Jump to content

Recommended Posts

okay i got a 7.62x39 saiga which i know is a powerfull rifle allready, but i herd it's not much powerfull to kill a bear or even a deer,i was thinking of getting the .308 or the saiga 12 , which is better .308 or saiga 12 regarding stoping power with one shot??? thank you

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this is going to depend on what kind of range we are talking about, but I'm not sure that you would want to use shotty slugs on a bear. Maybe bronze but surely not lead? I guess it would be more than adequate for a small bear, but on a large bear I would be concerned about penetration.

 

Well, I'm no expert, but for bear I would say .308 over 12 GA

 

BTW, x39 should be fine for deer, just use proper soft point slugs.

Link to post
Share on other sites
You have asked this question twice today: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=17540&hl=,so I guess you really want a answer. :D

 

Clarify, What kind of bear are we talking about here, and are we talking hunting or defense?

 

 

well me and my son and wife are going camping , i have no plans of killing a bear , but i've seen the results of a bear attack, i was planing just to bring my hi point rifle , but i feel it's just gonna anger the bear much more, my saiga is a little bit powerfull gun than my 9mm but after reading a couple of thread i have doubt, i'm getting another rifle anyway maybe in two weeks i like the saiga 12 or the .308 , and i'm talking bought a brown bear...

Edited by johnny79
Link to post
Share on other sites

I've looked into this a bit more for you. It would seem that 12 ga is sometimes used to hunt bear, but is usually used as more of a backup defensive weapon against wounded or attacking bears.

 

So, for defense against a Bruin, 12 ga is recomended over a .308, for hunting, a flatter trajectory high power rifle like .308 or 30-06 is prefered. Also, as an interesting side note, some guys do use 30-30 for black bear, so x39 should be sufficient to hunt them, don't know about Grizzleys though. For hunting the question is almost whats the smallest cartridge I can use and still get a quick, humane kill, and for defense the Q becomes whats gonna knock this monster down ASAP.

 

That x39 is much more powerful than the 9mm, so if you have to choose between them, go Saiga x39.

Edited by ArcFault
Link to post
Share on other sites
I've looked into this a bit more for you. It would seem that 12 ga is sometimes used to hunt bear, but is usually used as more of a backup defensive weapon against wounded or attacking bears.

 

So, for defense against a Bruin, 12 ga is recomended over a .308, for hunting, a flatter trajectory high power rifle like .308 or 30-06 is prefered. Also, as an interesting side note, some guys do use 30-30 for black bear, so x39 should be sufficient to hunt them, don't know about Grizzleys though. For hunting the question is almost whats the smallest cartridge I can use and still get a quick, humane kill, and for defense the Q becomes whats gonna knock this monster down ASAP.

 

That x39 is much more powerful than the 9mm, so if you have to choose between them, go Saiga x39.

 

 

thanks for the info man, one more thing is there like a special ammo that's has more killing power for the 7.62x39 like a brand or hollow point thanks

Edited by johnny79
Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't really have the answer for that. I just plink with Wolf, but I can tell you that based on my "experiments" on pumpkins, that the wolf soft points do much, much more damage than the HP and FMJ stuff. They also have a heavier slug and lower muzzle velocity. I would have no qualms about using wolf SP on a deer.

 

There are other domestic companies that produce higher quality 7.62x39 ammo, Winchester and I think Norma off the top of my head. I'd start there.

 

I dunno, anybody else?

Link to post
Share on other sites

johnny79 (and anyone else who camps in bear country)

 

You need to really talk to the park rangers in the area and see what they recommend for campers.

 

That being said, there are many many articles on the internet that discuss what firearms to bring along in the event of a bear attack. There is a lot of people that swear by hardcast bullets along with shot placement as a surefire way to bring a bear down. You do not want the round to expand quickly because it has to go through layers of fat and fur. Considering that a brown bear can weigh 600 to 900 lbs that is a lot of fat and fur, and that's not counting any layers of muscle or bone. Also, the fat can act as a sealant slowing down the bleedout of the animal. If you have a 12 gauge use slugs. I would want the .308 with the 12 gauge as backup.

 

Check this link out:

http://www.alaskanha.org/bears.cfm

 

The author quotes stats that during guided hunts on Kodiak Island for brown bear it took an average of 4.2 rounds to bring the bear down. These were hunts were the shooters had the element of surprise and were stalking the bears. He also discusses the pros and cons of some caliber choices. But in his database he had known of only 4 instances (at the time of writing) where people used 30-30's. 3 killed the bear and 1 missed. The 12 gauge was used in more instances and was only beaten by the 30-06. But if all you had was a 7.62X39 then use a hi-cap mag.

 

Seriously, if I had the cash I would wait for Tony's .444 Marlin conversion and bring that with hardcast bullets. But I'd definitely put several hundred rounds through it before relying on it as my sole bear defense gun. By no means am I knocking his work but I firmly believe in the "trust but verify" rule of thumb if my safety (or my family's) is on the line.

 

Also, keep in mind that I have never been attacked by a bear, nor know anyone that has ever been attacked by a bear. I do know that if 600 to 900 pounds of fur, claws, and fangs was rushing towards me my best defense might be to throw my soiled underwear at it. :cryss:

Link to post
Share on other sites
johnny79 (and anyone else who camps in bear country)

 

You need to really talk to the park rangers in the area and see what they recommend for campers.

 

That being said, there are many many articles on the internet that discuss what firearms to bring along in the event of a bear attack. There is a lot of people that swear by hardcast bullets along with shot placement as a surefire way to bring a bear down. You do not want the round to expand quickly because it has to go through layers of fat and fur. Considering that a brown bear can weigh 600 to 900 lbs that is a lot of fat and fur, and that's not counting any layers of muscle or bone. Also, the fat can act as a sealant slowing down the bleedout of the animal. If you have a 12 gauge use slugs. I would want the .308 with the 12 gauge as backup.

 

Check this link out:

http://www.alaskanha.org/bears.cfm

 

The author quotes stats that during guided hunts on Kodiak Island for brown bear it took an average of 4.2 rounds to bring the bear down. These were hunts were the shooters had the element of surprise and were stalking the bears. He also discusses the pros and cons of some caliber choices. But in his database he had known of only 4 instances (at the time of writing) where people used 30-30's. 3 killed the bear and 1 missed. The 12 gauge was used in more instances and was only beaten by the 30-06. But if all you had was a 7.62X39 then use a hi-cap mag.

 

Seriously, if I had the cash I would wait for Tony's .444 Marlin conversion and bring that with hardcast bullets. But I'd definitely put several hundred rounds through it before relying on it as my sole bear defense gun. By no means am I knocking his work but I firmly believe in the "trust but verify" rule of thumb if my safety (or my family's) is on the line.

 

Also, keep in mind that I have never been attacked by a bear, nor know anyone that has ever been attacked by a bear. I do know that if 600 to 900 pounds of fur, claws, and fangs was rushing towards me my best defense might be to throw my soiled underwear at it. :cryss:

 

thanks for the info man , i guess i need to buy the saiga 12 hehehehehe , i'll show this to my wife so she will give me half of the money

Link to post
Share on other sites
johnny79 (and anyone else who camps in bear country)

 

You need to really talk to the park rangers in the area and see what they recommend for campers.

 

I didn't mention it before, but I would expect about 99% of the rangers to tell you not to carry a firearm and to carry bear pepper spray instead. I dont know about grizzley country, but this is definately the case in black bear territory. I say screw them, if you are willing to carry the extra weight than more power to you. Still, Gunny is right, you should make some inquiries, and make sure you are informed of the laws wherever you are going, I seem to recall that some state parks dont allow you to carry, but I don't remember specifics.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's what I was told (20 years ago) by a professional hunting guide from Alaska.

 

 

 

1.) 12 gauge slugs for defense when bears surprise you on the trail or in camp. He told me that your safety is far from guaranteed, but, 12 guage slugs are your best bet.

 

2.) 30 06 is a bare minimum for hunting shots which should be taken at distance. As mentioned above, it may take several shots. Especially with the bigger bears.

 

3.) There is no 'safe' Alaskan Brown Bear hunt as you never know what will happen when you hunt these apex predators. They have the agression, intelligence, instinct, strength and the teeth & claws to make them deadly. They can, and will, kill and eat you.

Edited by Oswald2001
Link to post
Share on other sites

I used to fetch the trucks from the Ministry of Environment when I worked at a Dodge dealership, they ran Dodge trucks...

 

Anyway, quite common for the Officers to carry a 12 gage pump shotgun with slugs or 00 buck and S&W .357 revolvers.

 

We have decent sized black bears back home... the Officers said what they carried was enough for the black bears.

 

Pictures of bears from 2006:

 

http://www.huntingvancouverisland.com/phot...ar_hunting.html

 

We also have to deal with Cougars in the bush...

Edited by MD_Willington
Link to post
Share on other sites
I didn't mention it before, but I would expect about 99% of the rangers to tell you not to carry a firearm and to carry bear pepper spray instead.

 

Good point. Make sure you're not violating any firearms laws and if possible carry something with a bit more punch than pepper spray. Besides isn't that pepper spray supposed to be used like deodorant so that you are nice and tasty for the bear?

Link to post
Share on other sites
I didn't mention it before, but I would expect about 99% of the rangers to tell you not to carry a firearm and to carry bear pepper spray instead.

 

Good point. Make sure you're not violating any firearms laws and if possible carry something with a bit more punch than pepper spray. Besides isn't that pepper spray supposed to be used like deodorant so that you are nice and tasty for the bear?

 

:lol: Yeah, bears prefer a spicy human 10 to 1 over an unseasoned one.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Chatbox

    Load More
    You don't have permission to chat.
×
×
  • Create New...