Please help diagnose a chronic FTE problem

[bugeye 2]

Cobra, thanks for taking the time to take the photos and post this tutorial. I know that takes a lot of time and takes your concentration away from the real job at hand. 99% of us will never attempt that surgery but it really offers us a lot information on how these weapons work and are put together. If I ever do need my gas ports opened up I definitely know who to call.!

 

Now to put the gas block back on do you just beat in on with a hammer??

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

LOL JohnnyGun and you are welcome.

Yes pretty much...I don't know if beat is the right word...lol.

 

Maybe...some lube (break free) and carefully applied force with the aid of a wooden block and large hammer sounds better

 

Ahh hell why candy coat it...just beat that bastard back on there and take care to line it up exactly right and not ding it up. A piece of oak or hickory is hard enough to get the job done but not deform the metal of the GB.

 

I put the gun (with a spare scrap AK stock) upright in a padded vice (towel and wood blocks) and went at it with the hammer and oak block.

 

 

Got it all the way back on the first time and forgot the damned gas tube Ooops! lol

Don't do that. It causes an involuntary spew of prolific profanity!

So off it came again, just enough to fit the gas tube, and back on again. Got it mostly lined up and then adjusted to TDC with a rubber mallet. Pins and plunger back in and all is well.

Bottom pin in first.

 

Then start the top pin (alsofrom the left side) and install the detent (plunger) notched side down, and spring, holding it in place with a slave pin.

 

Carefully drive the top pin back in while pushing the slave pin out to keep the plunger from flying. Use a punch to drive it in flush and you're done.

 

Viola!

 

 

Done

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

lol shannon... you kill a troll to get that battle axe?

No but I would gladly use it on one...lol

 

Gift from a friend to keep by the workbench in case the zombies come while I'm working....

[sourceofuncertainty 0]

Thanks again Cobra - this is extremely helpful. These kinds of projects can be very intimidating for us amateur WECSOGers, so it's incredibly valuable (not to mention inspiring) to see the actual operation.

 

I thought of a couple more questions as I was looking at these latest pics.

 

- How do you know when you've reached top dead center, putting the gas block back on? Is it just when the gas block will mate with the gas tube, or is there more to it than that?

- On the 3 vs. 4 hole issue... any particular reason you went with 4 instead of 3? I'm inclined to expand the 3 holes I have, rather than adding a 4th, but that's just me trying to get out doing extra work

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

- How do you know when you've reached top dead center, putting the gas block back on? Is it just when the gas block will mate with the gas tube, or is there more to it than that?

I just eyeballed it and checked it with a yardstick going from the center of the trunnion and rear sight notch to the center of the muzzle.

 

 

- On the 3 vs. 4 hole issue... any particular reason you went with 4 instead of 3? I'm inclined to expand the 3 holes I have, rather than adding a 4th, but that's just me trying to get out doing extra work

 

I think the 4th hole is a better way to go since that's how the 19" guns were done. Plus you can always enlarge them if you need to. Once you are this far into S-12 surgery, drilling a hole is not the the hard part.

[sourceofuncertainty 0]

I think the 4th hole is a better way to go since that's how the 19" guns were done. Plus you can always enlarge them if you need to. Once you are this far into S-12 surgery, drilling a hole is not the the hard part.

 

Any recommendations on the hole size if I go with 4 holes? Seems like the middle ground between what you used and what Tony was suggesting with a 3-hole configuration might be might be 4 holes at 3/32 (.09375") or 7/64 (1.09375). I'm rounding to the closest bit size that I think I'm likely to find easily...

 

I suppose I can always start small and enlarge it later, but it would be great to have it work the first time out.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Yes it would. 3/32" sounds good to me. I can almost guarantee you if that doesn't get it, you can put a different recoil spring in there and that will make it run. I just ran two more ten rdrs thru the 18 today and it worked great. I think if I had enlarged the ports to a bigger size like that it would be running even better and I could put the original spring back in there. Right now it's only kicking the hulls about 3 feet in front of me and to the right. If it was really cycling good they would be farther away.

Just be careful to keep them all at the same angle and don't get them tooclose to each other. Also make sure they are all within the circle open to the mainifold.

[sourceofuncertainty 0]

Just be careful to keep them all at the same angle

 

Hm, that's a point I hadn't thought about. I saw in the photos that you were using a hand drill. Other than eyeballing it, were you doing anything in particular to keep the angles consistent?

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Nothing but holding steady and praying I wouldn't mess up and break my bit. After you have them all drilled you can speed up the drill some and "rock the holes back" some to all be the same. Not that crucial thet they be exactly the same I don't think.

[sourceofuncertainty 0]

Here's an update for anyone interested...

 

I successfully removed the GB from my Saiga-12 just now. It actually went fairly smoothly, all things considered. Did it myself, with the Saiga resting against a crappy file cabinet - and a towel between the cabinet surface and the shotgun.

 

My damn painter's tape went AWOL on me, so I used common masking tape. Worked ok, but I may end up having to touch up the barrel finish later - we'll see.

 

I used the largest brass punch I could find, which wasn't all that large (where did you get yours, Cobra?). The punch deformed a bit during the operation, but not so much as to be unusable. For hammers I used a 32oz ball peen, and a much heavier construction hammer. I did most of the work with the construction hammer, then finished with the ball peen.

 

Oddly, after removing the two retaining pins I discovered that the detent and spring that lock the gas regulator in position, didn't want to come out. I even tried pulling a bit with pliers, but they seemed to want to stay in place. So I left 'em there.

 

In my case, I have a shark brake with spikey points on the end, so I used a thick piece of Douglas Fir on which to rest the barrel.

 

All told, a success. And hell, If -I- can do this, anyone can.

 

I've attached some pics to demonstrate the tools & approach I used.

 

On to the next step... the dreaded drilling. Wish me luck!

[lelandeod 179]

I'm watching this thread with great interest!

 

Congrats on a successful phase I!

[sourceofuncertainty 0]

By the way, in that last pic the barrel looks really scratched up, but that's just the tape residue. I removed the tape leftovers just now and the barrel's fine.

[kmoore 3]

Nice pic's, thx for documenting!

[sourceofuncertainty 0]

Okay, here's the latest update.

 

I drilled the barrel yesterday. Overall it went well, but with a few complications - I'll get to those in a moment.

 

Not having any kind of rifle rest, I used two large woodworking clamps to hold the rifle steady to the table (Bessey 'K' clamps if anyone cares - they have a non-marring plastic jaw so they're a good choice for this sort of thing).

 

I measured and center-punched a spot for a 4th hole.

 

I drilled out the existing holes to 3/32, using a liberal amount of cutting oil, and going slowly - stopping to clear debris from the bit & re-oil each time it started to accumulate metal shavings. All told, it went quicker than I expected. Maybe took me 10-15 minutes to deal with the whole thing, once I had it set up on my work table.

 

First complication - apparently I have piss-poor metalworking skills. Which is to say, I didn't get the 4th hole lined up quite where I wanted it. But more importantly, when I measured the spot for the 4th hole I forgot to account for the fact that all the holes would be larger once expanded (duh). So I ended up in a situation where drilling the 4th hole all the way out would have resulted in two of the holes overlapping, with no 'wall' between them. Not so good.

 

So to avoid that result, I ended up with 3 enlarged holes in the original location, and a 4th new hole that's one drill bit size smaller (5/64) and not angled. Overall it's not such a bad compromise, but it's sloppier than I would have liked (see pic).

 

I cleaned up the top of the barrel using a dremel. I don't have a 12 ga brass brush, so to clean out the inside burrs I improvised a little, taking a small sanding tube from my dremel kit and attaching it with tape to a small bore cleaning rod (see pic). I then ran the cleaning rod into the barrel and carefully rubbed away the shavings on the inside of the barrel, beneath the holes. I used a small flashlight stuck in the breech end to check my work - you definitely don't want to leave burrs in there.

 

Putting the gun back together was more difficult than taking it apart, for two reasons:

 

- It took a few tries to get the gas block lined up to top dead center, and it took more aggressive hammering than I expected, to get it to rotate. I placed a towel over the GB to prevent marring, and that worked ok.

 

- I discovered that my gas tube has a slight irregularity on its "notch" at the bottom which prevents it from mating up to the trunnion perfectly. Not sure if the previous owner caused this problem, or if it's just a manufacturing defect. I didn't even notice it until I looked at the gas tube to trunnion fit side by side with my stock Saiga. I probably should have taken the time to stone the gas tube notch until I got a perfect fit, but frustration got the better of me and I decided to live with the problem. It does explain why the top cover fit has never been quite perfect on this gun. Some day I may go back and fix this, but for now I'll live with it. Needless to say, this problem won't apply to most other folks.

 

Anyway, to keep the gas tube in place while the gas block was being reinserted, I taped it down (see pic - sorry, it's a little out of focus). I then lubed up the outside of the barrel with some break free. Using a large piece of hard maple and the construction hammer, I hammered the gas block back down the barrel, stopping about every dozen blows to check progress and to make sure the gas block wasn't shifting too far away from top dead center.

 

As I mentioned, this took a few tries. I mated up the gas block and gas tube once or twice only to discover that the GB was too far off from top dead center. So I grabbed the brass punch, flipped the gun over, and pushed the GB back a little, and tried again.

 

Eventually I got it back together. As I said, overall it wasn't that difficult - it just took some patience and a couple of tries to get it right.

 

If I could do it again, I'd take more time on the hole placement. I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but last time I needed to drill precision holes, I created a 1:1 template in Photoshop, printed it on transparent plastic (the kind they use for overhead projections - available at any office supply store), and overlaid it onto the work. This approach would have served me well here, and I feel foolish for not thinking of it sooner. But I suspect the hole placement I ended up with will work almost as well as what I intended to accomplish.

 

Now with everything back together I'll now try to get to the range this weekend for function testing. More info to follow...

[sourceofuncertainty 0]

Just back from the range for function testing.

 

Summary: Runs like a top with the same ammo it wouldn't cycle before. Fed and ejected 100% with Remington bulk pack sport loads (8 shot, 3 dram, 1200 FPS). Recoil is slightly sharper, presumably due to the additional gas in the system from the larger gas ports.

 

The details: I ran a number of different rounds through the S12, starting with the Remington bulk pack sport loads it wouldn't eject before. Out of about 40 rounds, all 40 fed and ejected perfectly using the "2" gas setting. Woo hoo!

 

I then tested a number of other light to medium loads, and had mostly good results. I had a handful of FTEs with Winchester AA light target load, but this mirrors my experience with this load in my unconverted Saiga - neither gun seems to like this load very much.

 

I had one FTE out of about 20 rounds using Winchester AA heavy target load. My recollection is that the unconverted Saiga likes this round OK, so more testing is warranted here.

 

Winchester AA super sport sporting clay loads all ejected fine, but a number of them failed to seat fully when loaded, causing FTF. I don't recall whether or not I had trouble with these loads in the unconverted Saiga, but in any event the problem is loading, not ejecting - so not related to the gas port issue.

 

I will go back at a different time to test heavy loads (buckshot and slugs), but wanted to do some initial testing with light loads first. Since the converted Saiga ran heavy loads just fine before, I'm willing to bet that it'll still run them just fine.

 

Overall, success! I am -much- happier with the S12 now, and no longer wish to use it to drive fence posts.

 

Thanks very much to Cobra and the rest for offering feedback and encouragement - I definitely would have given up without you folks.

 

I'll post again down the road when I've had the time to test more loads and variations like with/without recoil buffer, etc. But overall, we appear to have a winner.

[cscharlie 107]

Congragulations! I always like a happy ending.

 

Since you did not get that fourth hole drilled at an angle, you might want to keep an eye open for plastic shavings in it. Let us know if you start to find any. CS

[HEADHUNTER 0]

Congragulations! I always like a happy ending.

 

Since you did not get that fourth hole drilled at an angle, you might want to keep an eye open for plastic shavings in it. Let us know if you start to find any. CS

 

 

My s12 wouldn't cycle light loads at first either. I was way too impatient for it to maybe break in after a couple hundred rounds so I thought of a way to expand the gas ports a little. I had to take a dremmel grinding bit that tapered to a point (like a cone) and bend it with 2 channel locks to a 90 degree angle. The bit had to be small enough to fit in the ports as they were to begin with so I could grind the full contact surface of each port. I then removed the gas plug / pistion and began to slowly grind away at each port by hand holding the rear of the bit between my thumb and forefinger (and a 3 watt led mag lite between my chin and shoulder to see down into the gas tube). Needless to say you must be a little OCD to be able to perform this for hours on end until you get it just right, but I did. I would grind each of the 4 ports a while, re-assemble, test, disassemble, and grind again. It finally got to where it would throw the el-cheapo 100 round value pack 1oz loads about 3 feet to my right and cycle smoothly. That was a couple weeks ago. I tried it again just the other day and it started stovepiping again (growl), but I was shooting with the stock folded from the hip. I guess more grinding is in order because I want it to function no matter what position I happen to be firing in. I'm gonna have Cobra help me with some other mods pretty soon as well and I can't wait. If anyone sees a reason I shouldn't use the method I've been using on th eports please let me know. I'll be getting some more cheap shells this week and try her out again after about 30 minutes of grinding.

[sourceofuncertainty 0]

you might want to keep an eye open for plastic shavings in it.

 

Thanks, I'll watch out for that. I guess that'd be from the plastic wads? It hadn't occurred to me that might be a risk - but I'll keep an eye on it and will report on it later.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Congragulations! I always like a happy ending.

 

Since you did not get that fourth hole drilled at an angle, you might want to keep an eye open for plastic shavings in it. Let us know if you start to find any. CS

 

 

My s12 wouldn't cycle light loads at first either. I was way too impatient for it to maybe break in after a couple hundred rounds so I thought of a way to expand the gas ports a little. I had to take a dremmel grinding bit that tapered to a point (like a cone) and bend it with 2 channel locks to a 90 degree angle. The bit had to be small enough to fit in the ports as they were to begin with so I could grind the full contact surface of each port. I then removed the gas plug / pistion and began to slowly grind away at each port by hand holding the rear of the bit between my thumb and forefinger (and a 3 watt led mag lite between my chin and shoulder to see down into the gas tube). Needless to say you must be a little OCD to be able to perform this for hours on end until you get it just right, but I did. I would grind each of the 4 ports a while, re-assemble, test, disassemble, and grind again. It finally got to where it would throw the el-cheapo 100 round value pack 1oz loads about 3 feet to my right and cycle smoothly. That was a couple weeks ago. I tried it again just the other day and it started stovepiping again (growl), but I was shooting with the stock folded from the hip. I guess more grinding is in order because I want it to function no matter what position I happen to be firing in. I'm gonna have Cobra help me with some other mods pretty soon as well and I can't wait. If anyone sees a reason I shouldn't use the method I've been using on th eports please let me know. I'll be getting some more cheap shells this week and try her out again after about 30 minutes of grinding.

Cool man just come on by and we will have that baby right in no time!

It's always nice to meet a fellow NC Saiga dude!

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

you might want to keep an eye open for plastic shavings in it.

 

Thanks, I'll watch out for that. I guess that'd be from the plastic wads? It hadn't occurred to me that might be a risk - but I'll keep an eye on it and will report on it later.

 

Congrats man! I'm glad I could help. It was a learning experience for me as well.

[bugeye 2]

Had the same problem on a buddy's conversion. The problem with his was in the triggergroup. I have always used the adjustable trigger group from Brownells and it dropped in with no alteration. My friend ordered the tapco and found that the hammer needed a little tweaking. He tried and it finctioned fine hand cycleing on the bench but jammed up at the range. I took the hammer out and gave it a little dremmel work and it works fine now.

Who did this conversion and what parts did they use?

 

 

This forum is the best.........I am in the middle of converting my S-12. Put the TAPCO G2 trigger in and put it back together to "hand test" my work. My Lord it was difficult to cycle the bolt...very stiff. It was even harder to get the bolt to go back forward. Strange because this part of my first conversion went so smoothly. Then the light came on in my head...... I read about this issue not too long ago. Found this thread and took out the old dremel. I re shaped the angles on the hammer and took just a wee bit off the face. The bolt operates very smoothly now. Thanks for the tip guys!

 

The next issue was the freaking shepards hook. Something was not alinging up correctly. Never had that problem before. Spent an hour shaving a bit here and there till it now fits tight as a tic. Tomorrow the part I dread the most...cutting the pistol grip hole.

[sourceofuncertainty 0]

An update for anyone who was following this thread before.

 

I finally got over to the range to do part 2 of function testing.

 

Using gas setting "2", the Saiga cycled Federal and Remington bulk birdshot (the kind that comes in the 100-rd boxes) perfectly. 100% function - no trouble at all. The Federal loads seemed a little hotter to me, for whatever that's worth.

 

I then tried some Remington 3" Express Magnum and normal-length Wolf 00 buckshot loads with the "1" gas setting. Perfection function also.

 

Let me tell you, that Wolf 00 buckshot is stout! I thought the express magnum loads were hot, until I tried the buckshot. Whew! Got a nice big fireball about every 4th round, too.

 

Anyway, the final test for the day was to see if light target loads would cycle on the "1" gas setting (they're not really supposed to). Sure enough, they did not. 100% failure to eject with light target loads using the "1" setting. That's what I expected, but I was checking to see if I might have gotten lucky - I've read that a few people can get 100% function with all loads on the "1" setting.

 

So bottom line - the Saiga seems to be working exactly as designed. Thanks again for all the help with diagnosing the problem!

 

Oh - I forgot to mention - I had a Blackjack green recoil buffer installed for the entire test. So, that works too. Next time I may try the same loads using the thicker Buffertech buffer, to see if it has any impact on cycling.

Edited August 10, 2007 by sourceofuncertainty

[rjcatp101 0]

I had chronic FTE problems, i knocked that GB off and drilled the holes to 3/32. I went shooting today and my baby was stroking through wally world bulk. needless to say I had a shit eatin grin on my face . Now i will say that it worked the best with #1 spring from CSS, AGP and factory mags worked flawless. I guess i need to make some adjustments to MDs drum to make it work with those cheap rounds? I have always had the drum mag work with hotter loads but this is the first time i have tried it with light loads, so maybe some pointers on how i do this guys?