Please help diagnose a chronic FTE problem

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Well sorry if my answer was not what you wanted to hear. I could have just blown some smoke up your ass and told you to grind / polish your hammer to match your Saiga hammer but from the info I was given I can tell you that is not going to solve your problem. Your barrel is too short and your ports are to small. It's that simple. There are a multiotude of things you can try that will improve cycling but none are going to make your gun run 100% on cheap ammo. I was only trying to help you get it to do just that. I have dealt with the exact same issues before on several guns and I know what I'm talking about. Your barrel is 17" not 18 or 19. You can reshape your hammer and polish it, yes that will help a little. You can polish your rails and the underside of your bolt carrier. You can swap the forward recoil spring out with a lighter one. You can go buy a bunch of 3"magnum slugs and shoot the crap out of it on the wrong gas setting (use a buffer) to help break it in faster. You can lube the polished sufaces to make it run as slick as snot and have the least possible resistance. Yes the Tapco hammer has a hump that the bolt carrier rides across causing some resistance but it's not enopugh to make any Saiga perform poorly if it doesn't already have a problem. I have converted every one of the popular Saigas (12, 20 410, 223.308,x39) and I have used the Tapco G-2 in all of them. ALL of them run 100% now, even my finicky S-20 that I eventually won this same battle with. You can put an expensive Red Star fcg in there but that won't fix your problem. Like you stated yourself in the title of this thread, your problem is chronic.

17" bbl + small ports = poor cycling... or NO cycling with cheap ammo.

 

Don't listen to me though. As vjor says I'm just a dumb peasant...

 

After you have tried all the other things and convinced yourself that I must be right, I'll still help you if you want. I have done gas block R&R and port doctoring with basic tools and in fact I'm doing that exact thing today on the 18"er I referred to earlier.

I could just do the other tricks and HOPE it doesn't jam on me when I'm depending on it but I would rather be SURE.

When I noticed it was short stroking right after I cut the barrel, I was using winchester #7.5 and Remington #8 cheapo loads. With both of them it was not even pulling them fully out of the chamber, and ramming them right back in. At that point I KNEW I was going to HAVE to enlarge the ports, but just to experiment I tried swapping the spring out with the Colt spring that helped fix my S-20. I had already polished my hammer, (not reshaped) like I do on all my conversions. I was not too surpised when it actually cycled a full mag of one of those same cheap loads and almost worked with the other (FTE stovepipes, where before it had not even reached the ejector). If I reshape the hammer and superpolish everything that touches (rails included) it may even improve a little more but I definately would not trust my life with it.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

I suggest you spend a little time reading the S-20 forum and some of the fixes that have been put there for the all to finicky S-20s. There are some good threads, some in the tech section, dealing with short stroking.

[quinci956 1]

I suggest you spend a little time reading the S-20 forum and some of the fixes that have been put there for the all to finicky S-20s. There are some good threads, some in the tech section, dealing with short stroking.

 

What is the easiest way to open the gas ports. Can you post photos of the one you are doing now as a tutorial? A small right angle drill would be handy for this. Like a dentist drill but for metal.

Edited June 26, 2007 by madmilo

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

I was planning on doing just that. It will be a good addition to the tech section. I wish I had someone to help though. Last time it was a hell of a job even with an extra pair of hands and we weren't even trying to take pictures then. It was on Aegis Dei's 16.5" S-20 and we ended up having to do it all twice because the first time we didn't get the ports reamed out quite enough. It was a little easier the second time but not much.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Dude are you reading my mind or what? LOL! I have been trying to get my hands on a dentists drill for about a month or so...

[quinci956 1]

Grinding the hammer won't hurt (unless you fall asleep at the "wheel" ) It will likely help, especially polishing the surfaces that ride against each other. This may get you near 100%, but my guess is you really want to open up the ports. I mention this because you are going to be tempted to do the easy fix first, before changing the ports.

 

Yeah, I sure would prefer not to remove the gas block (or whatever the right term is for it on an S12). I'm going to try grinding & polishing the hammer first. Worst case, I ruin a Tapco hammer and don't solve the problem. If that doesn't work I'll either go the gas port route, or just sell the damn thing to someone with more spare time than me & start over from scratch.

 

I certainly appreciate all the feedback, guys.

 

Now, who here has removed the gas block, and what all is involved?

 

Madmilo, it looks like you're talking about the Red Star adjustable trigger group. I happen to have two of 'em laying around. I was under the impression that they don't fit Saigas, but maybe what you're referring to is a different model.

 

I had been buying those fcg' from brownell's and they were listed as power custom brand. They quit selling the sar fcg that drops right in and power custom does not list them any longer so I thought I was sunk and would have to go to another fcg. I checked Red Star Arms as you suggested and there they are. They are still expensive but they are so easy and once you understand the adjustments you can make it feel how ever you want. The one on my .223 is better than any of my AR's. Thanks for the heads up. I threw all of the paper labels away after receiving my last one so I did not know to look at Red Star.

By the way Cobra is probably right on your gas ports needing attention. Everyone else, myself included, was sugar coating and dancing around the problem because it is not an easy fix unless Cobra knows a secret trick that I hope he shares with us. I felt that you did not want to go that way but it is not rocket science. There is nothing on these rifles that the average Joe cant fix with regular tools. Get instruction from Cobra and some others here and tackle it yourself. If you ruin the barrel I'll buy it from you and have a shorty made from it (legally of course). I think you will be amazed at what you can do yourself on these guns. Then there is the pride of showing it to someone and pointing out all of the seemingly impossible work you did.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Yep a gun is nothing but a tool. It can be sharpened like a knife. You just have to remove a little steel.

Just in case you feel alone with this problem, you might want to check out this thread...

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=17552 <edited>

 

Yesterday before posting here I was trying to help someone else with the same problem.

Edited June 28, 2007 by Cobra 76 two

[sourceofuncertainty 0]

I could have just blown some smoke up your ass and told you to grind / polish your hammer to match your Saiga hammer but from the info I was given I can tell you that is not going to solve your problem. Your barrel is too short and your ports are to small. It's that simple.

 

Cobra - just to clarify, I very much appreciate the advice and feedback. Hopefully you don't feel I was being dismissive of your opinion - that wasn't my intention. On the contrary - I expect you're right. I was just hoping I could solve the problem without drilling the gas ports, but that probably isn't reality.

 

So, I look forward to hearing how this is done. In the meantime I'll make the hammer closer in profile to the original - even if that doesn't help, I don't think it can hurt. And I'll also be looking into choke options as per the other suggestions.

 

My goal is indeed to have a 100% reliable Saiga, so I'll probably end up doing a number of things.

[TonyRumore 1,332]

Just remove the two pins from the gas block and press it off. Add a fourth gas port if possible (.076) then press the block back on and drive in the two pins. Then tap the block left/right to align it at top dead center. The two cross pins don't provide much, if any, rotational control, so you will need to align the block even if the cross pins go in fine.

 

Tony

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Just remove the two pins from the gas block and press it off. Add a fourth gas port if possible (.076) then press the block back on and drive in the two pins. Then tap the block left/right to align it at top dead center. The two cross pins don't provide much, if any, rotational control, so you will need to align the block even if the cross pins go in fine.

 

Tony

Thanks Tony. Do you know what the size of the original holes are and if they are any bigger or smaller between the three hole guns and the four hole guns? Also if I add a .076" hole for a 4th port in this cut down 24"er will that be enough or do I also need to increase the size of the other three? It's just barely over 18" now.

 

Shannon

[sourceofuncertainty 0]

Just remove the two pins from the gas block and press it off.

 

Thanks Tony. Any suggestions on how one might go about the "pressing it off part", given a fairly WECSOG-style setup? I've tapped stuck gas tubes off of Garands before, but I ended up leaving more dings than I wanted to.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Did you check out that thread I linked to in the 20 ga section? We were discussing that there.

If you don't have a press to do it right you will have too drive it off with a big hammer and a block of hardwood or a punch made of something softer than the GB like brass.

You will probably also need heat applied to it.

If you get the pins out and it won't budge after soaking it with penetrating oil and heating and beating it, there's a trick I've heard of that works.

Get a small hose that will fit down the barrel and run ice cold water thru it while at the same time, heating up the outside of the barel hoop of the GB.

[TonyRumore 1,332]

The gas port sizes are the same on the 3 and 4 port guns. The early ones were all .073", but the ones I am seeing now are .076". On an 18" gun, I would use 4ea .076" holes and rock them back at a angle a bit more then the factory angle.

 

There are two different hole patterns on the 3 port guns. If you are lucky, your gun will have the 4 port pattern, but be missing the top hole. If you have 3 ports spaced pefectly centered around the gas block hole, then there is really no room to add a 4th hole.

[sourceofuncertainty 0]

Did you check out that thread I linked to in the 20 ga section? We were discussing that there.

 

I might just be dense, but I don't see anything about gas block removal in that post... I tried searching just now and don't see a thread about this. You sure that's the right link?

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Thanks for the info Tony. This forum rocks!

 

Sorry bout that man. Here's the one I meant to post....

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=17552

[topmaul 42]

I am helping some one with the same problem, that short barreled full auto Saiga Tom made would fire low brass stuff once Tom put a choke tube in it. That little resistance works wonders. I remember we shot 7 1/2 with it and it did fine.

[twinhairdryers 2]

Grinding the hammer won't hurt (unless you fall asleep at the "wheel" ) It will likely help, especially polishing the surfaces that ride against each other. This may get you near 100%, but my guess is you really want to open up the ports. I mention this because you are going to be tempted to do the easy fix first, before changing the ports.

 

Yeah, I sure would prefer not to remove the gas block (or whatever the right term is for it on an S12). I'm going to try grinding & polishing the hammer first. Worst case, I ruin a Tapco hammer and don't solve the problem. If that doesn't work I'll either go the gas port route, or just sell the damn thing to someone with more spare time than me & start over from scratch.

 

I certainly appreciate all the feedback, guys.

 

Now, who here has removed the gas block, and what all is involved?

 

Madmilo, it looks like you're talking about the Red Star adjustable trigger group. I happen to have two of 'em laying around. I was under the impression that they don't fit Saigas, but maybe what you're referring to is a different model.

 

Nobody but Kobra is giving my semi-novice advice any attentention, "I'd start with measuring the barrel length. There were a LOT of early conversions that folks cut down the barrels and did nothing to expand the gas holes to compensate for it. I'll bet nearly all of them have now been opened up at some point. I tried every trick in the book prior to nocking my gas block off and opening up the ports, and nothing worked until I bit the bullet and knocked it off. There should be a way you could get a small tool in there to measure the diameter and # of holes you have before just removing it, but this is beyond my smithing abilities and tools."

 

I was in exactly your position, and ended up doing EVERY thing in the book I could find on this sight to NOT remove my gas block and drill out the holes. Mostly, because I tried a couple times without enough mallet finess and just couldn't get the damn thing to budge.

 

To cut a long story short (no pun intended), after months of screwing around every trick in the book, I took 2 hours, slammed the gas block off, drilled the holes out carefully so as not to burr the inside diam into the barrel, re-installed the block. Since those two hours work, I have had zero issues cycling #8 dove shot loads on #1 gas setting.

 

Nuf said. I agree, that hammer looks odd, but until you make that gas system right, you can't even begin to troubleshoot that friction/hammer issue one bit.

[G O B 3,516]

The hammer is a seperate issue. For Saigas the original is ground to be square with the tail of the bolt where the firing pin protudes. This allows the bolt to ride over it with less overtravel when it cycles and recocks the hammer. Too much ground off and you may not cock the hammer properly, but with the G2 "hump" unground you get triggerslap.

[Pointer 21]

I guess im the only one on the planet with a cut down 18 1/2" barrel thats not opened the ports...but honest to god i have never shot anything but heavy buckshot and slug loads,it aint no f*ckin bird gun.Now i gotta go buy a box of cheap stuff and let the jammin begin!

[sourceofuncertainty 0]

Nobody but Kobra is giving my semi-novice advice any attentention, "I'd start with measuring the barrel length. There were a LOT of early conversions that folks cut down the barrels and did nothing to expand the gas holes to compensate for it. I'll bet nearly all of them have now been opened up at some point. I tried every trick in the book prior to nocking my gas block off and opening up the ports, and nothing worked until I bit the bullet and knocked it off. There should be a way you could get a small tool in there to measure the diameter and # of holes you have before just removing it, but this is beyond my smithing abilities and tools."

 

Ok, you guys win - I'm convinced. The barrel is most likely going to need to be ported.

 

Now I gotta go find a set of brass punches or WECSOG equivalent...

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

I got Racegal20 to take some pics of me knocking the GB off my 18"er last nite. I'll post them here shortly so you can see how easy it was.

[sourceofuncertainty 0]

Thanks Cobra - that'll be very helpful to see.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Ok here are a few pics of the GB removal . When I have time I'm going to put a tutorial together describing the whole process, from knocking out the pins to putting them back in after drilling out the ports.

 

 

**When you drive the upper pin out be ready to catch the detent and spring (they lock the gas regulator in the #1 or #2 positions) because they will fly out when you remove the punch from the hole.**

 

It helps to have someone there to hold the gun upright while you use a hammer and brass punch to drive the GB forward. I do this with the muzzle placed perpendicular on a plywood block on a concrete floor. It also helps a lot to squirt penetrating oil into the pin holes and around the GB / Bbl contact surfaces and tap with a rubber mallet to help it work in.

 

Wrap painter's tape around the bbl (single layered) to keep from scratching it with the GB when it comes off. I just use a few widths and a big rubber band to stop it there.

Use a good sized hammer and brass punch. (It's very important to use a punch made of something softer than steel! A hardwood block will also work if it's not on too tight). A tapered punch like this one will let you get in for a good bite on the flat surface between the gas tube and bbl. You can also alternate and hit against the mounting lug on the bottom of the GB.

 

(**DISCLAIMER** DO THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK! I'M ONLY SHOWING HOW I DID MINE. THE CORRECT WAY TO DO THIS IS WITRH A HYDROLIC PRESS. THE STEEL IS VERY THIN WHERE THE GB FITS AROUND THE BBL. IT MAY BE POSSIBLE TO CRACK THIS SPOT. I'VE DONE IT EXACTLY THIS WAY WITH THESE EXACT TOOLS AND WORKING SURFACES AND HAVE HAD SUCCESS WITHOUT DAMAGE TO THE GB OR BBL. TRY IT AT YOUR OWN RISK)

 

 

 

With the GB moved forward you can now remove the gas tube (after removing the bolt carrier) and use a hardwood block to tap the GB the rest of the way off.

 

 

 

There ya go. I'll put the rest up soon.

[kmoore 3]

Cobra, we definitely don't pay you enough as mod/expert!!!

 

Nice pics, and thx.

[lelandeod 179]

Thanks for the pics, Cobra!

I enjoy the tutorials and photos make it all the more fun.

[sourceofuncertainty 0]

Kudos to Cobra!

[sourceofuncertainty 0]

Here's another related question.

 

Tony recommends 4 gas port holes of .076" diameter. This equates to 1.9304mm, or a "#48" drill bit according to a google search.

 

I have a big set of cheapo Harbor Freight drill bits that includes this size, but I'm wondering if the bit needs to be anything special (e.g. - titanium, cobalt) to drill the holes.

 

If a harder bit is needed, can anyone suggest a brand and/or part #?

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Allow me to save you some time and aggravation. You are correct about the #48 bit being .076". On this one I'm workng on now I just got back from the range test firing it for the second time. I drilled the 4th port to .075 (3/64") because that's all I had in my small set of cobalt bits. And BTW you need to get a cobalt bit, it's the best for the money and will go thru it fine if you go slow and use some wax or cutting oil. I enlarged the other three holes too and rocked them all back some like Tony suggested. I put it all back together yesterday and test fired it with el cheapo Winchester Universal #8 shot. Instead of short stroking and shoving the empties back in the chamber, without even reaching the ejector, this time it stovepiped every round out of 5. ARGGGhhhh!!!!!

So it was back to the shop for some more attention. I emailed Tony and he said I should try going up to .086 (#44) and trying again. Well just to check my other old trick, I went back out today and swapped the recoil spring with the one from my S-20 again. It's a Colt 1911 .041" recoil spring. I also swapped the hammer out for my old Saiga hammer just to see how it would work. I honestly think my polished G-2 hammer has much less resisitance though.

I loaded up a 5 rd mag with 3 of the same Winchester Universals and 2 Federal #8s just in case they were any better.

 

She cycled all of them no prob! I'm glad I checked the lighter spring before doing all that work again.

 

Now that's my gun with an 18" barrel.

 

If I were you with that 17"er, I would go up at least one or two more sizes with your ports and maybe more than that.

Tony told me he had had to go to open them up to .113" to get the the 17" guns with 3 ports to run. That's a #33 drill bit.

 

 

Now he's talking about 3 ports remember. If you add a fourth you prolly won't need to go that big. YMMV

 

I'm going to try and find time to post some more pics of the drilling operation if I can get to it today.

 

Good luck.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Ok here are some pics of me drilling out the ports on this problem Saiga of mine.

 

First use a center punch to mark where your hole will go .

 

Then I enlarged the two of the other three holes and angled them back a little.

 

Start the 4th hole perpendicular so the bit wont walk.

 

Once you have a starter hole you can angle it and start drilling slowly.

 

This pic shows the angle I drilled them to. Notice the closer toothpick is angled farther forward. I had not yet redrilled that one.

 

DONE

 

Cleaned up the holes with the dremel and polishing wheel and cleaned out the bore with a bronze brush.

[mccumber1916 1]

lol shannon... you kill a troll to get that battle axe?