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saiga 12 enough for a bear


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In 1 shot ... NO...at least not instantly. I wouldnt want anything less than a .300 magnum rifle with any kind of bear for a one shot kill.....still no guarantee of dropping it in its tracks .

Edited by akok
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If you had only one shot to defend your life with - Your 7.62x39 would most likely just piss the bear off.

 

Conversely, as Bob put it - a *well placed* 12ga. slug would most likely do the trick.

 

I'd bet my life on a 12ga (especially a saiga with 10 slugs in the mag) before I would any 7.62x39.

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I have a bunch of these in 3" magnum;

 

http://www.sauvestre.com/index_us.htm

 

I am sure one of those would put a bear down in 1 shot.

 

holy shit i want some of those!!!

where did you order those magnifacent beasts... a USA dealer?

 

Barrier target - 20 gauge steel plates; SHOT @ 50 YDS with the 2.75 inch load

YOUF3DHI1F3L6LV.JPG

 

:devil:

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I hunt quite a bit and Ive seen well placed slugs not stop a whitetail deer in one shot(punched big hole with little expansion).....I wouldnt bet my life on a shotgun slug when it comes to a large bear.....maybe its just me, but give me a .300 cal magnum bolt action with a good controlled expansion bullet. Now 10 slugs from a Saiga 12....yeah that works for me.

Edited by akok
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i have a saiga 7.62x39 but i kinda want the saiga 12 cause i feel my 7.62 ammo is not powerfull enough, is the saiga 12 enough to stop a bear with one shot thank you

 

johnny... is that the highpoint carbine... or the CX4 ?

 

 

hi point only i'm too broke to buy a cx-4

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If you hit the bear in the spine with that one shot almost anything will drop it in its tracks.

 

If your just firing into the bear, if you dont hit something vital, heart, both lungs, spine, or the brain it probably woulden't stop it in time to save you if it attacked you. If you hit an artery, trachea, or just one lung it'll die but how fast do you need it dead? What kind of bear are you talking about? Black bears dont get that big so I wouldent think twice about taking a 7.62x39mm.

 

I use to hunt, I placed my shots and never had to fire more than one on large game. I would hunt anything on this planet with a .308 winchester.

 

The only time I would worry about a bear is when bird hunting and your only allowed to have birdshot with you. Take some slugs or buck anyway just in case.

Edited by mike123456
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If you hit the bear in the spine with that one shot almost anything will drop it in its tracks.

 

If your just firing into the bear, if you dont hit something vital, heart, both lungs, spine, or the brain it probably woulden't stop it in time to save you if it attacked you. If you hit an artery, trachea, or just one lung it'll die but how fast do you need it dead? What kind of bear are you talking about? Black bears dont get that big so I wouldent think twice about taking a 7.62x39mm.

 

I use to hunt, I placed my shots and never had to fire more than one on large game. I would hunt anything on this planet with a .308 winchester.

 

The only time I would worry about a bear is when bird hunting and your only allowed to have birdshot with you. Take some slugs or buck anyway just in case.

 

on that note mike... is the 308 saiga a good hunter then?

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Agreed Mike - but under the stress of an attacking bear, the chances of neatly placing anything into his spine are going to decrease dramatically.

 

In a defensive situation, a 7.62x39 anywhere but a direct hit to the CNS or heart, and you most likely won't have the opportunity to get another shot off.

 

Maybe the OP was talking about hunting - I was thinking more defensively - i.e., an attack.

 

When the adrenaline hits, and your hands are shaking, and you KNOW for a fact that if you do not stop this thing, you are dead - I certainly wouldn't trust anything short of a 12ga slug for bear, and that's at a minimum... preferably magnums.

 

Then again, if you think you can stay cool enough to make that one magic shot while facing an animal that can literally rip both your arms off, by all means - pack what you wish.

 

Myself, I plan on shooting the thing again and again (and again) as quickly as possible - until it stops.

 

To this end, I believe the Saiga would make an effective tool for the dispatch of aggressive bears.

Edited by Badmo
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A very important issue here would be what species of bear are you talking about? Black, Brown, Grizzly???

 

If you are talking black then yes, I know a few people in my area that hunt balck bear with 12 gauges and .30-.45 non-magnum rifles and have not had problems with stopping power. Yet other species of bear are much heavier, stonger, denser, and all around more deadly.

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Here's a Thread from another forum.

Also a Paragraph from Chris Janowsky's book on Survival (WSI). "When hunting I use a .300 Weatherby magnum rifle. It has a very flat trajectory at longer ranges and hits like a hand grenade. I don't believe there is an animal I can't kill with one shot at ranges up to 400 yards with this rifle. But for charging grizzly at close range, a 12 guage shotgun loaded with rifled slugs is by far the finest bear-stopper I've seen. If you are not hunting but want a good bear defense gun, the 12 guage with slugs is the answer. then only remains that you learn to shoot it and shoot it accurately".

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Here's a Thread from another forum.

Also a Paragraph from Chris Janowsky's book on Survival (WSI). "When hunting I use a .300 Weatherby magnum rifle. It has a very flat trajectory at longer ranges and hits like a hand grenade. I don't believe there is an animal I can't kill with one shot at ranges up to 400 yards with this rifle. But for charging grizzly at close range, a 12 guage shotgun loaded with rifled slugs is by far the finest bear-stopper I've seen. If you are not hunting but want a good bear defense gun, the 12 guage with slugs is the answer. then only remains that you learn to shoot it and shoot it accurately".

 

What type of bear is indeed the biggest question. The second is the situation. I've lived in MT most of my 38 years, so although I'm no bear expert, I've been around them plenty.

 

I've seen grizzlies, on a steep side-slope, with nothing but scree for traction, accelerate so fast it was awe-inspiring. Being on the business end doesn't give one much of a chance. There are many stories of dead guys with handguns still in the holster. A hunter got ate about 15 miles from where I live a few years ago. He'd shot an elk and was tagging it, his rifle was within reach and handgun still in it's holster when the bear hit him. He never had a chance.

 

Many of the guides I know/met/talked to - (even in Alaska, I have a sister there I visit) use a 12 ga with OO buckshot. Many defensive situations with a bear are close quarters where you are reacting as fast as you can. Slugs are fricken deadly no doubt, but only one projectile.

 

Grizzlies are so damn tough, that many folks will tell you the idea (in a defensive situation) is to take them down via shoulder shots etc. rather than try to heart/lung them. There are many stories of grizzlies with bullet holes through the heart, living and doing amazing things like chasing guys down. Hence the idea between OO buck, tear up enough shoulder and the bear can't chase you down and chow you down.

 

I also know guys who carry the .300 mags (usually short barreled brush guns), and guys with 12ga slugs. Maybe mix and match...Personal choice.

 

When I backpack, I carry a .44 mag in grizzly country, which I practice with quite a bit. I carry my Glock .45 in black bear country. I shoot thousands of rounds a year through it, so I'm very confident in it but woe be me if that little 150lb Black bear was actually a pissed off 500lb monster blackie.

 

If I was doing something like guiding, I'd carry the 12 ga too, my Rem 1100 tactical would be great, although I'd love to have a Saiga shorty!

 

If I had the choice and new for sure I was going to be in a bear fight, whatever I'd be shooting would have wheels and a trailer hitch... :cryss:

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I would have to say that a (well-placed) 12-ga slug would stop any large predator.

 

 

That is very true.

 

 

I personally have not hunted any kind of bear, but I have read up on weapons to hunt or stop bears for years. The concensus is that larger calibers are always more effective. More weight and speed

will add more momentum and energy. I have read many times that 30.06 has taken every animal in North America, but is not nearly as effective as a 600 nitro, .50 bmg, or a 20 mm shoulder fired.

Many people that hunt browns or grizzlies post their results on hunting forums. You'll find 45-70 hardcast loads work well. .338 magnum, .375 H&H, etc.

The instances I have read about slugs used included hand loaded hard cast and Brenneke slugs.

A rifled shotgun slug is about 72 caliber. A hard cast (flat nose) is about optimum for this application.

600 grain Brennekes have been said more than once to pass completely through a Brown or Grizzly.

They have a proven track record. At least out to 100 yards.

 

 

From the website

http://www.brennekeusa.com/

In 1898 Wilhelm Brenneke invented the modern shotgun slug. The most revolutionary aspect of his invention were the ribs. They make it possible to shoot any of our lead slugs from any choked barrel, regardless of choke size. The ribs are compressed when they pass through the choke, and excess lead is squeezed into the gaps between the ribs. There is no danger to the shooter, to the gun or to bystanders, and no wear and tear on the gun. Excellent accuracy is retained.

 

 

Black Magic Magnum 12 / 3" up to 100 yds large/dangerous

 

Gold Magnum 12 / 3" 100 + yds large/dangerous

 

Google some alaska hunting forums and research alot. Past 100 yards a rifle might be more in order.

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If you are hunting, lots of things work, and a big factor would be expected distance.

 

For a short range, charging, self defense scenario, 12ga all the way! I've read (which makes what I'm about to type 3rd hand info) that the alaskan brush guys prefer the 12 ga (I thought slugs, but I'm not sure). I think penetration is the key for bear (second as in EVERY scenario to shot placement). Hard to beat the 12 ga slug for that.

 

It doesn't have to expand, it comes right out of the package at .7 inches!

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With a 10 round magazine, a Saiga 12 is about the best short range slug launcher for the money.

How many semi-auto shotguns can you buy for less than $1000 that will consecutively launch 10 slugs into a bear quickly and reliably? USAS can launch 20 slugs, but at a much higher price for the platform.

 

 

Compare these rifles:

A semiauto .338 BAR has a 3 round mag (with a suggested retail price over $1100 ), a .45-70 lever action is about $500 (but is limited to a few rounds and is much slower than a Saiga 12), and a semiauto Barrett Model 82A1 .50BMG holds 10 rounds ( but at a cost of about $8000).

 

African Safari double rifles that shoot 600 nitro or 700 nitro cost way up there.

I have seen H&H versions priced at $10,000 on up.

Edited by dog
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I spent a couple of years in Alaska during my first military assignment and had one close encounter of the bear type while on a fishing trip. Bear move surprising fast for their bulk and will approach from cover rather from the open. At close range, 3-inch copper plated rifled slugs should suffice as you would want penetration through the thick hide and smash bones and vital organs. As with any critical situation of this type, shot place will be key and the Saiga-12 with a mag of slugs should do the trick.

In certain parts of Alaska, the bears seem to have a better score over the hunters. The locals I worked with gave me words of wisdom when I asked about fishing in bear territory and toting a S&W .357 magnum revolver for self-protection "...that pistol is good, but you may need to save the last shot for yourself."

 

Quote for the Tongass National Park website:

 

"A .300-Magnum rifle or a 12-gauge shotgun with rifled slugs are appropriate weapons if you have to shoot a bear. Heavy handguns such as a .44-Magnum may be inadequate in emergency situations, especially in untrained hands."

 

http://www.fs.fed.us/r10/tongass/forest_fa...y/bearfacts.htm

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I have seen first-hand black bear, moose, snapping turtles with 4 foot long shells, cougar, and cattle (yes the owner shoots and butchers his own cows, and a head shot doesnt always do it. It wouldnt surprise me if the term "thick headed" was invented for cows, actually.) taken with one shot from a 12 gauge slug. I have wiped out an entire pack of rabid and manged ferral dogs in the middle of the night with a 12 gauge and 15 pellet buckshot, as well, when we had livestock when I was younger.

 

I have seen the NYcidiots take small calfs, goats, and a number of other animals during deer season with 12 gauge slugs, as well. we even had a local hunter take one to the head last season right over the hill from where I shoot.

 

there is not much on this earth that can withstand a 12 gauge slug or 15 pellet buckshot at close range, and almost nothing on this continent can stand up to one at short range, including the most dangerous animal, humans...

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sabots shouldnt really be fired down a rifled choke. you CAN, but it isnt the best method. the slug might still tumble. out of a smoothebore, they will keyhole inside 20 yards, as well, so you need a rifled barrel, is whats ideal.

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on that note mike... is the 308 saiga a good hunter then?

 

I dont know what kind of accuracy you will get out of the .308 saiga and I dont personaly own one so I cant say.

 

I prefer AR15/M16 style weapons like the AR10 because of the faster reloads, the bolt catch locks it open after the last round, metal magazines, and dozens of other reasons.

 

The only AK design weapons I own are the saiga 12's. my complaints about the AK are: AK47's arent accurate enough(except in shotgun), you cant mount a optic on the top cover where it should be because thats how its disassembled, the optic mounts that attach to the side of the reciever are ugly, the bolt dosent lock open after the last round making you constantly do a press check to make sure a round is in the chamber, you have to reach over the weapon with your left hand to charge it or take your firing hand off the pistol grip. I can go on and on.

 

You may want to take buckshot over a slug, buckshot at close range will do more damage than a slug would, the shot penitrates in one spot, and spreads out inside the target making a massive hole. I use TAP because it has the tightest shot pattern and I want as meny pellots to hit the target as possable.

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Christ a 12ga should stop a bear easly unless you shoot it in the ass lol, i used a 12ga last year for dear and the deer up here are pretty big. I used 3" and 3 1/2" magnums and when you shoot a deer at about 50 yards with a 3 1/2" mag you might want to put up an umbrella( they fan out to .73 calibre on impact), to tell you the truth the 3" mags arn't anything to joke about eather. I hit a nine pointer (pretty bulky in size) in the neck and it praticaly decpitated it instantly. I know a bear is a biger and you might want to be farther than 50 yards away but some slugs are pretty accurate and deadly now, and you coluld probably get it at about 75-100 yard range if you hit it in the heart, lungs or the head (if it is sighted in right) :lol: .

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