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Parts Count on Saiga Shotguns and Rifles


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#31 748

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Posted 09 December 2007 - 08:39 PM

"undefined definitions"
Don't you just love those?
Back yard converted S12 - now 9 parts with out the factory mag.
Goal - 10 parts or less with the factory mag.

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#32 SN13

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 08:48 AM

yep :)
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#33 mib2nd

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Posted 11 January 2008 - 05:35 AM

I know I was quite confused when trying to figure out 922R compliance, so I put together a simple spreadsheet to make it a little more simple. You can go to my website link and download a copy. You do need Microsoft Excel:

http://sharperimaging.net/saiga/

#34 Azrial

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Posted 11 January 2008 - 01:41 PM

Muzzle threads are not a part. As Dinzag has said in the tutorial.
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#35 Son Of Holy Wrath

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 09:40 AM

okay...i have a threaded barrel S12...can i have a US 10 rnd. mag in it legally? if not then what do i do?
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#36 tritium

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 10:38 AM

okay...i have a threaded barrel S12...can i have a US 10 rnd. mag in it legally? if not then what do i do?

The infamous 'Soupbowl' ATF letter condisers a stock Saiga shotgun to have thirteen countable parts, so using a ten round US made mag may be legal although it's treading a fine line that is open to argument. It'd be safer to substitute another US made part e.g. stock, handguard, gas piston, etc.

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#37 belt fed frog

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 02:38 PM

so with a Siaga -12 109 threaded barrel i add an ACE folding stock W/pistol grip (still not out just yet) and an AGP 10 rounder then i am still good ? yes or no

#38 chevymann

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 04:22 PM

I have a stupid question... How can you tell if the parts are imports or not? Once they change hands a couple of times that type of info is often lost.

#39 98bird

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 09:27 PM

So if I want to go with the EASIEST route possible for 922R Compliance (ie. not messing with the trigger group, etc) with a Saiga 7.62x39mm, would this be ok?

From the Tapco catalogue: http://www.tapco.com...log.aspx?id=234

[1] 009.99 AK Slant Muzzle Brake (ak0684)
[1] 049.99 AK Folding Stock (stk06150)
[1] 010.99 AK Original Style Pistol Grip (stk06201)
[1] 029.99 AK Galil Style Handguard (stk06310)
[3] 019.99 AK 30 rnd mag (mag0637)


Thanks in advance.

#40 -Shooter-

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 09:37 PM

So if I want to go with the EASIEST route possible for 922R Compliance (ie. not messing with the trigger group, etc) with a Saiga 7.62x39mm, would this be ok?

From the Tapco catalogue: http://www.tapco.com...log.aspx?id=234

[1] 009.99 AK Slant Muzzle Brake (ak0684)
[1] 049.99 AK Folding Stock (stk06150)
[1] 010.99 AK Original Style Pistol Grip (stk06201)
[1] 029.99 AK Galil Style Handguard (stk06310)
[3] 019.99 AK 30 rnd mag (mag0637)


Thanks in advance.


The muzzle brake and PG aren't replacing anything, since they don't come on a Saiga in factory configuration, so they don't count towards compliance. Just make sure if you do add them, that they are US made, which obviously Tapco is. The US made stock and handguard will give you 2 compliance parts, and the US made magazine will give you 3. So yes, you would be compliant with only 9 foreign parts in your rifle. But most people, including myself, don't like to use mags to gain compliance, because as soon as you stick your factory 10 rounder back in (if you ever do), you're in violation (the same goes for any other foreign made mag, obviously).

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#41 98bird

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 10:24 PM

The muzzle brake and PG aren't replacing anything, since they don't come on a Saiga in factory configuration, so they don't count towards compliance. Just make sure if you do add them, that they are US made, which obviously Tapco is. The US made stock and handguard will give you 2 compliance parts, and the US made magazine will give you 3. So yes, you would be compliant with only 9 foreign parts in your rifle.


Ah thanks dude. That makes sense.

So what is the next 3 easiest conversion parts.....can you go from easiest first? I really don't want to do the trigger group :(

#42 -Shooter-

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 11:30 PM

The muzzle brake and PG aren't replacing anything, since they don't come on a Saiga in factory configuration, so they don't count towards compliance. Just make sure if you do add them, that they are US made, which obviously Tapco is. The US made stock and handguard will give you 2 compliance parts, and the US made magazine will give you 3. So yes, you would be compliant with only 9 foreign parts in your rifle.


Ah thanks dude. That makes sense.

So what is the next 3 easiest conversion parts.....can you go from easiest first? I really don't want to do the trigger group :(


Easiest as in the least amount of work? Pretty much what you have planned. But I highly recommend doing the conversion, and moving the FCG. It's better to not have to rely on mags for compliance anyway. It really is easy. I was all worried I would mess it up, but I did it. I only used basic hand tools and a power drill. Trust me, you won't regret doing it, and when you're done, you'll kick yourself for not doing it sooner.

ETA: Those vids you posted about in that other thread give a pretty good idea of how to do it. Like people have said, there's probably easier/better ways to some of the steps, but that video is great for showing just how easy it is.

Edited by 22_Shooter, 01 February 2008 - 11:36 PM.

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#43 JimR

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 04:01 AM

A Saiga Rifle in factory configuration has 14 parts.

(1) Receiver
(2) Barrels
(3) Mounting blocks, trunnion (rifles only)
(4) Bolts
(5) Bolt carriers
(6) Gas pistons
(7) Triggers
(8) Hammers
(9) Disconnectors
(10) Buttstock
(11) Forearms, handguards
(12) Magazine bodies
(13) Followers
(14) Floorplates
(15) Pistol grips

Examples:

You have a Saiga-7.62x39 and want to use high capacity magazines. Since high capacity magazines are considered ”unsporting”, and would be in violation of 922. Your rifle with mag has 14 parts. Use U.S. made mags and one additional U.S. made part like a gas piston and you are good to go.

Flash Hider/Muzzle Brakes/Compensators…
Any type of FH, Brake, Comp or choke are considered muzzle devices. They are included in the parts count. However there has been some disagreement in the past as to whether adding a muzzle brake constitutes making the imported weapon ”unsporting”.


Sorry, I hacked up your post ( in my quote ), but did so to make sure I understand what I need to do for a rifle conversion.

3 points for the USA mag
1 point for the telescoping buttstock
1 point for the handguard w/rails

Thats gives me 5 US parts to 9 original parts and allows me to use the hi-cap US mags. I can now use the original factory mag installed, right? Or does the telescoping stock make it non-sporting?

Assuming the telescoping stock keeps it sporting, if I ADD a pistol grip, that makes it 6 U.S parts. BUT, in doing so, then the original factory mag installed would make it illegal ( because the pistol grip makes it non-sporting, thus with the factory mag, I'm losing 3 points making the part count at 3 US to 12 factory)?

Adding a muzzle brake...as long as it is U.S. part, It's counted as a U.S. part, right? So no worries there?

I understand I could do a trigger group and gain a few points. I would if they were $10, but their not. I'd rather spend the money on the stock/forearm items I want.

Edited by JimR, 21 February 2008 - 04:09 AM.


#44 -Shooter-

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 02:13 PM

Sorry, I hacked up your post ( in my quote ), but did so to make sure I understand what I need to do for a rifle conversion.

3 points for the USA mag
1 point for the telescoping buttstock
1 point for the handguard w/rails

Thats gives me 5 US parts to 9 original parts and allows me to use the hi-cap US mags. I can now use the original factory mag installed, right? Or does the telescoping stock make it non-sporting?

Assuming the telescoping stock keeps it sporting, if I ADD a pistol grip, that makes it 6 U.S parts. BUT, in doing so, then the original factory mag installed would make it illegal ( because the pistol grip makes it non-sporting, thus with the factory mag, I'm losing 3 points making the part count at 3 US to 12 factory)?

Adding a muzzle brake...as long as it is U.S. part, It's counted as a U.S. part, right? So no worries there?

I understand I could do a trigger group and gain a few points. I would if they were $10, but their not. I'd rather spend the money on the stock/forearm items I want.


I'm not sure if adding a telescoping stock affects 922r, maybe someone else can jump in on that one. How are going to add a pistol grip without doing a conversion, and switching out the FCG? The only way I know of is another member's creative idea of attaching the pistol grip to his butt-stock on his unconverted rifle. Either way, yes, putting your factory Saiga mag back in would violate 922r, given that you have a pistol grip and only a butt-stock and hand guards for compliance (using a U.S made pistol grip doesn't exactly count towards compliance, because the rifle didn't have one to begin with).

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#45 JimR

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 11:44 PM

I seen a post here somewhere that a person added a PG without moving the TG. I'll have to go back and find it.

#46 -Shooter-

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 11:46 PM

I seen a post here somewhere that a person added a PG without moving the TG. I'll have to go back and find it.


http://forum.saiga-1...showtopic=22215

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#47 JimR

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 11:57 PM

I seen a post here somewhere that a person added a PG without moving the TG. I'll have to go back and find it.


http://forum.saiga-1...showtopic=22215


Here is the utube link:


There are also a couple neat stock/grip combo's I was looking at. I like this one, it has an adjustable cheek pad also:
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#48 madmax4x4

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 12:34 AM

http://www.atf.gov/f...preststamps.pdf
Page 4 and page 8. Read page 4 first. It is not much to read only 2 paragraphs.

YOU CAN NOT USE 10 ROUND U.S. MAGS IN A SAIGA 12 with just one(as some say evil)
Saiga is an import shot gun. it can not have more than 5 round Mag capacity and be a sporting gun or am I wrong?
Also some one was asking about removing the stock and putting on pistol grip to get around 922 but calling it a pistol like an AR-15. I don't think he was talking about sbs or cutting down the barrle, just doing it like a moussberg with pistol grip. That also will not work because Saiga 12 is an import if mossy was an import (defender 9shot) would also be illeigal. can not import shotgun that is not designed to be fired from the shoulder.
http://www.agarms.co...m...&Itemid=210
THE laws are f@#$#%$ BULL@^*& Qubert :devil:
Better off to change stock, forearm, FCG than keep it factory so you can use mags with more than 5.
Ps I misspelled round 3 times so what do I know :unsure:

Edited by madmax4x4, 22 February 2008 - 01:05 AM.


#49 madmax4x4

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 01:34 AM

http://www.atf.gov/p...open_letter.pdf


http://www.atf.gov/f...g_a_firearm.pdf
Page 3 in this atf letter says less than 10 import parts
http://www.atf.gov/p...es/backgrnd.pdf
page 6
http://www.atf.gov/p...fles/method.pdf
everyone save as much info as you can from A.T.F'n what did you say?
I hope they don't try to take are saigas or all are other gun for that matter, Before the ZOMBIES do come.
Then we can change any sporting questions

#50 madmax4x4

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 01:34 AM

:ph34r:

Edited by madmax4x4, 22 February 2008 - 01:37 AM.


#51 Bosco Baracus

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 02:13 PM

http://www.atf.gov/f...preststamps.pdf
Page 4 and page 8. Read page 4 first. It is not much to read only 2 paragraphs.

YOU CAN NOT USE 10 ROUND U.S. MAGS IN A SAIGA 12 with just one(as some say evil)
Saiga is an import shot gun. it can not have more than 5 round Mag capacity and be a sporting gun or am I wrong?



I thought that the magazine capacity did not matter at all for a Saiga 12, simply because it is already an "evil feature" by virtue of it being detachable.

There was a list of "evil features" in the law that specified that if a shotgun had 2 (or more) of them, it was "unsporting." Among them are things like pistol grips and adjustable stocks. There are two lines that apply to magazines:

(d) A semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of--
(1) A folding or telescoping stock,
(2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of
the weapon,
(3) A fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds, and
(4) An ability to accept a detachable magazine.


Taken from: http://www.atf.treas...s/27cfr178.html

The Saiga doesn't have a "fixed magazine," so that clause can't count against it. The other clause says "detachable magazine" without mention of the capacity. That said, a Saiga isn't "unsporting" until you add another evil feature other than the magazine (such as a telescoping stock or pistol grip).

At least, that's how I always understood it... can someone with more experience shed some light?

Edited by Bosco Baracus, 05 April 2008 - 03:07 PM.


#52 -Shooter-

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 07:00 PM

http://www.atf.gov/f...preststamps.pdf
Page 4 and page 8. Read page 4 first. It is not much to read only 2 paragraphs.

YOU CAN NOT USE 10 ROUND U.S. MAGS IN A SAIGA 12 with just one(as some say evil)
Saiga is an import shot gun. it can not have more than 5 round Mag capacity and be a sporting gun or am I wrong?



I thought that the magazine capacity did not matter at all for a Saiga 12, simply because it is already an "evil feature" by virtue of it being detachable.

There was a list of "evil features" in the law that specified that if a shotgun had 2 (or more) of them, it was "unsporting." Among them are things like pistol grips and adjustable stocks. There are two lines that apply to magazines:

(d) A semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of--
(1) A folding or telescoping stock,
(2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of
the weapon,
(3) A fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds, and
(4) An ability to accept a detachable magazine.


Taken from: http://www.atf.treas...s/27cfr178.html

The Saiga doesn't have a "fixed magazine," so that clause can't count against it. The other clause says "detachable magazine" without mention of the capacity. That said, a Saiga isn't "unsporting" until you add another evil feature other than the magazine (such as a telescoping stock or pistol grip).

At least, that's how I always understood it... can someone with more experience shed some light?



That second quote you have there is from the old "Assault Weapons Ban" (which we still have in NY :cryss: ). It's completely different from 922r compliance.

Edited by 22_Shooter, 05 April 2008 - 07:01 PM.

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#53 Bosco Baracus

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 07:56 PM

That second quote you have there is from the old "Assault Weapons Ban" (which we still have in NY :cryss: ). It's completely different from 922r compliance.


Alright then. Does anyone have the literal text pertaining to sporting vs nonsporting firearms?

I'm not particularly anxious to spend more money and convert my Saiga, but I also want to be able to have and use the AGP 10-round mags (and my drum when it's finished).

Here's a question -- if I just get the FCG installed, would that be compliant? If I put in a factory 5-round magazine, it's still sporting and thus ok. If I put an AGP ten-round mag or a drum, they're made in America and then the gun is compliant.

Is this correct?

#54 -Shooter-

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 09:41 PM

That second quote you have there is from the old "Assault Weapons Ban" (which we still have in NY :cryss: ). It's completely different from 922r compliance.


Alright then. Does anyone have the literal text pertaining to sporting vs nonsporting firearms?

I'm not particularly anxious to spend more money and convert my Saiga, but I also want to be able to have and use the AGP 10-round mags (and my drum when it's finished).

Here's a question -- if I just get the FCG installed, would that be compliant? If I put in a factory 5-round magazine, it's still sporting and thus ok. If I put an AGP ten-round mag or a drum, they're made in America and then the gun is compliant.

Is this correct?



Well going by the parts count on the 1st page of this thread:

A Saiga shotgun threaded for chokes has 14 parts.
A Saiga shotgun not threaded for chokes has 13 parts.


So to be compliant, you would need to swap out 3 or 4 (depending on choke or no choke) original foreign parts, with U.S. made ones. Bringing you down to 10 or less foreign "counted" parts, thus being complaint.

The U.S. made FCG, which counts as 3 parts, would gain you compliance, if your Saiga is not threaded for chokes (given you didn't add any other foreign "counted" parts to it beforehand).

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#55 glockfire

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 01:23 AM

So,

my 7.62x39 Saiga came with a 30 rd mag, pistol grip, and a stock with US stamped into it, all from the factory. Does this mean I have some special 922r compliant factory Saiga since it came with the US stock?

If not, will installing a Tapco AK G2 Trigger group (3 922r parts) get me to where I need to be? Will the G2 even work with the Saiga 7.62?

#56 tritium

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 09:57 AM

So,

my 7.62x39 Saiga came with a 30 rd mag, pistol grip, and a stock with US stamped into it, all from the factory. Does this mean I have some special 922r compliant factory Saiga since it came with the US stock?

If not, will installing a Tapco AK G2 Trigger group (3 922r parts) get me to where I need to be? Will the G2 even work with the Saiga 7.62?

Saigas do not come 'from the factory' with a pistol grip unless it's part of a skeleton stock. Where were the PG and magazine manufactured? Find out from the seller if no other way. If those parts and the stock are all US-made you are probably good to go; if not do the G2 FCG and one other part (PG, piston prolly the easiest to replace.)
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#57 glockfire

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 10:39 AM

So,

my 7.62x39 Saiga came with a 30 rd mag, pistol grip, and a stock with US stamped into it, all from the factory. Does this mean I have some special 922r compliant factory Saiga since it came with the US stock?

If not, will installing a Tapco AK G2 Trigger group (3 922r parts) get me to where I need to be? Will the G2 even work with the Saiga 7.62?

Saigas do not come 'from the factory' with a pistol grip unless it's part of a skeleton stock. Where were the PG and magazine manufactured? Find out from the seller if no other way. If those parts and the stock are all US-made you are probably good to go; if not do the G2 FCG and one other part (PG, piston prolly the easiest to replace.)

Thanks for the info, I'll shoot the dealer a call tomorrow and see what they have to say about it!

#58 skifast

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 09:45 AM

I am considering using an imported pistol grip and vertical grip. I am also planning on using the G2 trigger assembly and a US made stock. If I toss the Saiga mag, and use US made mags am I compliant? Should I add a piston to be safe?

#59 -Shooter-

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 12:17 PM

I am considering using an imported pistol grip and vertical grip. I am also planning on using the G2 trigger assembly and a US made stock. If I toss the Saiga mag, and use US made mags am I compliant? Should I add a piston to be safe?


I'm assuming you're talking about a rifle, and not a shotgun. So going with that assumption, you need to bring the 14 foreign parts down to 10 or less; The G2 will give you 3 US parts, and a US made mag will give you 3 US parts. That brings you down to 8 foreign parts. Add in a foreign made pistol grip, it brings you up to 9 foreign parts. So you'd be compliant. But that means you can't use your factory Saiga mag (or any other foreign made mag) in it afterwards, because it's foreign, and you'd still have your pistol grip on it, which requires 922r compliance.

The vertical grip doesn't count in 922r, so use whatever kind you like.

Edited by 22_Shooter, 10 June 2008 - 12:18 PM.

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Is there Vitamin C in Newports?
No, but you can't get a snitch shanked for a dozen oranges no matter how hard you try.


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#60 loki41872

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 11:12 PM

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My Saiga is set up exactly like the one pictured. I've filled the mag catch, installed a feed ramp and installed a G2 FCG. Problem is, I only have one US made mag (that I bought just for 922 stupidity). I would like to use the many Russian and Romanian mags I already have.

To use foreign made mags, exactly how many more US parts do I need? I'm not interested in moving the FCG and replacing the stock with a PG and standard stock, so that's out.

Basically, what I'm asking is this:

What was done to that gun in the pic to make it legal with that Soviet Block mag?

Edited by loki41872, 06 July 2008 - 11:30 PM.





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