????

 

I can never remember.

 

[mccumber1916 1]

in oregon if you own too many guns they will MAKE you get ffl...as told by my gun nut uncle whom iv'e purchased guns for to avoid said perdicament

 

but i don't see why i can't buy the 223 that i want and ship it to you and commission you to convert it...

that'd be no different than taking it to a local gunsmith

 

hell i wanted to ask if you'd do it for me the other day when i pm'd you...

i like the local shop you told me about but it would be convenient for you to buy and resale and keep a bill of sale untill they make you get FFL

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Thanks again guys. Tony thank you for that number. I'll try actually talking to them and see what they have to say. Although from all I've ever heard you get yesmen on the phone when you ask for anything...or even worse nomen...lol.

I would love to open up a shop and the market is there if the guns keep coming in.

My home has a basement with a separate door, bathroom, all that...That's where my workshop is. I'm wondering if it has to be a completely detached building to qualify as a "storefront". I've always heard that they tend to frown on in house gunsmithing. I think the term is "kitchen table gunsmiths"?

 

Keep the replies coming. I know there are more FFLs on our site and would like to hear any concerns or problems that come up usually.

 

Gary= Fucktarrd..LOL! You crack me up to bro!

[mccumber1916 1]

Thanks again guys. Tony thank you for that number. I'll try actually talking to them and see what they have to say. Although from all I've ever heard you get yesmen on the phone when you ask for anything...or even worse nomen...lol.

I would love to open up a shop and the market is there if the guns keep coming in.

My home has a basement with a separate door, bathroom, all that...That's where my workshop is. I'm wondering if it has to be a completely detached building to qualify as a "storefront". I've always heard that they tend to frown on in house gunsmithing. I think the term is "kitchen table gunsmiths"?

 

Keep the replies coming. I know there are more FFLs on our site and would like to hear any concerns or problems that come up usually.

 

Gary= Fucktarrd..LOL! You crack me up to bro!

 

good point... the gunsmith i used had separrated garage... put up a shed out back... what they don't know...

[banshee 69]

I work out of my basement. I did have to get rezoned for a business.You do have to meet the requirements of the location where you live

"Maneo Qualis Manebam"

Edited May 16, 2007 by Banshee

[mccumber1916 1]

I work out of my basement. I did have to get rezoned for a business.You do have to meet the requirements of the location where you live

"Maneo Qualis Manebam"

 

leave it to a local gov to squeeze more out of yer wallet

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

in oregon if you own too many guns they will MAKE you get ffl...as told by my gun nut uncle whom iv'e purchased guns for to avoid said perdicament

 

but i don't see why i can't buy the 223 that i want and ship it to you and commission you to convert it...

that'd be no different than taking it to a local gunsmith

 

hell i wanted to ask if you'd do it for me the other day when i pm'd you...

i like the local shop you told me about but it would be convenient for you to buy and resale and keep a bill of sale untill they make you get FFL

One reason that won't work is because without an FFL I cannot take shipment of any guns to my home except from a licensed manufacturer. I have never even attempted to do that and would not dare. That's why I was saying if I bought a stock gun from someone and it was actually transferred into MY name, I should be able to do whatever I want with it as long as I comply by all laws. To be sure I'm not the only one who has ever had this question. If I bought the gun locally it should make no difference right?

 

 

BATF guys, I know you are reading this too. Damn I wish someone who is actually an employed BATF agent would join our forum and talk openly with us about confusing issues such as these. It would help greatly to educate the public on just exactly what is and is not cool in the eyes of the law.

I, like many others, am just a regular tax paying CITIZEN (getting more and more rare these days) and want to know the right way to stay within the boundries of the laws that you as an organization must agree, are rediculously hard to figure out sometimes. On this and other gun forums, especially ones devoted to "assault weapon" style firearms, one of the MAIN things we do is try and help everyone stay on the right side of the laws and know what is and is not compliant with the rules that YOU make or are expected to inforce.

[mccumber1916 1]

bummer to here that

 

that is a brilliant idea... they SHOULD be here to represent themselves

[RI_shotgunner 0]

Thanks again guys. Tony thank you for that number. I'll try actually talking to them and see what they have to say. Although from all I've ever heard you get yesmen on the phone when you ask for anything...or even worse nomen...lol.

I would love to open up a shop and the market is there if the guns keep coming in.

My home has a basement with a separate door, bathroom, all that...That's where my workshop is. I'm wondering if it has to be a completely detached building to qualify as a "storefront". I've always heard that they tend to frown on in house gunsmithing. I think the term is "kitchen table gunsmiths"?

 

Keep the replies coming. I know there are more FFLs on our site and would like to hear any concerns or problems that come up usually.

 

Gary= Fucktarrd..LOL! You crack me up to bro!

I beleive if it has a seperate entrance you should be able to call it your "store front" but that still depends on the town or county you live in. I knew a guy who had it set up similiar to what you described and it was fine.

[RDSWriter 5]

Cobra, good luck with your efforts. We need all the respectable people we can get involved in guns. I'll give you the lowdown on my experience. First, I am not an FFL holder, but went down the road until I realized that I will not get an FFL approved by the ATF.

 

The Clinton Admin made it defacto policy to try to eliminate home FFLs. Now the ATF requires that you be compliant with all local zoning and licensing. Case in point, my home is zoned ONLY residential and my city will not issue me a zoning variance nor a license for gunsmithing. So, I will not get one approved. The Bush Admin has not weighed in on this issue, so policy has not changed... and....

- most current FFL business could care less whether or not more FFLs are approved because it will mean more competition;

- most gun owners don't care because they can order over the internet to a local FFL and transfer it cheaper than paying the FFL license;

- the NRA is not pushing for change because most dealers, gunowners and political activists don't care or have more important issues to address; and

- politicians don't care because most of the gun community doesn't care.

 

FYI - it is illegal for you to gunsmith on other people's firearms without a license. The only exception is if they are present for the ENTIRE time while the two of you work on it because it is never left in your possession. Just like Class3 work, as long as I am present during the entire gunsmith time, I do not need to transfer it to the SOT via a Form 5. Now to your inquiry. Legally, I think you're in the clear as long as you and your customers buy and sell ONLY from dealers. All firearms will be papered via a 4473. BUT the individual will need to transfer to your dealer, then your dealer to you, then you to his dealer and then papered back to him. This is how people buy and sell Class3 stuff all the time out of state. If you go down this road, I would never, ever sell FTF. Also, this is potentially expensive given dealer fees and shipping.

 

MY RECOMMENDATION - Finda very good friend with and FFL, or if you already have one... become an employee of theirs. You could do the work on their premises... and I **think** with their permission you can even work on at your place because you are an authorized employee and as such can transport firearms on their behalf. HEY PEOPLE WITH FFLs TELL ME IF THIS IS THE CASE as it's been a loooonnnnggg time since I was trying to get an FFL.

Edited May 16, 2007 by RDSWriter

[73cj5 1]

If you were buying them thru a ffl and then working on them and then reselling them to another ff for a customer I think they might try and say manufacturing, but a good lawer can make that walk. Then they would come after you for not reporting earned income. Whatever the ATF says, get it in writing or get a good laywer..................

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Hmmm lots of stuff to think about...

Damn, no wonder you don't see a lot of people converting Saigas for others. First I will have to inquire with the sherrif's office about on premises gunsmithing approvals in my area and also the town on zoning restrictions. Then I guess I'll have to cut my hair and take down the Slayer posters and nekkid women all over the shop...NOT! ...lol

 

I do know a man in town who has a gun shop in his garage out back. He's been there for years though (PRE Klinton) so some of the laws and restrictions may be different now who knows...

[Bill 0]

Hi Cobra- I say just make sure you read ALL THE REGS if you decide to get a FFL, I have heard horror stories about screwed up inspections being done at any and all hours un announced,RUDE treatment, and a general 'the atf is on your butt like a pimple and a hemmoroid. they can make your life miserable,at least out here in the west..

 

Just my 2 cents, would not want anything to happen to you,go wrong,etc.