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Parts Count on Saiga Shotguns and Rifles

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I'm buying a new Saiga-12 from a local gun store here in Mobile, AL, it supposedly comes from Uncle Russkie with a 5 rnd mag... Cool, we're compliant with 922r.

However, the dealer includes a American made 12rnd mag.

 

Question: Does inserting the 12 rnd mag make it non compliant?

 

If it is threaded for chokes, then yes. You would still need to swap out 1 more "counted" part. A gas piston (puck) would be the easiest way.

 

If it's not threaded, then the 3 US parts from the mag, would make it compliant.

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I'm buying a new Saiga-12 from a local gun store here in Mobile, AL, it supposedly comes from Uncle Russkie with a 5 rnd mag... Cool, we're compliant with 922r.

However, the dealer includes a American made 12rnd mag.

 

Question: Does inserting the 12 rnd mag make it non compliant?

 

If it is threaded for chokes, then yes. You would still need to swap out 1 more "counted" part. A gas piston (puck) would be the easiest way.

 

If it's not threaded, then the 3 US parts from the mag, would make it compliant.

Thank you.

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I'm buying a new Saiga-12 from a local gun store here in Mobile, AL, it supposedly comes from Uncle Russkie with a 5 rnd mag... Cool, we're compliant with 922r.

However, the dealer includes a American made 12rnd mag.

 

Question: Does inserting the 12 rnd mag make it non compliant?

 

If it is threaded for chokes, then yes. You would still need to swap out 1 more "counted" part. A gas piston (puck) would be the easiest way.

 

If it's not threaded, then the 3 US parts from the mag, would make it compliant.

 

 

This is so confusing. Saiga 12-

I installed the stock that has the grip attached. Assuming that is one part, correct?

The barrel is threaded, if I install an American made muzzle break or the poly choke, does that count as one part or not?

 

I need 4 parts total if I don't want to include the mag? Right? Is the gas piston hard to change out? A handgurd would count as one.

 

Suggestions? Damn, I think from now on American made is far easier. By the time you add all these things to make it compliant, it's almost the price of another saiga. Stupid rules that make no sense, but the penalty is too large to not comply.

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I'm buying a new Saiga-12 from a local gun store here in Mobile, AL, it supposedly comes from Uncle Russkie with a 5 rnd mag... Cool, we're compliant with 922r.

However, the dealer includes a American made 12rnd mag.

 

Question: Does inserting the 12 rnd mag make it non compliant?

 

If it is threaded for chokes, then yes. You would still need to swap out 1 more "counted" part. A gas piston (puck) would be the easiest way.

 

If it's not threaded, then the 3 US parts from the mag, would make it compliant.

 

 

This is so confusing. Saiga 12-

I installed the stock that has the grip attached. Assuming that is one part, correct?

The barrel is threaded, if I install an American made muzzle break or the poly choke, does that count as one part or not?

 

I need 4 parts total if I don't want to include the mag? Right? Is the gas piston hard to change out? A handgurd would count as one.

 

Suggestions? Damn, I think from now on American made is far easier. By the time you add all these things to make it compliant, it's almost the price of another saiga. Stupid rules that make no sense, but the penalty is too large to not comply.

 

Also any suggestions as to where to get the choke, or handguard?

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Ok, I have some confusion here. I have a saiga 7.62x39 that I am adding a tapco collapsing stock to (pinned to be legal in ny). It says that saiga has 14 foreign parts. the stock is replacing 1 part so i need to replace 3 more. i found this trigger hammer and disconnected kit online http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=124712695 that is supposed to count as three parts. I read here http://home.comcast.net/~navy87guy/home/922r.html that grinding the trigger lets it work with the saiga. Heres where I'm confused, on a siaga they use a separate trigger and connector plate to trip where the trigger on a normal ak is. do i have to replace ALL these parts or just the inner trigger piece? what exactly is considered the trigger on a saiga, is it the the external trigger where one might normally think or the inner one that i would be replacing with that kit or is its all the pieces combined? thanks

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Ok, I have some confusion here. I have a saiga 7.62x39 that I am adding a tapco collapsing stock to (pinned to be legal in ny). It says that saiga has 14 foreign parts. the stock is replacing 1 part so i need to replace 3 more. i found this trigger hammer and disconnected kit online http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=124712695 that is supposed to count as three parts. I read here http://home.comcast.net/~navy87guy/home/922r.html that grinding the trigger lets it work with the saiga. Heres where I'm confused, on a siaga they use a separate trigger and connector plate to trip where the trigger on a normal ak is. do i have to replace ALL these parts or just the inner trigger piece? what exactly is considered the trigger on a saiga, is it the the external trigger where one might normally think or the inner one that i would be replacing with that kit or is its all the pieces combined? thanks

The factory trigger is 3 pieces held together by 3 pins.

 

You'll not need any of junk you pull out of the Saiga.

 

The 3 parts are all you'll need.

 

 

Grinding is not necessary unless you want to keep the bolt hold open after your conveerson.

 

Why shop gunbroker when we have vendors here with much better deals?

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Ok, I have some confusion here. I have a saiga 7.62x39 that I am adding a tapco collapsing stock to (pinned to be legal in ny). It says that saiga has 14 foreign parts. the stock is replacing 1 part so i need to replace 3 more. i found this trigger hammer and disconnected kit online http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=124712695 that is supposed to count as three parts. I read here http://home.comcast.net/~navy87guy/home/922r.html that grinding the trigger lets it work with the saiga. Heres where I'm confused, on a siaga they use a separate trigger and connector plate to trip where the trigger on a normal ak is. do i have to replace ALL these parts or just the inner trigger piece? what exactly is considered the trigger on a saiga, is it the the external trigger where one might normally think or the inner one that i would be replacing with that kit or is its all the pieces combined? thanks

The factory trigger is 3 pieces held together by 3 pins.

 

You'll not need any of junk you pull out of the Saiga.

 

The 3 parts are all you'll need.

 

 

Grinding is not necessary unless you want to keep the bolt hold open after your conveerson.

 

Why shop gunbroker when we have vendors here with much better deals?

 

oh i just did a quick google search to find some parts, ill search around here when i actually buy. as far as the other parts go, im not doing a trigger group conversion where it is moved into the ak position, the stock fits where the original does so i will still need the trigger and connector plate on the gun

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Does the Saiga 223 that comes with the dragunov skeleton stock have 15 parts or 14?

 

I bought one and I have a surefire magazine, if I could just change the hand guard and be at 10 parts that would be great because I like the drag stock and don't want to do the full conversion. I just want to be able to use high capacity magazines.

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hello , ok I have a stock saiga 12 threaded barrel and im going to leave it stock, but I want to use 10 round mags, so if I use the us mag gives me 3 points and I change the puck for 1 so im at 10 legal can I still use the 5 round mag that came with it . thanks

Edited by csl

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I'm new to forum and also new to the 922r rule. Well, anyway I just got my hands on a 7.62x39 with a skeleton stock, NcSTAR scope and 150 rounds from a buddy of mine for $250 . The gun is clean and I was there when he purchased it. The thing is I really want to hook this gun up so I purchased a 30 rd. Surefire mag, UTG Fore grip, UTG Quad Rail, and Tapco M4 collapsable stock. I want to know if the gun is compliant with all this gear as I have the surefire mag (3 us parts) and the Tapco stock( 1 part). I'm a Florida resident and the laws aren't that strict here but I wan't to take this baby to the range, but also don't want no trouble. Any info will be greatly appreciated.

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Hello, Im new so bare with me please!

WOW, I never thought that a subject could be so confusing. Dont get me wrong I understand it sort of. FOR EXAMPLE the way I see it, the Saiga 12 Shotgun (IZ-109) has 14 "points" going against it and by adding U.S.A. made parts this lowers the "points" going against it. And the magic number is 10 points or less. Ok with that being said what things would be some of the easier things to do to make my new saiga 12 compliant? I would like to have a diff stock and a high cap mag for sure.

Sorry to ask some what of a redundant Q. after reading the whole thread , but i would rather have it down and know it then piss off Uncle sam. For the record I live in Wisconsin and i have JUST bought my saiga 12 IZ-109 so its compleatly bone stock. I figure you guys know your stuff so why not ask the pros.

Thanks again and I hope I dont step on toes with my questions.

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Hello, Im new so bare with me please!

WOW, I never thought that a subject could be so confusing. Dont get me wrong I understand it sort of. FOR EXAMPLE the way I see it, the Saiga 12 Shotgun (IZ-109) has 14 "points" going against it and by adding U.S.A. made parts this lowers the "points" going against it. And the magic number is 10 points or less. Ok with that being said what things would be some of the easier things to do to make my new saiga 12 compliant? I would like to have a diff stock and a high cap mag for sure.

Sorry to ask some what of a redundant Q. after reading the whole thread , but i would rather have it down and know it then piss off Uncle sam. For the record I live in Wisconsin and i have JUST bought my saiga 12 IZ-109 so its compleatly bone stock. I figure you guys know your stuff so why not ask the pros.

Thanks again and I hope I dont step on toes with my questions.

 

If it's bone stock you are fine. If you add a pistol grip or a "high capacity" mag you need to REDUCE the # of imported, restricted parts.

 

Here's the list of easy things to remove to lower your imported parts count:

Stock

Forearm

Gas piston/puck

Barrels thread protector

Magazine (3 parts)

Fire control group (3 parts)

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Thanks a lot! So realisticly If I bought a Gas piston puck thing (Im real techincal) , a stock, and a 12 rnd mag I will technicly be compliant?

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Having read all the information posted i am now completely confused,

 

I have a 7.62x39 saiga with skeleton stock, i have bought a TMG foregrip quad rail, by attaching it to the rifle have i now violated 922

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OK, I am NOT a technical person & this bureaucratic BS(922r) drives me nuts, BUT I think I get the gist of it. I'm frankly shocked that I actually get it(I think?), and so many others don't. I'm also surprised by how many people don't want to fix the jacked-up trigger. Anyways, as I understand it, the Stock Saiga 12 shotguns come with 13 or 14 "countable" foreign parts(depending on the threaded or non-threaded muzzle), and if you are going to add a high-capacity mag, pistol grip, or other "non-sporting"(blegh!) conversion(restoration)part then you need to replace enough "922r counted" foreign parts with US parts, to reduce the foreign parts count to 10, regardless of how many US parts you add. Did I get it right? I think so, and that may be a 1st for me.

 

Of course reading through this thread I did come across a few details that threw me such as this comment:

i found this trigger hammer and disconnected kit online http://www.gunbroker...?Item=124712695 that is supposed to count as three parts. I read here http://home.comcast..../home/922r.html that grinding the trigger lets it work with the saiga.

Grinding is not necessary unless you want to keep the bolt hold open after your conveerson.

My 1st question is, why would you need to grind the trigger(FCG?) to keep the BHO? Is that only required if you are NOT converting(restoring) the trigger(FCG), or do you have to do that to keep the BHO either way? Because despite my appalling lack of technical skill & understanding, I plan on doing the FCG conversion, so that the trigger is where it is supposed to be and functions like it's supposed to. I also intend to add a PG, where it is MEANT to be, so the balance and handling aren't awkward and FUBAR. BUT, I want to keep the BHO. If I'm fully restoring my Saiga do I need to grind the trigger to keep the BHO, and if so could someone direct me to info about that?

 

I have a quick, and slightly stupid 2nd question(NOT a technically minded person, at ALL). I know the US conversion FCG is 3 parts, but does that mean that the misplaced stock FCG they replace count as 3 foreign parts? I also don't quite understand exactly what parts constitute an FCG, other than the actual trigger itself of course...

Edited by GuyFoX

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Of course reading through this thread I did come across a few details that threw me such as this comment:

i found this trigger hammer and disconnected kit online http://www.gunbroker...?Item=124712695 that is supposed to count as three parts. I read here http://home.comcast..../home/922r.html that grinding the trigger lets it work with the saiga.

Grinding is not necessary unless you want to keep the bolt hold open after your conveerson.

My 1st question is, why would you need to grind the trigger(FCG?) to keep the BHO?

Item number 4 is the BHO.

saiga556_664_a.JPG

 

It is approximately 3mm thick, and if you are converting, will require you remove approximately the same amount of material from the replacement hammer axis shaft so that the new hammer fits in the receiver next to the BHO.

Is that only required if you are NOT converting(restoring) the trigger(FCG), or do you have to do that to keep the BHO either way? Because despite my appalling lack of technical skill & understanding, I plan on doing the FCG conversion, so that the trigger is where it is supposed to be and functions like it's supposed to. I also intend to add a PG, where it is MEANT to be, so the balance and handling aren't awkward and FUBAR. BUT, I want to keep the BHO. If I'm fully restoring my Saiga do I need to grind the trigger to keep the BHO, and if so could someone direct me to info about that?

If you are NOT converting the FCG, you don't need to do anything.

I have a quick, and slightly stupid 2nd question(NOT a technically minded person, at ALL). I know the US conversion FCG is 3 parts, but does that mean that the misplaced stock FCG they replace count as 3 foreign parts? I also don't quite understand exactly what parts constitute an FCG, other than the actual trigger itself of course...

The FCG (acronym for Fire Control Group) consists of a hammer, trigger and disconnecter. These parts appear on the 922r list and are countable.
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Ok, now that i'm confused as shit can some one help a dumb ass like me out. I have a Saiga 12 with a threaded barrel my plan is to restore it. This is my list of parts.

 

forearm / russian

pistol grip / russian

butt stock / usa

hammer / usa

disonnector / usa

trigger / usa

gas piston / usa

mags / usa (10rd and MD drum)

choke / usa

 

Will this be enough to cover my ass. My local PD could probably care less about 922r but God forbid the day you have to defend your self and some liberal finds out your not 922r. I'd change out the PG and forearm if I had to but I like what I have and dont want to bow down more than I have to.

Edited by lg308

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I just showed this thread to someone who has built a couple of these. We have been discussing 922r. He says the o.p. is wrong. He states if you add a pistol grip, and it is made in the u.s. it counts as a u.s. part. I agreed with the o.p. and thought it brought the count up to 15 no matter where it is made since the gun was not imported with the stock. What is the consensus on this? I have been all over the net reading and have read it both ways.

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I just showed this thread to someone who has built a couple of these. We have been discussing 922r. He says the o.p. is wrong. He states if you add a pistol grip, and it is made in the u.s. it counts as a u.s. part. I agreed with the o.p. and thought it brought the count up to 15 no matter where it is made since the gun was not imported with the stock. What is the consensus on this? I have been all over the net reading and have read it both ways.

The mathematically challenged will be living in the graybar hotel.

 

Adding a part not present on the original gun - no matter it's origins - adds to the total parts count.

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I agree with you, and that is how I have read it. The problem is there are so many places out there giving conflicting answers.

 

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=27423/Product/SAIGA_INTRAFUSE_STOCK_PISTOL_GRIP_KIT

 

This shows that this kit counts for 2 u.s. parts, which I believe to be wrong.

 

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AKS509-6.html

 

The same kit, and it does not state that it counts for 922r compliance. Any other part on their site that counts is listed as counting for compliance. This one does not because they cancel each other out I would say.

 

Not trying to be stupid here, or beat a dead horse but I want to make sure I am legal and have someone who is contradicting what is being posted here.

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I agree with you, and that is how I have read it. The problem is there are so many places out there giving conflicting answers.

 

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=27423/Product/SAIGA_INTRAFUSE_STOCK_PISTOL_GRIP_KIT

 

This shows that this kit counts for 2 u.s. parts, which I believe to be wrong.

 

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AKS509-6.html

 

The same kit, and it does not state that it counts for 922r compliance. Any other part on their site that counts is listed as counting for compliance. This one does not because they cancel each other out I would say.

 

Not trying to be stupid here, or beat a dead horse but I want to make sure I am legal and have someone who is contradicting what is being posted here.

Brownells and CTD are not lawyers.

 

They are selling stuff.

 

They are not going to jail for handing out erroneous info, much like your car dealer isn't going to jail when you violate the speed limit after one of their salesmen tells you the car you're purchasing can hit 142mph.

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Every person I talk to "knows the law for sure" and quotes it different. I even called Tapco and spoke to them. They stated that the pistol grip counts as a U.S. part. I told them that the gun is not imported with a grip so adding one counts against it. The gentle man stated then that the grip is stamped U.S.A. so it is a mute point and it cancels itself out, you are back to zero. I told him Brownells is selling the part and advertising it as 2 922r compliance parts, which the Tapco spokesperson stated, "yes that is correct, counts as 2 compliance parts." :evil: WTF!

Edited by rdhanded2

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Every person I talk to "knows the law for sure" and quotes it different. I even called Tapco and spoke to them. They stated that the pistol grip counts as a U.S. part. I told them that the gun is not imported with a grip so adding one counts against it. The gentle man stated then that the grip is stamped U.S.A. so it is a mute point and it cancels itself out, you are back to zero. I told him Brownells is selling the part and advertising it as 2 922r compliance parts, which the Tapco spokesperson stated, "yes that is correct, counts as 2 compliance parts." :evil: WTF!

The Tapco rep was correct.

 

When you add a whole new countable part of US origins, it does "cancel itself out", as it doesn't count against you under 922r. It still brings the total parts count up by one.

 

Capische?

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Ok, I am an idiot. lol I should understand this but I for some reason can't wrap my brain around it.

 

Lets say I have a stock Saiga rifle: 14 non u.s. parts. I add a kit from Tapco that has a stock and pistol grip, both of which are stamped U.S.A. Am I then at 12 or 13?

 

13

The pistol grip is canceled out because it was not there before. So now your total countable parts are at 15. If you add a muzzle brake it is the same, adding a countable part and moving you up to 16countable parts. If it is US made than it will not count against you or for you.

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My Saiga has a threaded barrel. I added a Poly Choke II. Then I added a Tapco collapsable stock with pistol grip. I added aside mount red dot for use with slugs. I have 5 and 10 round magazines.

Am I legal or not???

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I see the link to Wes's letter from the ATF about the Saiga shotgun no longer works.

 

http://www.soupbowl.kalashnikov.guns.ru/page12.html

 

It seems odd to me that the ATF would issue an opinion letter that the Saiga shotgun trunnion is somehow unlike every other AK on the planet that they have repeatedly ruled was a separate part from the receiver and was inseparable from the sheet metal receiver if the trunnion was the serialized part given there is nothing in the US code that says shotgun trunnions are treated different than rifle trunnions. Is there another link to this opinion letter . I have been unable to find one on this site.

Edited by wired

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I see the link to Wes's letter from the ATF about the Saiga shotgun no longer works.

 

http://www.soupbowl.....ru/page12.html

 

It seems odd to me that the ATF would issue an opinion letter that the Saiga shotgun trunnion is somehow unlike every other AK on the planet that they have repeatedly ruled was a separate part from the receiver and was inseparable from the sheet metal receiver if the trunnion was the serialized part given there is nothing in the US code that says shotgun trunnions are treated different than rifle trunnions. Is there another link to this opinion letter . I have been unable to find one on this site.

Can't get the link from the post to work, but Tromix had a post from Aug. 30, 2007: "I am guessing that the BATFE did not count the "trunion" because they consider that piece to be the actual "receiver" in the Saiga-12. It has the S/N on it and "receives" both the barrel and the bolt. That makes the part the receiver. They may also consider the front and rear trunion "assembled" in the channel to be the receiver, much like their ruling on the M60 receiver."

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