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:blues: I have never been in combat urban or otherwise. I do know a lot about firearms and am an avid reader of military and combat history. I have watched a lot of Military Channel shows on Iraq lately and have come to some conclusions.

 

It seems that the M4 Carbine and Saw weapons now in use are not ideal for the CQB in places like Ramadi and other cities with narrow streets and lots of parapet walls. What is nice is that they use the same ammo and the ammo is light weight.

 

I am a believer in using the right tool for the job not one tool for all jobs. Consequently, I think that different firearms are needed in that environment. I think that three different guns make sense in these firefights. A semi-auto .308 rifle with AP projectiles is needed to punch through those parapet walls and flush out insurgents. Sub guns are needed with a butt load of ammo to suppress enemy fire for troop movement and Saiga 12s are needed for close range street fighting, door breaching and room clearance.

 

I know, three kinds of ammo, and .308 and 12 ga. are heavy.

 

I await the replies.

 

32ndGeorgia

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Subguns are not flat shooting enough to be usefull at longer ranges and they have ammo that is heavy. They already have some Saiga AOWs for door breaching. A 25-50m max weapon like a Saiga is not going to be a good general purpose weapon with its limited mag capacity and slower reloads and the few mags you can carry. I think your idea is all out of whack. Shotguns have no place on the modern battlefield outside of door breaching. As soon as you deploy shotguns as the primary weapon the bad guys will show up with body armor. Then you are screwed. Same goes for the subguns that wont punch through soft body armor. .308 with AP rounds sounds like a great idea but it has even worse terminal preformance on the bad guys than our 5.56 ammo.

Edited by DevL
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I do not know about that- I have yet to find a volunteer to don a 'vest even with a trauma plate and be willing to take a 3" Brenneke slug in the chest -or any other area of the vest.......Yes the shotgun has its limits but do not knock it out as just for door breaching...

 

And here is a short vid of a FA S12 SBS emtying an 8 rd mag..now if it has 00 buck in it that is some serious short range firepower..if they would be slugs....'nough said. :devil: DAMMIT, file is too big-1MB I will try to find the link or email if you want it...

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Good idea but I see some problems. .308 is a great range round with excellent penetration but that leads to overpenetration especially in urban areas where a .308 could go through many walls and create many unwanted casualties among friendlies or civilians. Subguns are a bit outdated now that we have light assault carbines that basically fill the same role while also serving as a main battle rifle. Personally, I would love a saiga in urban combat but the role of the shotgun in modern warfare is as a breaching or stand-off weapon and the US army is currently using two models (that I know of) of shotgun underslung on an M16. The Remington MCS "Masterkey" is pump action and the new XM-26 is a way cool ultra compact box fed semi-auto shottie. They are both considered breaching tools and not anti-personnel weapons because I THINK (thats stressed cause I don't want people yelling at me if I'm wrong) that canister rounds fired from small arms are against the Geneva covention. I could be misinformed on that last part but its my understanding that shotgun-type weapons are not approved for international warfare. Now if some enemy combatant just happened to wander in front of your muzzle while you had your hand on the shotgun trigger- well...I guess it would be a confirmed kill with an "entry tool". :smoke: Just my two cents.

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I was in Ramadi. It was mostly hit and run. If they stayed in one place long enough for you to try and flush them out chances are you were being set up. They were smart enough to not engage us in a stand up fight. The ones that weren't so smart ended up dead or zip tied with black bags over their heads. I actually looked forward to gunfights because it meant we had a target.

 

The M4, although not ideal, can be used in urban combat effectively. The weapon has to be handled differently and the tactics are much much more aggressive. It's not really a question of the right tool for the job - although that helps, but the right tactic for the situation. You don't bother trying to suppress fire from a building if you have an AT4 or an M203 handy. But if there is even a slight chance that civilians are inside the building then you had no choice but to do it the hard way. Clear each room and pray that you're up to the task of instantly identifying friend or foe under duress.

 

These days it looks like the Army and Marine Corps are fielding the MK11 for their DM's so at least they will have something with a bit more punch to it at the squad level.

 

So in short, my personal (and I guess professional) opinion is that the tools we have now are adequate but not ideal. Carrying multiple weapons and ammo is cumbersome and unrealistic. Believe me, I carried an M1014, an M4, and M9 during one patrol. Never again. From that point on I either carried the shotgun and pistol or the rifle and pistol. Urban combat really requires a hyper-aggressive mindset but you better not turn it on unless you have an identifiable target.

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Sorry, I dropped into mil-spec mode there for a second.

 

Here are some terms from my last post:

M203 = grenade launcher (typically slung underneath an M4 or M16)

AT4 = anti-tank weapon, can be used against hardened structures to good effect

MK11 = .308 weapon based on AR platform

DM = designated marksmen (not snipers)

M1014 = Joint Service Combat Shotgun

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No Prob with me Gunny I understood the terminology-- :super:

 

Question- IF I am wrong tell me, but the M1014 is the Benelli I think and I have heard of some issues with them in the field. If the shottie is the Berreta shottie-same issue regarding parts wear,reliability/serviceability in the field. I believe this came out a couple weeks ago(?)

 

Yes you may have to be careful about your ratio of 'door breaching toll kills' vs 'regular kills' -cannot let them get too high-'they were standing RIGHT BEHIND THE DOOR' on ly works for so long.. :eek::killer::killer::ded::ded::lolol::super:

 

I think a 17 " barreled FN Paratrooper rifle would be a great choice-maybe I am biased since I have 2 of them built from kits and US receivers. TES the 30 rounders get long BUT....... :super::super::super:

 

And BTW- Thanks for the job you have to do and making it back in one piece and alive, I would toss you a mag any day bud!! :super:

 

My friends cousin is in the Welsh Army and is signed up for life-he is on his 6-7th tour in Afghanistan....

Another friend may have to go on his 6th Iraq tour.....

 

Time to let them fight it out or make a big Glass bowl in the desert....

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Ideal weapons for urban fighting quality AK-47, RPK, RPG 7,

 

AK is accurate especially the Vepr II

RPK is deadly because it is a Vepr

RPG every one knows what it cand do

Dragonov sniper rifle

 

The key is to properly employ these weapons effectively something that seems to be beyond the ablilities of our enemies thank God.

 

I used my Saiga 7.62x39 in a 3 gun match, a few months ago, it shot very well, I must say that I was supprised at how well I hit the targets all day, my score was not so hot but that was because I did not trust the gun and shot a bit slow, but by the end of the match I gained complete confidence in the weapon.

 

I disagree that the Saiga 12 would not be an effective short range weapon, it is not a machinegun, but can be employeed if proper tactics are developed. Of course it is not an assault rifle but it it is far superior to any other combat shotgun.

 

This is just my humble opinion feel free to differ with me. I am not putting any one down execpt the enemy.

Edited by topmaul
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Ideal weapons for urban fighting quality AK-47, RPK, RPG 7,

 

AK is accurate especially the Vepr II

RPK is deadly because it is a Vepr

RPG every one knows what it cand do

Dragonov sniper rifle

 

The key is to properly employ these weapons effectively something that seems to be beyond the ablilities of our enemies thank God.

 

I used my Saiga 7.62x39 in a 3 gun match, a few months ago, it shot very well, I must say that I was supprised at how well I hit the targets all day, my score was not so hot but that was because I did not trust the gun and shot a bit slow, but by the end of the match I gained complete confidence in the weapon.

 

I disagree that the Saiga 12 would not be an effective short range weapon, it is not a machinegun, but can be employeed if proper tactics are developed. Of course it is not an assault rifle but it it is far superior to any other combat shotgun.

 

This is just my humble opinion feel free to differ with me. I am not putting any one down execpt the enemy.

I'm thinking a .50 BMG conversion on my S12 would work. Then it would be a rifle and I could have a 16" barrel on it. Or better yet, Barret should make an 11" commando model of there semi auto .50.

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I do not know about that- I have yet to find a volunteer to don a 'vest even with a trauma plate and be willing to take a 3" Brenneke slug in the chest -or any other area of the vest.......Yes the shotgun has its limits but do not knock it out as just for door breaching...

 

And here is a short vid of a FA S12 SBS emtying an 8 rd mag..now if it has 00 buck in it that is some serious short range firepower..if they would be slugs....'nough said. :devil: DAMMIT, file is too big-1MB I will try to find the link or email if you want it...

 

Just FYI: Yes, it has been proven that a 12 gauge slug impacting a trauma plate is lethal. While there will be no penetration of the vest itself, the extreme transfer of energy effectively disrupts the heart rhythm putting the wearer into atrial fibrillation leading to cardiac arrest. ie: It gives you a heart attack.

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This is why I own a lot of different weapons. If I know what I have to do, I can pick the best weapon/s for the job but chances are I wont have all these weapons when I need them. I'll agree carrying more than one long gun is a pain but they are my guns so I dont have to worry about an article 15 if I decide to dump a weapon and come back for it later.

 

I like my M4 the lighter ammo and firepower of C-mags is an advantage but the ammunition lacks the stopping power of bigger rounds.

 

My AR10 will get the job done. It also has the ability to penitrate barriers people may use for cover better than the 5.56mm. AR10 .308 C-mags are on the way so the only disadvantage to the AR10 soon is a little extra weight. Im not road marching with it so I dont mind more weight for the .308

 

anything with a .4 or bigger in a glock or XD handgun with DPX ammunition.

 

Tromix saiga12 shotguns, obviously the best choice for CQ, fuck a tube fed shotgun.

 

Like people have said over penitration or missing the target is an issue but that go's for all ammunition. In a modern city where walls are two sheets of drywall with insulation in between. Even if the round hits the 2x4 frame of the wall a .22LR will penitrate it. The chances are, unless your using door breaching round or some other frangable ammunition for defense it'll go through a wall and still have the potental to kill someone on the other side.

Edited by mike123456
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Ideal weapons for urban fighting quality AK-47, RPK, RPG 7,

 

AK is accurate especially the Vepr II

RPK is deadly because it is a Vepr

RPG every one knows what it cand do

Dragonov sniper rifle

 

 

The RPG is not a good weapon if you ask me. The RPG rocket boosters are made of cardboard, they swell and crack if they get wet and are useless. Its a cone shape charge so it'll penitrate over 11in of armor but so will anything else. It's easily defeated with slat armor, chain link fence,or anything that'll make it go off before contacting the main armor of a vehicle. The rockets are so fucking long with the booster screwed onto the bottom and big you cant carry meny. The back blast would make it impossable to safely fire from inside a building. You'll probably injure yourself. The AT4 sucks also because you only have one shot and cant reload the tube. These are cone shape charge anti-armor weapons not designed for fragmentation/anti-personnel

 

The ranger and SF MAAWS reloadable launcher is much better but it weighs 22lbs so it'll be a bitch to carry arround.

 

They do make APERS chinese bounding frag rockets the OG-7 and others. I have seen a lot of the bounding frag rockets but havent had one shot at me yet.

Edited by mike123456
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One weapon platform that would probab;y be effective would be the good old CArl Gustave 84mmm recoilless cannon,has different loads available from he,ap,anti personel,etc...but not sure if it is still supported and used by any countries....

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What I think would be very useful (and to my knowledge is not in use anywhere) are thermobaric grenades. The Russians had working models which you could probably find with a web search. A thermobaric grenade is a grenade (either hand-grenade or 38/40mm) with a plastic shell designed to minimize shrapnel and lethal range. Kind of like a flashbang on steroids. It kills by momentarily increasing local air pressure to the point where the sudden shift is lethal. Kills by pressure, not fragments. The idea is to create a"short-action" grenade which can be used room-to-room and in close range encounters where a regular grenade cannot be used. A person wearing the proper protective gear (goggles/ear protection) could use these VERY close to his own person and not have to worry about frags coming through the walls. I think these would be great for clearing structures and any enclosed space.

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It kills by momentarily increasing local air pressure to the point where the sudden shift is lethal. Kills by pressure, not fragments.

 

I think there are already thermobaric rounds available for the M203 but I've never seen them issued out. But thermobaric rounds create a ball of flame whereas the effects you are describing seem more like overpressure kills from an HE round. When an HE round detonates it creates a pressure wave that has a positive and negative phase. The positive phase pushes everything out of the way and can exert atmospheric pressure in tons per square inch. This positive phase then creates a vacuum at the point of detonation and the surrounding air pushes back towards it to fill it causing the negative phase.

 

So what happens is if you are close enough and happen to survive the explosion and shrapnel then the air gets sucked out of your lungs, flattening them and causing respiratory failure.

 

This type of explosion MIGHT be possible with a 40mm round in an enclosed and very hardened structure (you'd have to shoot it through a window or similar opening) but I am really only familiar with the theory from my days of calling in artillery.

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My only thought would be something that was of a caliber that everyone else was using. For example, if I chose my FN PS-90 I would have a hard time replenishing my 5.7x28 ammo supply from dead opponents.

 

 

if in a military situation I agree with the FN, but would go with the even more compact P90 ( at least 4" shorter.) & of course a shit load of 50rd clips!

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Let's talk about the P-90 for a few minutes, how much stopping power does it have at say 100 yards with enemy using a minimum flack jacket or better yet fighting in the dead of winter and the enemy wearing heavy clothing. I feel that the weapon would be insufficent for anything but close quarters fighting.

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Let's talk about the P-90 for a few minutes, how much stopping power does it have at say 100 yards with enemy using a minimum flack jacket or better yet fighting in the dead of winter and the enemy wearing heavy clothing. I feel that the weapon would be insufficent for anything but close quarters fighting.

 

It is insufficient for even that.A local SWAT officer shot a guy 28 times with one at close range and it didn't put him down.It bought them enough time so another officer could deploy his .40 handgun and drop the guy.

 

Something like this would be awesome;

762krifle_1.jpg

 

Compact,7.62X51 I just can't find anything not to like about it. :devil:

 

Read about the Leonidas here

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Let's talk about the P-90 for a few minutes, how much stopping power does it have at say 100 yards with enemy using a minimum flack jacket or better yet fighting in the dead of winter and the enemy wearing heavy clothing. I feel that the weapon would be insufficent for anything but close quarters fighting.

 

It is insufficient for even that.A local SWAT officer shot a guy 28 times with one at close range and it didn't put him down.It bought them enough time so another officer could deploy his .40 handgun and drop the guy.

 

Something like this would be awesome;

762krifle_1.jpg

 

Compact,7.62X51 I just can't find anything not to like about it. :devil:

 

Read about the Leonidas here

Some disagree. http://fivesevenforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=480

Others agree. Personal decision based on intended use. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,216898,00.html shows Florida police shooting a man 68 tiomes to put him down. It's all about shot placement. JMO

1911

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I was thinking about having a 11.5 in ar10 barrel made a while back, I cant get the form1 for it yet though.

 

When people are shooting at eachother I have seen them do a lot of stupid shit, like ducking down into the turret and holding down the butterfly firing a whole 100rd can of .50cal API while not even looking. There are some people who would laugh at that but you havent had bullets ricochet off the gunners shield and turret armor your standing in.

 

A lot of the time people are just trying to score a hit not shooting at anything specific, so chose your ammunition wisely, dont be cheap and not get what you know is better because of price.

Edited by mike123456
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Some disagree. http://fivesevenforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=480

Others agree. Personal decision based on intended use. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,216898,00.html shows Florida police shooting a man 68 tiomes to put him down. It's all about shot placement. JMO

1911

 

I can't view the link at that forum since I'm not a member.

 

Regardless,I have a friend on SWAT and have spoken to him about this incident(we have a full time SWAT here so they all know each other well)he told me first hand that most of the shots were placed in the abdomen and torso with a few in the face.While I have never shot anyone that is just unacceptable to me.

 

This was during a undercover drug bust where the dealer found out(officers didn't know at the time)that he had been dealing to an undercover officer and decided he was going to shoot said officer.What he didn't know was they had the area staked out and a SWAT officer was not too far away around a corner.

 

Either way,28 rounds most of which are body shots with a few to the face and the guy didn't go down(apparently he was screaming like mad) just doesn't do it for me or them.Most of them hate the guns and are switching back to the MP5.

 

I actually like the P90/PS90 I just wouldn't want to use one to defend my life with unless I had to.

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I was thinking about having a 11.5 in ar10 barrel made a while back, I cant get the form1 for it yet though.

 

You could go with a Vector V51 pistol and add a collapsible stock. Barrel length is similar.

 

IMG_8527_resize.jpg

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