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dinzag

Parts Count on Saiga Shotguns and Rifles

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Muzzle threads are not a part. As Dinzag has said in the tutorial.

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okay...i have a threaded barrel S12...can i have a US 10 rnd. mag in it legally? if not then what do i do?

The infamous 'Soupbowl' ATF letter condisers a stock Saiga shotgun to have thirteen countable parts, so using a ten round US made mag may be legal although it's treading a fine line that is open to argument. It'd be safer to substitute another US made part e.g. stock, handguard, gas piston, etc.

 

Welcome to the forum!

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I have a stupid question... How can you tell if the parts are imports or not? Once they change hands a couple of times that type of info is often lost.

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So if I want to go with the EASIEST route possible for 922R Compliance (ie. not messing with the trigger group, etc) with a Saiga 7.62x39mm, would this be ok?

 

From the Tapco catalogue: http://www.tapco.com/catalog.aspx?id=234

 

[1] 009.99 AK Slant Muzzle Brake (ak0684)

[1] 049.99 AK Folding Stock (stk06150)

[1] 010.99 AK Original Style Pistol Grip (stk06201)

[1] 029.99 AK Galil Style Handguard (stk06310)

[3] 019.99 AK 30 rnd mag (mag0637)

 

 

Thanks in advance.

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So if I want to go with the EASIEST route possible for 922R Compliance (ie. not messing with the trigger group, etc) with a Saiga 7.62x39mm, would this be ok?

 

From the Tapco catalogue: http://www.tapco.com/catalog.aspx?id=234

 

[1] 009.99 AK Slant Muzzle Brake (ak0684)

[1] 049.99 AK Folding Stock (stk06150)

[1] 010.99 AK Original Style Pistol Grip (stk06201)

[1] 029.99 AK Galil Style Handguard (stk06310)

[3] 019.99 AK 30 rnd mag (mag0637)

 

 

Thanks in advance.

 

The muzzle brake and PG aren't replacing anything, since they don't come on a Saiga in factory configuration, so they don't count towards compliance. Just make sure if you do add them, that they are US made, which obviously Tapco is. The US made stock and handguard will give you 2 compliance parts, and the US made magazine will give you 3. So yes, you would be compliant with only 9 foreign parts in your rifle. But most people, including myself, don't like to use mags to gain compliance, because as soon as you stick your factory 10 rounder back in (if you ever do), you're in violation (the same goes for any other foreign made mag, obviously).

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The muzzle brake and PG aren't replacing anything, since they don't come on a Saiga in factory configuration, so they don't count towards compliance. Just make sure if you do add them, that they are US made, which obviously Tapco is. The US made stock and handguard will give you 2 compliance parts, and the US made magazine will give you 3. So yes, you would be compliant with only 9 foreign parts in your rifle.

 

Ah thanks dude. That makes sense.

 

So what is the next 3 easiest conversion parts.....can you go from easiest first? I really don't want to do the trigger group :(

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The muzzle brake and PG aren't replacing anything, since they don't come on a Saiga in factory configuration, so they don't count towards compliance. Just make sure if you do add them, that they are US made, which obviously Tapco is. The US made stock and handguard will give you 2 compliance parts, and the US made magazine will give you 3. So yes, you would be compliant with only 9 foreign parts in your rifle.

 

Ah thanks dude. That makes sense.

 

So what is the next 3 easiest conversion parts.....can you go from easiest first? I really don't want to do the trigger group :(

 

Easiest as in the least amount of work? Pretty much what you have planned. But I highly recommend doing the conversion, and moving the FCG. It's better to not have to rely on mags for compliance anyway. It really is easy. I was all worried I would mess it up, but I did it. I only used basic hand tools and a power drill. Trust me, you won't regret doing it, and when you're done, you'll kick yourself for not doing it sooner.

 

ETA: Those vids you posted about in that other thread give a pretty good idea of how to do it. Like people have said, there's probably easier/better ways to some of the steps, but that video is great for showing just how easy it is.

Edited by 22_Shooter

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Sorry, I hacked up your post ( in my quote ), but did so to make sure I understand what I need to do for a rifle conversion.

 

3 points for the USA mag

1 point for the telescoping buttstock

1 point for the handguard w/rails

 

Thats gives me 5 US parts to 9 original parts and allows me to use the hi-cap US mags. I can now use the original factory mag installed, right? Or does the telescoping stock make it non-sporting?

 

Assuming the telescoping stock keeps it sporting, if I ADD a pistol grip, that makes it 6 U.S parts. BUT, in doing so, then the original factory mag installed would make it illegal ( because the pistol grip makes it non-sporting, thus with the factory mag, I'm losing 3 points making the part count at 3 US to 12 factory)?

 

Adding a muzzle brake...as long as it is U.S. part, It's counted as a U.S. part, right? So no worries there?

 

I understand I could do a trigger group and gain a few points. I would if they were $10, but their not. I'd rather spend the money on the stock/forearm items I want.

 

I'm not sure if adding a telescoping stock affects 922r, maybe someone else can jump in on that one. How are going to add a pistol grip without doing a conversion, and switching out the FCG? The only way I know of is another member's creative idea of attaching the pistol grip to his butt-stock on his unconverted rifle. Either way, yes, putting your factory Saiga mag back in would violate 922r, given that you have a pistol grip and only a butt-stock and hand guards for compliance (using a U.S made pistol grip doesn't exactly count towards compliance, because the rifle didn't have one to begin with).

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http://www.atf.gov/press/industry/fy05/stu...open_letter.pdf

 

 

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/building_a_firearm.pdf

Page 3 in this atf letter says less than 10 import parts

http://www.atf.gov/pub/treas_pub/assault_rifles/backgrnd.pdf

page 6

http://www.atf.gov/pub/treas_pub/assault_rifles/method.pdf

everyone save as much info as you can from A.T.F'n what did you say?

I hope they don't try to take are saigas or all are other gun for that matter, Before the ZOMBIES do come.

Then we can change any sporting questions

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http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmsimpreststamps.pdf

Page 4 and page 8. Read page 4 first. It is not much to read only 2 paragraphs.

 

YOU CAN NOT USE 10 ROUND U.S. MAGS IN A SAIGA 12 with just one(as some say evil)

Saiga is an import shot gun. it can not have more than 5 round Mag capacity and be a sporting gun or am I wrong?

 

 

I thought that the magazine capacity did not matter at all for a Saiga 12, simply because it is already an "evil feature" by virtue of it being detachable.

 

There was a list of "evil features" in the law that specified that if a shotgun had 2 (or more) of them, it was "unsporting." Among them are things like pistol grips and adjustable stocks. There are two lines that apply to magazines:

 

(d) A semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of--

(1) A folding or telescoping stock,

(2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of

the weapon,

(3) A fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds, and

(4) An ability to accept a detachable magazine.

 

Taken from: http://www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/27cfr178.html

 

The Saiga doesn't have a "fixed magazine," so that clause can't count against it. The other clause says "detachable magazine" without mention of the capacity. That said, a Saiga isn't "unsporting" until you add another evil feature other than the magazine (such as a telescoping stock or pistol grip).

 

At least, that's how I always understood it... can someone with more experience shed some light?

Edited by Bosco Baracus

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http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmsimpreststamps.pdf

Page 4 and page 8. Read page 4 first. It is not much to read only 2 paragraphs.

 

YOU CAN NOT USE 10 ROUND U.S. MAGS IN A SAIGA 12 with just one(as some say evil)

Saiga is an import shot gun. it can not have more than 5 round Mag capacity and be a sporting gun or am I wrong?

 

 

I thought that the magazine capacity did not matter at all for a Saiga 12, simply because it is already an "evil feature" by virtue of it being detachable.

 

There was a list of "evil features" in the law that specified that if a shotgun had 2 (or more) of them, it was "unsporting." Among them are things like pistol grips and adjustable stocks. There are two lines that apply to magazines:

 

(d) A semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of--

(1) A folding or telescoping stock,

(2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of

the weapon,

(3) A fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds, and

(4) An ability to accept a detachable magazine.

 

Taken from: http://www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/27cfr178.html

 

The Saiga doesn't have a "fixed magazine," so that clause can't count against it. The other clause says "detachable magazine" without mention of the capacity. That said, a Saiga isn't "unsporting" until you add another evil feature other than the magazine (such as a telescoping stock or pistol grip).

 

At least, that's how I always understood it... can someone with more experience shed some light?

 

 

That second quote you have there is from the old "Assault Weapons Ban" (which we still have in NY :cryss: ). It's completely different from 922r compliance.

Edited by 22_Shooter

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That second quote you have there is from the old "Assault Weapons Ban" (which we still have in NY :cryss: ). It's completely different from 922r compliance.

 

Alright then. Does anyone have the literal text pertaining to sporting vs nonsporting firearms?

 

I'm not particularly anxious to spend more money and convert my Saiga, but I also want to be able to have and use the AGP 10-round mags (and my drum when it's finished).

 

Here's a question -- if I just get the FCG installed, would that be compliant? If I put in a factory 5-round magazine, it's still sporting and thus ok. If I put an AGP ten-round mag or a drum, they're made in America and then the gun is compliant.

 

Is this correct?

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That second quote you have there is from the old "Assault Weapons Ban" (which we still have in NY :cryss: ). It's completely different from 922r compliance.

 

Alright then. Does anyone have the literal text pertaining to sporting vs nonsporting firearms?

 

I'm not particularly anxious to spend more money and convert my Saiga, but I also want to be able to have and use the AGP 10-round mags (and my drum when it's finished).

 

Here's a question -- if I just get the FCG installed, would that be compliant? If I put in a factory 5-round magazine, it's still sporting and thus ok. If I put an AGP ten-round mag or a drum, they're made in America and then the gun is compliant.

 

Is this correct?

 

 

Well going by the parts count on the 1st page of this thread:

 

A Saiga shotgun threaded for chokes has 14 parts.

A Saiga shotgun not threaded for chokes has 13 parts.

 

So to be compliant, you would need to swap out 3 or 4 (depending on choke or no choke) original foreign parts, with U.S. made ones. Bringing you down to 10 or less foreign "counted" parts, thus being complaint.

 

The U.S. made FCG, which counts as 3 parts, would gain you compliance, if your Saiga is not threaded for chokes (given you didn't add any other foreign "counted" parts to it beforehand).

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So,

 

my 7.62x39 Saiga came with a 30 rd mag, pistol grip, and a stock with US stamped into it, all from the factory. Does this mean I have some special 922r compliant factory Saiga since it came with the US stock?

 

If not, will installing a Tapco AK G2 Trigger group (3 922r parts) get me to where I need to be? Will the G2 even work with the Saiga 7.62?

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So,

 

my 7.62x39 Saiga came with a 30 rd mag, pistol grip, and a stock with US stamped into it, all from the factory. Does this mean I have some special 922r compliant factory Saiga since it came with the US stock?

 

If not, will installing a Tapco AK G2 Trigger group (3 922r parts) get me to where I need to be? Will the G2 even work with the Saiga 7.62?

Saigas do not come 'from the factory' with a pistol grip unless it's part of a skeleton stock. Where were the PG and magazine manufactured? Find out from the seller if no other way. If those parts and the stock are all US-made you are probably good to go; if not do the G2 FCG and one other part (PG, piston prolly the easiest to replace.)

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So,

 

my 7.62x39 Saiga came with a 30 rd mag, pistol grip, and a stock with US stamped into it, all from the factory. Does this mean I have some special 922r compliant factory Saiga since it came with the US stock?

 

If not, will installing a Tapco AK G2 Trigger group (3 922r parts) get me to where I need to be? Will the G2 even work with the Saiga 7.62?

Saigas do not come 'from the factory' with a pistol grip unless it's part of a skeleton stock. Where were the PG and magazine manufactured? Find out from the seller if no other way. If those parts and the stock are all US-made you are probably good to go; if not do the G2 FCG and one other part (PG, piston prolly the easiest to replace.)

Thanks for the info, I'll shoot the dealer a call tomorrow and see what they have to say about it!

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I am considering using an imported pistol grip and vertical grip. I am also planning on using the G2 trigger assembly and a US made stock. If I toss the Saiga mag, and use US made mags am I compliant? Should I add a piston to be safe?

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I am considering using an imported pistol grip and vertical grip. I am also planning on using the G2 trigger assembly and a US made stock. If I toss the Saiga mag, and use US made mags am I compliant? Should I add a piston to be safe?

 

I'm assuming you're talking about a rifle, and not a shotgun. So going with that assumption, you need to bring the 14 foreign parts down to 10 or less; The G2 will give you 3 US parts, and a US made mag will give you 3 US parts. That brings you down to 8 foreign parts. Add in a foreign made pistol grip, it brings you up to 9 foreign parts. So you'd be compliant. But that means you can't use your factory Saiga mag (or any other foreign made mag) in it afterwards, because it's foreign, and you'd still have your pistol grip on it, which requires 922r compliance.

 

The vertical grip doesn't count in 922r, so use whatever kind you like.

Edited by 22_Shooter

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d4767883e74297e2c3ca59dccb1cadc4.jpg

 

My Saiga is set up exactly like the one pictured. I've filled the mag catch, installed a feed ramp and installed a G2 FCG. Problem is, I only have one US made mag (that I bought just for 922 stupidity). I would like to use the many Russian and Romanian mags I already have.

 

To use foreign made mags, exactly how many more US parts do I need? I'm not interested in moving the FCG and replacing the stock with a PG and standard stock, so that's out.

 

Basically, what I'm asking is this:

 

What was done to that gun in the pic to make it legal with that Soviet Block mag?

Edited by loki41872

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