Jofus 0 Posted September 28, 2004 Report Share Posted September 28, 2004 Well I guess its time for me to stop lurking, and make a few posts. I'm looking for a shotgun, and the Saiga 20 is looking pretty sweet, but my pal who is a shotgun maniac is saying a Remington 870 express is the way to go. I'm looking for home defense/deer hunting slug killin' action. Do the Saigas jam very often? Is the conversion of a shotgun to PG setup any different than the centerfire rilfes? I can't really think of any other questions, so any input would rock. I have a 7.62x39 and I cannot say enough good about it. Thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Saiga20InMyHome 0 Posted September 28, 2004 Report Share Posted September 28, 2004 I have a Mossberg 590 special purpose and a saiga 20. There are pros and cons to both. Pump shotguns are definately more mechanically reliable, but Saiga's are definately more devastating. If you stay cool under pressure and don't often panic under stress, then Saiga is the way to go. If you have problems keepin a leash on your puppy, than you may want the pump. It makes you think about what you're doing a little bit more than just pulling a trigger. This way you wont be so likely to be caught with your pants down and your mag empty in any given situation. Plus, you can have a LEGAL higher capacity with a pump than with an autoloader. (approx 9 in a pump and 6 in a saiga). Plus, pumps are more universal and accessories are more readily available. However, I have a very reliable saiga that I tricked out, and I think my first instinct would be to grab that saiga rather then that mossberg. I just enjoy being able to have quick follow-up shots in case of body armor or multiple intruders. I notice a significant difference in recoil between my saiga and my mossberg, but the moss is 12ga and the Saiga is 20ga. A sacrifice I would be willing to make for more control when control counts. You can pretty much throw about the same amount of lead, I think. I like to keep my shotguns for hunting and for home defense seperate because then you can always have that scattergun under your bed and not have to worry about if you remembered to put it back after a day of hunting when you hear glass break. In my opinion, as long as you have a reliable shotgun with a reasonable capacity, flashlight and/or laser, hi-viz sights, and an 18-inch barrel, then you'll be fine. My advice is to find a gun range or store (or a friend with a suitable collection) that lets you shoot different types of guns and see which ones suit you. All depends on the risk level in your area and personal preference I suppose. That's my two cents! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted September 28, 2004 Report Share Posted September 28, 2004 the difference between the saiga12's recoil and the moss 500's recoil is HUGE. my saiga does not jam at all. it did until it was broken in after maybe 100-150 rounds, but not once since then when it wasnt my own fault. Jofus: has your buddy ever shot a saiga shotgun? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
emclean 0 Posted September 28, 2004 Report Share Posted September 28, 2004 IMHO nothing beats a pump for home defence, every one knows the sould of a slide being racked. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jofus 0 Posted September 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2004 Thanks for such quick answers guys! Bvamp, no he hasn't...so I'm still leaning more towards a Saiga. I checked around locally, and found a Saiga 20 gauge for $199, the 12 gauge was $369 and they'd have to order it. The 20 wasn't choked though, how important is that? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TWGLADF 0 Posted September 28, 2004 Report Share Posted September 28, 2004 saiga is the way to go! got my saiga12 from cdnn for $200. got my saiga20 off of gunbroker.com for $150 with 4 mags. both are fixed full choke and the 20 gauge is deadly to small game. i can put the wad and over 50% of the shot into a coke can at 45 yards. that baby holds a tight tight pattern. the 12 gauge isn't as tight. yes, the racking of the slide of a pump is intimidating, but the racking of an ak bolt is also intimidating as well. and just think, at the price of that 870, you can almost buy 2 saigas. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Saiga20InMyHome 0 Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 See what I don't understand is, who cares about racking anything? Keep that sucker chambered and ready to go! Who wants to waste time racking? Those valuable split seconds could be the difference between life and death for your loved ones, ya know? Would you keep a concealed carry handgun with the chamber empty, so you can rack it, just to intimidate that would-be mugger? I'm speaking as a childless home owner though. And my girlfriend is educated about guns, but I guess a case could be made for safety of not having something chambered...Still, I wouldn't be the one to waste my time having to rack anything... Both guns have their pros and cons, it just comes down to personal preference in the end! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TWGLADF 0 Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 you wouldn't think it, but a few years ago i actually did thwart a couple would be burglars by "racking" the bolt on my ak. they were trying to get into the window. all i did was rack the bolt and they split instantly. i could have waited until they got inside but that could have gotten ugly. see, in la. if they don't have a lethal weapon and your life is not in fatal danger, you shoot and you are a murderer. well, i never got burguled and i'm not in prison either. seems that "racking" did come in handy. trust me, i was definately prepared to shoot if required. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 with the bolt hold-open, if you leave it loaded and with the bolt back, one only has to whack the butt on the floor while picking up the thing to let someone know something bad is about to happen.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
emclean 0 Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 See what I don't understand is, who cares about racking anything? i would rather scare off the intruder, with out seeing them, also in court (assuming you have to shoot) it is easer to defend that you gave a warning. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jofus 0 Posted September 29, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 Lol, didn't realize the controversy this would stir. Think I'm gonna go with the Saiga, I figure roaring a few curses while I lock n load should help with the "scaring" portion of our program. Granted those curses will be interlaced with "get out of my house, etc". I'm not sure how regulated swears are here, but after 6 yrs in the Army...I'm a pro swearer . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Saiga20InMyHome 0 Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 See, I'd rather get the guy, because he could come back when i'm not home and my girlfriend is, or with a gun of his own, or friends with guns, etc...Where I live, it's easier to prove self defense, I guess...I feel that if a guy is crazy enough to break into an unknown house, then he is crazy enough to hurt me or my loved ones. Just because he doesnt have a weapon in his hand comin thru the window, doesnt mean he isnt going to grab a weapon of opportunity, i.e. fireplace poker, kitchen knife, tools, etc. A fishing and hunting buddy of mine that happens to be the deputy prosecutor of my county agrees with me..."an intruder is an intruder" he says. I don't want to go whacking my gun on the floor when it's loaded...haha Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted October 1, 2004 Report Share Posted October 1, 2004 use a small bag of ink and mark them for a warning and call the cops Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tomac 0 Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 It depends... I've been using AKs for over 15yrs and can do the AK manual at arms in my sleep, I'm that familiar with it. For me the Saiga makes more sense because the manual at arms is identical to my AKs so there's nothing new to learn and muscle memory/training are the same (less likely to screw up under stress and short-stroke or some other potentially fatal error). On the other hand, my best friend is a cop who's used a Remington 870 for decades. For him it makes sense to use a Remington 870 (or something similar) because that's what *he's* used to, has trained with and is most familiar with. He's more likely to screw up with the Saiga under stress (although he's familiar with and owns an AK) as I'm more likely to screw up with a pump (although I've owned a number of them through the years). Tomac Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Saiga20InMyHome: why wouldnt you? you do pull the bolt back and let it go when you load it right? you are doing the same thing from an open bolt by whacking it on the ground. I guess the only time one would need to do this is if you are in a 3 gun competition and are switching back and forth between weapons, and have your bolt open on the shotgun. Just a habit I have, and Ive never had the gun go off on me. unlike AR15's. I wont do that with an AR15 or any other gun with a lighter trigger pull, because the slam, even if its a light one, might pull the trigger and cause a slam fire. Never happened in the 500 times ive chambered my s12, and I dont expect it will ever. the trigger pull is too long and too heavy in my opinion. Im not telling anyone its a better method really, just an alternative method if the chance should present itself. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Saiga20InMyHome 0 Posted January 27, 2005 Report Share Posted January 27, 2005 Why take chances with a loaded firearm? What happens the one time it does go off? Or what happens if some guy read your suggestion and did that in his apartment or something and shot through his ceiling and killed somebody upstairs? I would never suggest anybody do anything like that ever. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tomac 0 Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 Why take chances with a loaded firearm? What happens the one time it does go off? Or what happens if some guy read your suggestion and did that in his apartment or something and shot through his ceiling and killed somebody upstairs? I would never suggest anybody do anything like that ever. 1) A firearm is *always* treated as though it is loaded. 2) *You* are the final and ultimate "safety" on any firearm. An idiot w/a gun is dangerous no matter how many mechanical safety devices abound and a trained & responsible person w/a gun is "safe" even if the gun lacks any mechanical safety. 3) A loaded gun (barring mechanical defect/failure) can not and will not go off on it's own accord unless someone pulls the trigger. I've been using firearms responsibly for nearly 40yrs. My nightstand .45 is always in Condition One (rd in the chamber, hammer back, safety on). My CCW Beretta Alleycat is always in Condition Two (rd in the chamber, hammer down, safety off) as the Beretta is DA/SA and doesn't need to be cocked for the first shot. My Saiga-12 for HD is also kept in Condition One. I've never experienced a ND and have no fear that one of my loaded guns will "go off" on its own. If my life should be threatened and I feel the need for a firearm to protect my life then I want to be able to put it into action as quickly as possible with the least amount of preparation. If someone cannot handle a firearm safely/responsibly then they shouldn't have a firearm in the first place regardless of whether it's kept loaded or not. My $.02 worth... Tomac Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Saiga20InMyHome 0 Posted February 1, 2005 Report Share Posted February 1, 2005 Amen tomac! I keep my saiga20 chambered at all times. Not only are you ready to go at a moments notice without having to "whack your gun on the floor," but you are also afforded that extra 6th round should you need it. I don't fear that any of my guns will go off on their own, but if I pick it up and whack the butt on something, it will no longer be "going off on its own" but it could possibly go off because it suffered an unreasonable impact. For all you gun owners out there that say dropping a gun won't make it go off::: My uncle was killed when his neighbor (a 15 year officer and army veteran) dropped his loaded shotgun after they had an argument, witnessed by my aunt and my cousins. He is proof positive that irresponsible handling of firearms causes accidents. I don't care how many years of experience one has. Accidents happen. Besides, operating the bolt in such a manner will do damage to your BHO by rounding it out. Metal on metal is a bad thing. A BHO was not meant to take such punishment. I've seen handgun slides rounded out because guys use their slide stop lever to chamber the first round in an empty gun. If it can happen to tennifer slides, then it would definately happen to a saiga BHO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gunner556 0 Posted February 1, 2005 Report Share Posted February 1, 2005 To tomac. Just a note. Your berretta is in Condition 1. The .45 is condition 2 if its loaded and at half cock. Love the Saiga-12. I bought one because I was cranking 50-100 rounds a week as a Navy instructor through a Mossberg 500. I just got tired of racking the slide. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tomac 0 Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 To tomac. Just a note. Your berretta is in Condition 1. The .45 is condition 2 if its loaded and at half cock. Sorry, you're wrong. My .45 is Condition 1: "Cocked & Locked". My Beretta is Condition 2: Round in the chamber & hammer down. Check here: http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm Tomac Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Saiga20InMyHome 0 Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Sorry gunner, but I'm with tomac on this one. He's right... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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