hmmm.... is it possible to sabot a .50 api in 12 ga.

[rooflok 0]

I've been looking at the auto assault 12 ga. with the frag 12 ammo in the periodicals. With the availability of 10 round AGP mags and the 20 rd drums that are forthcoming I can't help but think that the saiga 12 is right there for the regular joe.

 

My question is what about a poor man's frag-12? (From the standpoint of anti vehicle/ heavy penetration), I've considered existing options and wondered if it would be possible to improve upon currently available slugs by utilizing a saboted AP or API .50 cal bmg projectile with an attached base for stabilization?

 

My questions are:

 

Do you think this projectile would outperform off the shelf slugs for penetration in hard materials?

 

Do you think the lower velocity a roughly 1.5 oz 12 ga. projectile would achieve would still be quick enough to ignite the incendiary compound in an API projectile?

 

Constructive thoughts please.

 

For the trolls ---- I have googled it, searched the forum, and yes, obviously, I am an idiot.

 

RedOgre

[BobAsh 582]

Well, it's possible that penetration into a hard surface could be increased, since an FMJ or even tungsten AP bullet could be used, I suppose.

 

Incendiary is not ignited by the projectile's velocity but rather by impact.

[keyser223 0]

The problem in the saiga application would be the lack of a rifled barrel. Unless you came up with a way of rifling the slug your considering, it would be practically useless.

[rooflok 0]

Well, it's possible that penetration into a hard surface could be increased, since an FMJ or even tungsten AP bullet could be used, I suppose.

 

Incendiary is not ignited by the projectile's velocity but rather by impact.

 

Understood, but the velocity would probably be a 1/3 or less of the BMG round at the muzzle. I am sure there is a minimum velocity required to detonate the incendiary (at impact) - otherwise it would ignite when you dropped it.

 

Redogre

[rooflok 0]

The problem in the saiga application would be the lack of a rifled barrel. Unless you came up with a way of rifling the slug your considering, it would be practically useless.

 

 

The thought was that with the addition a a fin stabilized base you could turn the projectile into a "dart" negating the necessity for rifling. Admittedly it wouldn't be terribly accurate, but then again doors and vehicles are large.

 

Redogre

[Havoc308 3]

Most .50 cal bullets weigh between 650-800 grains and there are 437.5 grains in an ounce. I don't know if I'd want to pull the trigger on a slug weighing 1 3/4 oz!!!!

[rooflok 0]

Most .50 cal bullets weigh between 650-800 grains and there are 437.5 grains in an ounce. I don't know if I'd want to pull the trigger on a slug weighing 1 3/4 oz!!!!

 

 

The weight would be about 1.5 oz for an API projectile - you are correct , this wouldn't be for the faint of heart!!!

 

Redogre

[MikeD 541]

Most .50 cal bullets weigh between 650-800 grains and there are 437.5 grains in an ounce. I don't know if I'd want to pull the trigger on a slug weighing 1 3/4 oz!!!!

 

 

The weight would be about 1.5 oz for an API projectile - you are correct , this wouldn't be for the faint of heart!!!

 

Redogre

It would be fine. There are 3inch turkey loads with 2 oz of shot in them. Also about if the velocity would cause a great enough force at impact is a good question. Maybe you could calculate the effective range of the api out of a 50 cal and see what the velocity is at the farthest distance. You would know it needs to be going at least that fast. Their has to be specs somewhere on them. Then maybe you could check barrel velocity of a 2 oz turkey load and calculate what it might be at certain distances by comparing velocity drop of other lighter slugs to get an idea of what the velocity might be. It would be hard to tell for sure without actually testing first hand.

 

The stabilized fins would be a great idea. The give the frag-12 rounds a effective range out to 200 yards and they aren't half has aerodynamic as a 50 cal round. I would say the modded 50cal would have a farther effective range with the right fins. You should give it a run.

[cpileri 0]

Most .50 cal bullets weigh between 650-800 grains and there are 437.5 grains in an ounce. I don't know if I'd want to pull the trigger on a slug weighing 1 3/4 oz!!!!

 

 

The weight would be about 1.5 oz for an API projectile - you are correct , this wouldn't be for the faint of heart!!!

 

Redogre

It would be fine. There are 3inch turkey loads with 2 oz of shot in them. Also about if the velocity would cause a great enough force at impact is a good question. Maybe you could calculate the effective range of the api out of a 50 cal and see what the velocity is at the farthest distance. You would know it needs to be going at least that fast. Their has to be specs somewhere on them. Then maybe you could check barrel velocity of a 2 oz turkey load and calculate what it might be at certain distances by comparing velocity drop of other lighter slugs to get an idea of what the velocity might be. It would be hard to tell for sure without actually testing first hand.

 

The stabilized fins would be a great idea. The give the frag-12 rounds a effective range out to 200 yards and they aren't half has aerodynamic as a 50 cal round. I would say the modded 50cal would have a farther effective range with the right fins. You should give it a run.

 

hmmm... thinkinng out loud here;

Remington makes a buffered nitro mag 3-inch 12ga with 1+7/8 oz (~792grains) of shot, at 1210 fps at the muzzle. So we have a shell that can take the 622.5gr API plus the ...what?... 25grains of sabot and fins??? without going over pressure (probably).

 

So now, will it ignite? lets check velocity first.

The standard M8 load is 2910fps at 78feet from the muzzle. ( http://www.kmike.com/Ammo/tm%2043-0001-27.pdf , page 74) it slows down to 1210 fps at a range of 1712 yards!! Unfortunately, it doesnt provide details of effective boom range. But if we scroll down to the M48A1 and M48A2 Spotter tracer 'practice' rounds , we see they list an effective range against a steel plate (a hard target?) at 175 yards. (is that all? seems kinda short...) These shorty 50 cal cartridges fly at 1745fps at 78 feet from the muzzle, which equals 1771 at the muzzle if we use a BC of 0.71. So these still ignite on "hard or armored" targets at 175 yards, where they are flying at 1608fps. So....

 

So far, doesn't look too good for the 12ga sabot-50.

 

Well, lets see. the REAL M8 API has an effective range of say 1000yds (personally witnessed, but would love to find a reference) for ignition. Startinng at 2910 at 78ft from the muzzle (2984 at the muzzle), the real M8 is still going 1782 fps at 1000yds. Still too fast to compare to a sedate 1200fps from the 12ga.

 

No help there.

 

Fired from a 12ga, can one reasonably expect an effective detonation? Or will the M8 load still detonate at 1712 yards?

 

http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculations/calculations.html

http://www.subguns.com/biggerhammer/manual...m43-0001-27.pdf

 

Next question: does it need to fly straight and impact point first in order to ignite? i haven't the foggiest, and have no means to test besides whacking the side of one with a hammer- which I am not going to do. I'll leave that to the REAL men.

 

Hope this adds some info.

Happy 4th!

C-

[cpileri 0]

Follow up;

 

OK, according to the Army Board Study Guide, the maximum effective range against materiel in an area of effect shot (as opposed to an aimed single shot) is 1800 meters.

 

That seems to me that the API is still effective in penetrating lightly armored targets and igniting any flammable substance at 1800 meters- which is below our 1712 meter threshold for being 1200 fps.

 

So, it seems that out of a 12ga, it will be going fast enough.

 

Now, will it fly straight and does it even have to do so? Well, the way the API is supposed to work, it hits armor (penetrating 8mm at 1200 yds, for example) and the jacket peels off exposing the incendiary which is flung away from the projectile and impacts any surface nearby, igniting it if it is flammable. So that assumes it hits point-first.

 

but does it HAVE to hit point first? if it hits sideways but still cracks the jacket and exposes the I compound, will it ignite? I still don't know.

 

Maybe some gutsy guy will set one up and shoot a 22LR at it (approx 1200fps, right?)- JUST KIDDING!

 

C-

Edited July 6, 2007 by cpileri

[rooflok 0]

Thanks for the extensive research and thought you put into this. I think this project is viable, whether it would be profitable or not is questionable. But I would love a few thousand rounds of these myself at the very least.

 

I have located someone who has already made a sabot of similiar nature.

 

http://www.sauvestre.com/jpeg/image19.jpg

 

Any input on attachment methods for attaching the finned base to the .50 projectile?

 

I've considered cutting a recess around the base of the projectile via a lathe and forming the finned base to have a snap on interface. This would be expensive (labor intensive) and I am not sure the finned base would stay attached.

 

Hi-strength epoxy ( or smething similiar that would be compatible with the sabot material) - Just sounds... unprofesional though...

 

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Redogre

[MikeD 541]

Thanks for the extensive research and thought you put into this. I think this project is viable, whether it would be profitable or not is questionable. But I would love a few thousand rounds of these myself at the very least.

 

I have located someone who has already made a sabot of similiar nature.

 

http://www.sauvestre.com/jpeg/image19.jpg

 

Any input on attachment methods for attaching the finned base to the .50 projectile?

 

I've considered cutting a recess around the base of the projectile via a lathe and forming the finned base to have a snap on interface. This would be expensive (labor intensive) and I am not sure the finned base would stay attached.

 

Hi-strength epoxy ( or smething similiar that would be compatible with the sabot material) - Just sounds... unprofesional though...

 

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Redogre

Couldn't you crimp the fin base on?

[SOPMOD 254]

I've been looking at the auto assault 12 ga. with the frag 12 ammo in the periodicals. With the availability of 10 round AGP mags and the 20 rd drums that are forthcoming I can't help but think that the saiga 12 is right there for the regular joe.

 

My question is what about a poor man's frag-12? (From the standpoint of anti vehicle/ heavy penetration), I've considered existing options and wondered if it would be possible to improve upon currently available slugs by utilizing a saboted AP or API .50 cal bmg projectile with an attached base for stabilization?

 

My questions are:

 

Do you think this projectile would outperform off the shelf slugs for penetration in hard materials?

 

Do you think the lower velocity a roughly 1.5 oz 12 ga. projectile would achieve would still be quick enough to ignite the incendiary compound in an API projectile?

 

Constructive thoughts please.

 

For the trolls ---- I have googled it, searched the forum, and yes, obviously, I am an idiot.

 

RedOgre

 

 

It won't stabilize without adding a felt tail or fins for drag since there is not rifling and it's tail heavy.Maybe a streamer type tail would do the trick?

[rooflok 0]

I've been looking at the auto assault 12 ga. with the frag 12 ammo in the periodicals. With the availability of 10 round AGP mags and the 20 rd drums that are forthcoming I can't help but think that the saiga 12 is right there for the regular joe.

 

My question is what about a poor man's frag-12? (From the standpoint of anti vehicle/ heavy penetration), I've considered existing options and wondered if it would be possible to improve upon currently available slugs by utilizing a saboted AP or API .50 cal bmg projectile with an attached base for stabilization?

 

My questions are:

 

Do you think this projectile would outperform off the shelf slugs for penetration in hard materials?

 

Do you think the lower velocity a roughly 1.5 oz 12 ga. projectile would achieve would still be quick enough to ignite the incendiary compound in an API projectile?

 

Constructive thoughts please.

 

For the trolls ---- I have googled it, searched the forum, and yes, obviously, I am an idiot.

 

RedOgre

 

 

It won't stabilize without adding a felt tail or fins for drag since there is not rifling and it's tail heavy.Maybe a streamer type tail would do the trick?

 

 

Yep, it would require a finned base to be added - you can see a picture of the design I have suggested at

 

http://www.sauvestre.com/jpeg/image19.jpg

 

 

Thanks

 

Redogre

[MikeD 541]

I've been looking at the auto assault 12 ga. with the frag 12 ammo in the periodicals. With the availability of 10 round AGP mags and the 20 rd drums that are forthcoming I can't help but think that the saiga 12 is right there for the regular joe.

 

My question is what about a poor man's frag-12? (From the standpoint of anti vehicle/ heavy penetration), I've considered existing options and wondered if it would be possible to improve upon currently available slugs by utilizing a saboted AP or API .50 cal bmg projectile with an attached base for stabilization?

 

My questions are:

 

Do you think this projectile would outperform off the shelf slugs for penetration in hard materials?

 

Do you think the lower velocity a roughly 1.5 oz 12 ga. projectile would achieve would still be quick enough to ignite the incendiary compound in an API projectile?

 

Constructive thoughts please.

 

For the trolls ---- I have googled it, searched the forum, and yes, obviously, I am an idiot.

 

RedOgre

 

 

It won't stabilize without adding a felt tail or fins for drag since there is not rifling and it's tail heavy.Maybe a streamer type tail would do the trick?

I have never messed with any unloaded .50bmg projectiles. But maybe some of the lead could be removed from the tail of the bullet. Kind of like how the homemade AP 5.7x28 is made out of .223 steel core. Seems like if it can be easily done it would help in a couple areas. It would make it nose heavy so the fins worked better and reduce the weight of the round to increase velocity giving it a better chance of igniting the incendiary. The lead could me replaced with a light plastic filler or might could serve as a chamber to hold the fin assembly in place.

[rooflok 0]

I have never messed with any unloaded .50bmg projectiles. But maybe some of the lead could be removed from the tail of the bullet. Kind of like how the homemade AP 5.7x28 is made out of .223 steel core. Seems like if it can be easily done it would help in a couple areas. It would make it nose heavy so the fins worked better and reduce the weight of the round to increase velocity giving it a better chance of igniting the incendiary. The lead could me replaced with a light plastic filler or might could serve as a chamber to hold the fin assembly in place.

 

I have found one projectile that is available that is very close to what you are talking about. It is a special tracer projectile without the tracer material. Appears to be ball, or just mild steel inside according to the decription. Additionally look at the squared off end projecting out of the base of the projectile.......Hmmmmm......

 

think of the attachment possibilities, perhaps a small forging operation to form the base into longer fins, just spot welding some stamped steel fins on ....

 

 

 

Only problem is no incendiary, possibly might not penetrate as well ap, but then again at the lower velocities a mild steel center might be effective. Might just have to test some.

 

Redogre

[SOPMOD 254]

 

These are examples of the type of stabilization and weight balance are required when there is no rifling to impart centrifugal stabilization.

Edited July 9, 2007 by SOPMOD

[rooflok 0]

The top picture of yours is the FRAG-12 I am trying to simulate somewhat - on the cheap - The machined unit is probably $50 each (plus filled with too much explosive to be legal)

 

the suggestion I had, if you read my posts above, was a finned base like this:

 

 

and the sabot that encases the whole projectile and base.

 

 

 

Redogre

[rooflok 0]

Ok, well, Apparently it isn't possible as the length of an unmodified .50 api projectile is 2.31 inches and the 2 3/4" shotgun shell length in the picture is actually 2.3"!!! The 2 3/4" designation must be with the empty shell uncrimped.

 

 

 

 

This isn't going to be as easy as I hoped...

 

But I'm not giving up.

 

Redogre

[cpileri 0]

It can be loaded with the projo stickinng out past the case mouth for use in single shot /double barrel shotguns.

 

As for a self-loading mechanism, it would have to accept a 3.5" shell and then what kind of powder charge could be behind it?

C-

[MikeD 541]

Ok, well, Apparently it isn't possible as the length of an unmodified .50 api projectile is 2.31 inches and the 2 3/4" shotgun shell length in the picture is actually 2.3"!!! The 2 3/4" designation must be with the empty shell uncrimped.

 

 

 

 

This isn't going to be as easy as I hoped...

 

But I'm not giving up.

 

Redogre

Maybe if you cut the bullet at the notch and used a roll crimped 3inch mag instead of the 2 3/4. Russian wolf roll crimped are 70mm or 2.5 inch. I think the Russian roll crimp 3inch are 76mm or around 2.75 inches. Also with the lighter weight of the cut bullet would only increase the velocity which would help assure that the incendiary round was move fast enough to ignite.

[rooflok 0]

Maybe if you cut the bullet at the notch and used a roll crimped 3inch mag instead of the 2 3/4. Russian wolf roll crimped are 70mm or 2.5 inch. I think the Russian roll crimp 3inch are 76mm or around 2.75 inches. Also with the lighter weight of the cut bullet would only increase the velocity which would help assure that the incendiary round was move fast enough to ignite.

 

exactly what I was thinking, I have purchased some Magtech brass shells @ 2.5", some unprimed 3" and 3.5" shells a roll crimper - just waiting for the bulk APIT projectiles to arrive to start cutting.

 

Also picked up proper material to turn some sabots

 

We were trying to figure out the best way to cut the projectiles with the hardened steel cores. For production I assume a water jet would perform the best. For prototyping any ideas out there? Remember there is indendiary material in there. I was going to set up a band saw and back away (far away) better to lose a 200 saw than my eyes.

 

Andy

[x5060 0]

This is a very interesting idea. I would love to see the results.

 

Perhaps you should not be so ambitious on your prototype and use a standard ball round to see if it is feasible and take some chronograph readings first to see if the equations hold up. Then, maybe we could find a diagram of the innards of the API projectile.

 

I think this is a good idea. Id love to be able to shoot a .50 projectile out of my 590A1 and eventually a Saiga 12.

[MikeD 541]

This is a very interesting idea. I would love to see the results.

 

Perhaps you should not be so ambitious on your prototype and use a standard ball round to see if it is feasible and take some chronograph readings first to see if the equations hold up. Then, maybe we could find a diagram of the innards of the API projectile.

 

I think this is a good idea. Id love to be able to shoot a .50 projectile out of my 590A1 and eventually a Saiga 12.

+1 on the prototype. I wish I knew what the inside where like for you. I do know that .223 steel core has a very small amount of steel in the front and doesn't run all the way down the tail. And people melt the lead out to make 5.7 AP out of them. I just assumed the the .50 cal was the same and backed by lead towards the tail. I have no idea of the construction of any incendiary round. With I could help more. But 1 request, please try to make it work with the 3 inch shell so we can have them in the saiga-12 What ever you do be careful with those incendiary rounds and try to get good specs before you start modding them.

[MikeD 541]

Just thought of something. The guy I know that makes the AP rounds in 5.7 makes incendiary rounds also. I am guessing he has to melt away lead or remove material in the incendiary rounds as well, like he does the AP and tracers to drop the weight. Here if a thread you can view for his contact info. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=15734 his contact info is in post 36 & 37 of the thread. He is a nice guy and can probably help you with a lot with info. Tell him I referred you to him.

[rooflok 0]

Just thought of something. The guy I know that makes the AP rounds in 5.7 makes incendiary rounds also. I am guessing he has to melt away lead or remove material in the incendiary rounds as well, like he does the AP and tracers to drop the weight. Here if a thread you can view for his contact info. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=15734 his contact info is in post 36 & 37 of the thread. He is a nice guy and can probably help you with a lot with info. Tell him I referred you to him.

 

 

I read the description and went to his website, I THINK, keywords THINK, he utilizes GI .223 rounds much in the same way I am proposing the use of GI .50 projectiles.

 

I will Email and ask.

 

thx

 

Andy

[MikeD 541]

Just thought of something. The guy I know that makes the AP rounds in 5.7 makes incendiary rounds also. I am guessing he has to melt away lead or remove material in the incendiary rounds as well, like he does the AP and tracers to drop the weight. Here if a thread you can view for his contact info. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=15734 his contact info is in post 36 & 37 of the thread. He is a nice guy and can probably help you with a lot with info. Tell him I referred you to him.

 

 

I read the description and went to his website, I THINK, keywords THINK, he utilizes GI .223 rounds much in the same way I am proposing the use of GI .50 projectiles.

 

I will Email and ask.

 

thx

 

Andy

That is what I was thinking. Hopefully he can fill you in a=on safety precautions when messing with incendiary rds or tracers and his process. I really hope this works out and look forward to your results. I would surely buy a crate.