MikeD 541 Posted July 24, 2007 Report Share Posted July 24, 2007 I have looked into the restricted states and areas. Locals, please let me know if I'm missing something. Or if you know a good link to look at the laws. I found one here and it seems pretty good, but I thought there was more. http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/NoHiCapChemSpray.pdf I also wanted to let you know that I plan to offer the drum in the restricted areas as well. Just not in a full 20rd capacity. Your area will determine your capacity. Please don't think that the modifications I make are going to be "easily convertible" I'm sure that someone could convert it back, but it won't be a easy task. Just want to make that clear. Here is the way I see it, The areas restricted in 20rd capacity: States: New York, New Jersey, California, and Massachusetts (in Massachusetts you can have 20rds with a class A or B carry permit) Areas: Aurora, IL - Chicago, IL - Franklin Park, IL - Oak Park, IL To make it legal in the restricted areas the capacity will be as followed.... States limits: New York (10rd), New Jersey(15rd), California(10rd), and Massachusetts(5rd) Areas: Aurora, IL (15rd) - Chicago, IL (12rd) - Franklin Park, IL (16rd) - Oak Park, IL (10rd) I know a lot of people aren't going to want a 5 or 10rd drum that should have been able to hold 20 but figured I would give people a legal solution if they felt it was worth it. Also I will have to charge around $10 more for the reduced capacity mag. Please give your thoughts on this. Especially if you know of something I am missing. I plan to confirm all this as well. But if someone could help me would be great!! Thanks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 Would probably not be cost effective, but if a 10 or 15rd drum were more compact than the 20rd, it would have a redeeming advantage, and not just in restricted areas. I'm someone who looks for redeeming advantages of neutered configurations. Taking up less space is the only real advantage of a lower capacity mag. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted July 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 I wouldn't be able to shrink the entire thing without major expense. I think it would be unlikely to recoup really ( in any reasonable time ). I just figured a few might would want one (especially in the more than 10rds allowed areas). Also like how Kahr was selling 10rd drums in a 50rd body for the Thompsons', for people that felt the look was worth it. It could serve as a little extra intimidation in a self defense situation as well. If someone ever pulled a Thompson with a drum on it, I wouldn't question if it had 10rds or 50rds in it. Just some thought. Hopefully now anyone that wants a drum in any area can have one even if it is restricted capacity. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted July 26, 2007 Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 in new york, it further cannot be a rotary magazine in a shotgun...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted July 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 in new york, it further cannot be a rotary magazine in a shotgun...... I'm going to have to get with a lawyer that specializes in firearms!! Anybody know one, think the NRA could help me or would I be wasting my time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ArcFault 4 Posted July 26, 2007 Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 NRA or GOA can probably help, but they will probably offer a disclaimer to the effect that it is your ass if they are wrong. Still worth a shot though. BTW, I think CT may be a little hazy on this too. We have an AWB that reads like the old federal one and there are capacity restrictions on shotties, but its vague. It's not what the law says so much as what it doesn't say. By my interpretation one could use your drum on an unconverted S12, but to my knowledge this hasn't been tested in the courts. Even the AGP mags are questionable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted July 26, 2007 Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 join and inquire. they should be able to help. I actually JUST joined today, with the logic that the NRA are our only friends out there outside of groups such as this forum. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted July 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 in new york, it further cannot be a rotary magazine in a shotgun...... I just read New York's gun laws and this is what I found. The only mention of a rotary magazine was actually mentioned as , a firearm or cloned shotgun that has a revolving cylinder such as the streetsweeper and striker-12 was illegal in the state. The saiga doesn't take a revolving cylinder and the drum itself isn't a revolving cylinder, but is a detachable magazine. Actually the saiga with a 10rd stick or 10rd drum is legal in the entire state (except the city of Rochester) as long as the saiga is in the factory configuration. (In the city of Rochester it would be legal to own a saiga with a 5rd stick or drum mag, or own a mag of between 6 to 10rd capacity for the saiga as long as you didn't own a saiga.) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted July 26, 2007 Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 wanna pay my court fees when the DA disagrees and reads the laws THE OTHER way? I already have a serious lawsuit Im considering that I would need a lot of money to pursue as it is, so LET ME KNOW. I know I know. but still. thats how they are here. we can read it one way, and they can cite all this other crap and references to say the laws are inclusive and are interelated. the mag rotates, thats that, is how they will see it. I welcome you to pay someone to pursue the matter. new york's state motto should be "the fuck you over state". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted July 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 NRA or GOA can probably help, but they will probably offer a disclaimer to the effect that it is your ass if they are wrong. Still worth a shot though. BTW, I think CT may be a little hazy on this too. We have an AWB that reads like the old federal one and there are capacity restrictions on shotties, but its vague. It's not what the law says so much as what it doesn't say. By my interpretation one could use your drum on an unconverted S12, but to my knowledge this hasn't been tested in the courts. Even the AGP mags are questionable. The way I read CT is pretty much the same as you said. As long as it is in the factory configuration you are good to go. If it isn't in the factory configuration it is illegal reguardless of capacity. And also in your law it says parts that could be quickly installed like an ar type telescoping stock would be enough to get you with an assualt weapon charge even if it was under your bed and not on the gun(keep that in mind). But as far as capacity, you could have a 100rd drum on your saiga-12 if it was in the sporter configuration. 101rds would be illegal though for you in CT. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
748 0 Posted July 26, 2007 Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 If you want to move some place where "the right to bear arms shall never be questioned" Maine is for you. I have a Maine consealed weapon licence, its not a like a CHP where you can only have a "hand gun". In Maine an 8'' barreled s-12 with a 20 round drum could be your weapon . Well maybe not a 20 rounder, that would be hind of hard to hide, a stick mag would be a little more realistic. One of my next guns will be a shot gun (well an AOW) that fits in the arm rest of my camaro . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted July 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 If you want to move some place where "the right to bear arms shall never be questioned" Maine is for you.I have a Maine consealed weapon licence, its not a like a CHP where you can only have a "hand gun". In Maine an 8'' barreled s-12 with a 20 round drum could be your weapon . Well maybe not a 20 rounder, that would be hind of hard to hide, a stick mag would be a little more realistic. One of my next guns will be a shot gun (well an AOW) that fits in the arm rest of my camaro . That's great, wish it was like that everywhere. About the 20rder being hard to hide, maybe I'll design a beltfed 12ga in the future and you could fold the rds up nice and neat in a specialy designed jacket. It could be your belt-feeding leather jacket!! Now that would be sweet! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Pate 478 Posted July 27, 2007 Report Share Posted July 27, 2007 Here we go with the belt-feed again! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted July 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2007 Here we go with the belt-feed again! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EdgarM 0 Posted July 28, 2007 Report Share Posted July 28, 2007 Mike, I'm very curious to see what you can come up with for NJ. From what I can come up with, just from conversations with the guys at my local shop, only 6 rounds max in a semi-auto shotgun. This is why I've kept with the stock 5 rndrs for my S-12s. I'd love to pick up a few 10 rnd stick mags and at least one of your 15 rnd drums. Keep us posted. EdgarM Quote Link to post Share on other sites
uzitiger 193 Posted July 28, 2007 Report Share Posted July 28, 2007 NRA or GOA can probably help, but they will probably offer a disclaimer to the effect that it is your ass if they are wrong. Still worth a shot though. BTW, I think CT may be a little hazy on this too. We have an AWB that reads like the old federal one and there are capacity restrictions on shotties, but its vague. It's not what the law says so much as what it doesn't say. By my interpretation one could use your drum on an unconverted S12, but to my knowledge this hasn't been tested in the courts. Even the AGP mags are questionable. JPFO says any restriction on firearms violates the Second Amendment. I just got JPFO's movie: The Gang which exposes the BATFE's Gestapo tactics and harassment of gun owners and dealers. Every gun owner needs to see this movie which the BATFE doesn't want you to see because it exposes the way the BATFE wrongly puts gun owners in jail. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted July 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2007 Mike, I'm very curious to see what you can come up with for NJ. From what I can come up with, just from conversations with the guys at my local shop, only 6 rounds max in a semi-auto shotgun. This is why I've kept with the stock 5 rndrs for my S-12s. I'd love to pick up a few 10 rnd stick mags and at least one of your 15 rnd drums. Keep us posted. EdgarM I have done some reading into New Jersey laws. It does say that the FIREARM, if it is a semi-auto shotgun that has a magazine capacity of more than 6 rds is considered an assault weapon. Are all firearms classified as assault weapons illegal in New Jersey? Is there a legal way to own an assault weapon in the state? If you can legally own as assault weapon in New Jersey then it would be legal to own a Saiga-12 with mags over 6rds. Because it would just be an assault weapon. But if all assault weapons are illegal than it does look like your saiga itself would be illegal to own if you have a mag over 6rd capacity, but not the mag itself. I couldn't really find the answer to if assault weapons are illegal in New Jersey. Please let me know the answer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EdgarM 0 Posted July 30, 2007 Report Share Posted July 30, 2007 Sorry for the slow response Mike. It is illegal in the state of NJ to own an "assault weapon". They have a list of items that constitutes an "assault weapon" and it is pretty rediculous. For semi-autos, flash hiders are a no-no and any other muzzle device must be permenantly affixed, ie. welded or pinned. Bayonet lugs, another banned item. Collapsable or folding stocks must be pinned, welded or otherwise permenantly fixed open or fully extended. Chinese SKS's sit on my local shops rack with bayonets removed next to Yugo SKS's with bayonets intact... I have been told that any alterations to a stock weapon, other than bolt-on after-market items, is also illegal, ie. the pistol grip mod on a Saiga. The laws are so murky, that last year, when I had a customer who was an attorney who worked on several gun issues for clients, wouldn't take my money when I offered to pay him to clarify things for me. He said that anything he came up with would have a "don't quote me" clause. Big help that would be. I'm obviously no help for you, but be careful here and do your homework on NJ. I would love to have things spelled ou for me and if it was legal, I would certainly be one of your customers. Edgar P.S. Oh...and, don't quote me... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted July 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2007 Sorry for the slow response Mike. It is illegal in the state of NJ to own an "assault weapon". They have a list of items that constitutes an "assault weapon" and it is pretty rediculous. For semi-autos, flash hiders are a no-no and any other muzzle device must be permenantly affixed, ie. welded or pinned. Bayonet lugs, another banned item. Collapsable or folding stocks must be pinned, welded or otherwise permenantly fixed open or fully extended. Chinese SKS's sit on my local shops rack with bayonets removed next to Yugo SKS's with bayonets intact... I have been told that any alterations to a stock weapon, other than bolt-on after-market items, is also illegal, ie. the pistol grip mod on a Saiga. The laws are so murky, that last year, when I had a customer who was an attorney who worked on several gun issues for clients, wouldn't take my money when I offered to pay him to clarify things for me. He said that anything he came up with would have a "don't quote me" clause. Big help that would be. I'm obviously no help for you, but be careful here and do your homework on NJ. I would love to have things spelled ou for me and if it was legal, I would certainly be one of your customers. Edgar P.S. Oh...and, don't quote me... That sucks, While it looks like it would be legal to sell the drum in the state in a 15rd capacity, it looks like it would make your saiga an illegal assault weapon. I'm not sure what to do. It is legal for you to own the drum but I don't think if you owned a saiga, and what good would a drum do without one. I might should only sell a 6rd capacity drum to NJ. A 6rd drum would suck, I doubt many people would want one just to get 1 more rd out of a mag. I would hate to sell something to someone in the state and it be legal to sell it and legal to buy it but set the buyer up with a illegal gun at the same time if they owned or bought a saiga. Cause it sounds like it is exactly what it would do. Vague laws suck, why say a 15rd mag is legal in the state but not specify "unless" it isn't if it goes to a semi-auto shotgun? If you ask me it was the lack of foresight that something like it would be possible again. They thought they had it covered by banning all things like it at the time and thinking that federal law would never change back to a legal status for mags that hold over 10rds. And their lack of competence has once again put the burden of their sorry ass legal skills on to the people. I don't know what to do here. It seems more of a moral thing than a legal thing. Can I sell it there in 15rds? Yes. Can you buy it in NJ at 15rds? Yes. Can you legally own a saiga-12 with a 15rd mag in NJ? Strongly looks like No. I don't think I want to set people up for trouble. I think I'll have to limit the capacity to 6rds for drums shipped to NJ. It sucks but I don't want anybody to get in trouble because they can't resist ordering one a having or get a saiga for it. Here is a thought on a cheaper solution for a 6rd mag. Have somebody out of state or in state if they don't own a saiga, get some 10rd agp mags and permanently attach a capacity block on the inside of the mag. And after they are limited have them shipped or pick them up. Just make sure the block isn't going to be something that comes off easy. Ideal would be if you had to break it off. You could squeeze one more rd for the same price and a little work as a factory 5rd mag , and be legit in owning with a saiga-12. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fatboy148 4 Posted July 30, 2007 Report Share Posted July 30, 2007 in new york, it further cannot be a rotary magazine in a shotgun...... I just read New York's gun laws and this is what I found. The only mention of a rotary magazine was actually mentioned as , a firearm or cloned shotgun that has a revolving cylinder such as the streetsweeper and striker-12 was illegal in the state. The saiga doesn't take a revolving cylinder and the drum itself isn't a revolving cylinder, but is a detachable magazine. Actually the saiga with a 10rd stick or 10rd drum is legal in the entire state (except the city of Rochester) as long as the saiga is in the factory configuration. (In the city of Rochester it would be legal to own a saiga with a 5rd stick or drum mag, or own a mag of between 6 to 10rd capacity for the saiga as long as you didn't own a saiga.) Mike, The way I and more importantly Sgt. Jim Sherman at the NYS Police in Albany, NY reads the law, the Saiga is OK if you do not put a pistol grip or a folding or telescoping stock on it. The 10 round mags are as you say OK except for any local laws that may restrict them as in The City of Rochester, but your mags in excess of ten rounds I am sorry to say, I would have to question the legality of sale or possesion in NYS. If you read on in the "CURRENT" law where it speaks to "Large Capacity Ammunition Feeding Device" it is defined as or it says it: "means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device, manufactured after September Thirteenth, Nineteen Hundred Ninty-four, that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition: provided, however, that such term does not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable or operating only with .22 caliber rimfire ammunition". Sorry, but based on this information I would say not in NYS unless as you posted you put a permanent block in it to 10 rounds or less. As I told you over at WarRifles, I would be in line to purchase if they were legal here! Best Wishes Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted July 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2007 in new york, it further cannot be a rotary magazine in a shotgun...... I just read New York's gun laws and this is what I found. The only mention of a rotary magazine was actually mentioned as , a firearm or cloned shotgun that has a revolving cylinder such as the streetsweeper and striker-12 was illegal in the state. The saiga doesn't take a revolving cylinder and the drum itself isn't a revolving cylinder, but is a detachable magazine. Actually the saiga with a 10rd stick or 10rd drum is legal in the entire state (except the city of Rochester) as long as the saiga is in the factory configuration. (In the city of Rochester it would be legal to own a saiga with a 5rd stick or drum mag, or own a mag of between 6 to 10rd capacity for the saiga as long as you didn't own a saiga.) Mike, The way I and more importantly Sgt. Jim Sherman at the NYS Police in Albany, NY reads the law, the Saiga is OK if you do not put a pistol grip or a folding or telescoping stock on it. The 10 round mags are as you say OK except for any local laws that may restrict them as in The City of Rochester, but your mags in excess of ten rounds I am sorry to say, I would have to question the legality of sale or possesion in NYS. If you read on in the "CURRENT" law where it speaks to "Large Capacity Ammunition Feeding Device" it is defined as or it says it: "means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device, manufactured after September Thirteenth, Nineteen Hundred Ninty-four, that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition: provided, however, that such term does not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable or operating only with .22 caliber rimfire ammunition". Sorry, but based on this information I would say not in NYS unless as you posted you put a permanent block in it to 10 rounds or less. As I told you over at WarRifles, I would be in line to purchase if they were legal here! Best Wishes For NY I will put a mag block as well as remove the teeth off the gear behind the block. I would say most people in NY would just want to get AGP 10rd mags instaed of a much more expensive 10rd drum. I just want to leave the option open for people that would like to have one for the looks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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