Dry Firing

[Drinking Beer 12]

Is it safe to Dry Fire the Saiga .308 without damaging the pin. ?

[mccumber1916 1]

Is it safe to Dry Fire the Saiga .308 without damaging the pin. ?

 

snap caps are cheap

[fossten 1]

Is it safe to Dry Fire the Saiga .308 without damaging the pin. ?

 

snap caps are cheap

Is that a "yes" or a "no"?

[mccumber1916 1]

Is it safe to Dry Fire the Saiga .308 without damaging the pin. ?

 

snap caps are cheap

Is that a "yes" or a "no"?

 

i personally say don't do it... but it's not like a rimfire

just a bad practice

and i do it occasionally... but even a used casing for a snap cap

 

my opinion only... i'm no gunsmith

[Bvamp 604]

yes, it is ok. the floating firing pin on an AKM type gun is one of the few that you DO NOT have to worry about breaking. and if you do? its a cheap part and simple to replace, IF it breaks, which it shouldnt. the gun is designed to allow it. think combat, full auto, and the mag emptying. CLICK. it SHOULDNT break, just like any battle rifle, like the modernised AR15. if its mil spec, which almost all AKMs are, it wont break.

 

dry fire all you want. its an AK. I clean mine with a handful of oil and an air nozzle, and I beat the hell out of them on the range and off. never had a problem. I cant say that for the AR I had.....although the AR outshot the x39 I own.....doesnt mean much if I abuse it and it breaks though, if you ask me, which the standard AKM will NOT do.

[fossten 1]

Thanks, Bvamp, that's encouraging.

[mccumber1916 1]

Thanks, Bvamp, that's encouraging.

 

he know guns better than i... now i don't have to kringe evrytime i do it

[Drinking Beer 12]

Awesome, thanks for the input guys.

 

I just got this rifle a week ago. I shot it at at 25 yards with iron sights. I live in Jersey, so I had to go to a small rip off shooting range.

 

Regardless, I hit the bulls eye about 6 times out of 8. A few shots went through the same hole, dead on! My grouping was about 3" at 25 yards.

 

But, when I get my scope next week, I am going on a camping trip to PA. I will try and post what type of accuracy I am really getting at a 2 too 3 hundred yards range.

 

I hope to be impressed!

 

If anyone can tell me a grouping size of shots that you are getting with the scope at 2 and 3 hundred yards, I would appreciate it.

 

PS- I have the 21.8'' barrel, I am sure that will affect accuracy between sizes.

Edited August 26, 2007 by Drinking Beer

[IndyArms 10,186]

Dont get your hopes up too high... I am not trying to burst your bubble so much as give a little bit of reality check to you. Its a illing weapon designed to hit minute of dirtbag at those ranges and beyond.

 

If you are going to be using milsurp or "plinking" ammo, you are not going to be impressed, I dont think. The rifle should give you 3-4 inch groups at 100 yards and then they will open up normally at the further distances. It is NOT A SNIPER RIFLE. Hell, I have a PSL and I am happy when I can shoot inside a 10" circle at 400 yards with that!!

 

Shooting cans off a fencepost at 50 yards... yeah, it will do that every time... got a woodchuck you need dispatched? It will turn the critter inside out without any trouble out to 75... beyond that... he might get lucky. Probably NOT... but he might...

 

If you want to run expensive loads through the rifle, I am very confident it will group tighter yet... but do you really want to spend a dollar or more per round to verify what it can or cant do? Again, these rifles were made to shoot center of mass on a human sized target and that was all... that was good enough.

 

It is an AK, the most reliable platform going. it will not let you down if you do not ask of it more than it is capable...

 

[fossten 1]

Dont get your hopes up too high... I am not trying to burst your bubble so much as give a little bit of reality check to you. Its a illing weapon designed to hit minute of dirtbag at those ranges and beyond.

 

If you are going to be using milsurp or "plinking" ammo, you are not going to be impressed, I dont think. The rifle should give you 3-4 inch groups at 100 yards and then they will open up normally at the further distances. It is NOT A SNIPER RIFLE. Hell, I have a PSL and I am happy when I can shoot inside a 10" circle at 400 yards with that!!

 

Shooting cans off a fencepost at 50 yards... yeah, it will do that every time... got a woodchuck you need dispatched? It will turn the critter inside out without any trouble out to 75... beyond that... he might get lucky. Probably NOT... but he might...

 

If you want to run expensive loads through the rifle, I am very confident it will group tighter yet... but do you really want to spend a dollar or more per round to verify what it can or cant do? Again, these rifles were made to shoot center of mass on a human sized target and that was all... that was good enough.

 

It is an AK, the most reliable platform going. it will not let you down if you do not ask of it more than it is capable...

 

Your post is a little confusing, Indy. First you say that the Saiga is designed to hit a human at "those distances and beyond". I assume you meant the previous post which referenced 200-300 yards. Then you describe using it as a varmint rifle, but only at short range? If I'm buying a Saiga it's because I can't afford a FAL or a PTR91, so why would I then (as you point out) waste a dollar a round shooting rodents? I'd sooner test it with good ammo to see what it can do at what distances so that I can be prepared for "zombie attacks." If I'm going to shoot varmints, I'm not wasting .308 ammo. Is it common practice to get that close to a woodchuck these days? If so, I'm nailing that sucker with my 10/22 at a nickel a round. I get .5 inch groups at 50 yards with that.

 

I intend to make my own loads for the Saiga. I want MOA accuracy combined with lower cost.

Edited August 26, 2007 by fossten

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

I intend to make my own loads for the Saiga. I want MOA accuracy combined with lower cost.

 

Good luck with that...

Minute of dirtbag, to me anyway, would imply hitting something like a dinner plate out to maybe 150 yards or more with typical shooting conditions and the stock sights.

I think you're looking at about a 2-3moa gun at best, and unless you're looking into a scope that doesn't have the typical POSP parallax issues I think you're going to stay in about that accuracy range. If you look at the ak design you've got a gas tube above the bbl that expands at a different rate, a stamped steel receiver, and a bbl and chamber that are more about working in field conditions than they are about perfectly seating bullets into the lands for top accuracy. I'm not putting the saiga down, because it's accuracy hangs with the standard issue FAL's and HK's (maybe a bit worse, but still battle rifle worthy). A battle rifle is designed to run by pissing on it after pulling it out of a swamp.

 

Now the above is not to say that your loads won't shoot MOA with a different gun, but the saiga is not that gun. If you shoot consecutive shots off a cold bbl (over a number of days) you might find that it really will shoot near MOA groups (mine does 1.5moa for 5 shots over 5 days). That should encourage you if you're thinking of it as a deer rifle. The downside is that cold group was about 3 inches to the lower left of the center of the hot "groups" that I proceeded to continue to shoot each day on other targets.

 

So here's the real upside of reloading... As you get into shooting more and more you will realize that relatively inexpensive and very accurate 1000 yard guns (Remy Savage and even NEF heavy bbls) have standard chambers in 308. So, if round out your collection with a couple of 1/4 moa tack drivers you can easily find them in 308. Then you can make primo ammo for your bolt guns and use surplus components for the saiga. What you'll find is that the bolt gun will put the worst of your reloads into 1moa and you can ring steel with cheap stuff with either the saiga or the bolt gun (just out to different ranges). For under 2 grand you have a compatible auto and bolt gun combination in 308 that can serve damn near any need you can find, and your reloading bench allows you to load bullets that will take anything from prairie dogs to elk, and cheapo stuff to practice enough to be good.

 

As for downside, the saiga shoots accurately to ranges that the x39 round might have the energy to do just fine for small deer sized targets and below. You're paying for the powder to fill a 308 case, and you have a higher cost for mags and the initial s308 purchase.

[IndyArms 10,186]

Your post is a little confusing, Indy. First you say that the Saiga is designed to hit a human at "those distances and beyond". I assume you meant the previous post which referenced 200-300 yards.

 

Yes, that is correct. I meant human sized targets at 200-300 meters and beyond.

 

Then you describe using it as a varmint rifle, but only at short range?

 

Kinda... I meant it would not be super accurate as a varmint rifle out at long ranges, but could function as one at a close range. (As would ANY rifle... ) again, as above... meant to hit man sized targets... and the woodchuck reference was only to point out TARGET size at that range, we can use WINEBOTTLE instead of woodchuck if you would prefer...

 

Although, as I have pondered this a little more, With my S308, I have acheived a nice 1" wide by 2" tall group of 10 rounds at 75M with the irons. And that certainly would hit any woodchuck/winebottle sized target That was uzing portuguese milsurp. really quite accurate stuff. I cant say the same for the wolf, however. The Wolf has not been as accurate in my particular rifle.

 

If I'm buying a Saiga it's because I can't afford a FAL or a PTR91, so why would I then (as you point out) waste a dollar a round shooting rodents? I'd sooner test it with good ammo to see what it can do at what distances so that I can be prepared for "zombie attacks." If I'm going to shoot varmints, I'm not wasting .308 ammo. Is it common practice to get that close to a woodchuck these days? If so, I'm nailing that sucker with my 10/22 at a nickel a round. I get .5 inch groups at 50 yards with that.

 

I meant that with GOOD ammo... a dollar a round or more... the rifle will give you far better groups than the milsurp and plinking quality of ammo, and that was all I meant about that. My remark on expensive ammo had nothing to do with varmint hunting, only that it would/should group better at longer ranges.

 

I hope this helps to clairify what I was saying.

I got nothing against any Saigas accuracy. I own many of them, several of each of some flavors... and love to shoot them all. I just constantly feel the need to remind new saiga owners that these rifles do have limits, and to be aware of them. Simple as that.

 

 

[mccumber1916 1]

in other words...

you can't turn it onto a psl type rifle other than looks

 

which is exactly what i was gonna get one for and given this same warning

i don't know that it's bubble bursting...

hell... it was to me BUT i'm glad i was informed before i spent alot of money

[Drinking Beer 12]

Thanks for the reality cheek fellows,

 

I was hoping to us the saiga as a deer rifle. but I guess now I will lower my expectations.

 

I just hope that I can at least make due with more expensive and quality ammo and get a little accuracy at 200-300 yards.

 

I know now that this rifle was probably not the best choice for accuracy like a bolt action, but where the hell else can you get a brand new reliable semi 308 for cheep!

 

I just wanted the semi auto because I do a lot of camping, its nice to have 8 fast rounds to blast at grumpy old beers, and a fast follow up shot on the deer that decided not to die on the first shot.

 

Don't worry animal lovers, I eat what I shoot!

 

I just don't get why they would mislabel this rifle and call it a "Self-Loading Hunting Carbine" if its really not that great for the hunt.

Edited August 26, 2007 by Drinking Beer

[mccumber1916 1]

seems like it ought to be a fine deer gun

besides... they're bigger than rodents

[quinci956 1]

It is true that this is not and was not intended to be a sniper rifle. If you want to hit a milk jug at a 100 yards it is fine.

It was designed to be quick,, fairly accurate at moderate distances, and extremely reliable. If you evere happen to need it for the "Zombie" attack I would be willing to bet that when the adrenalin starts flowing and you feel like you are looking down a small tunnel, you won't look for any sights. You will shoulder the rifle look at the target with both eyes and start pulling the trigger until the threat is over. Your 308 is excelent for point shooting under preasure as long as you remember to flip the saftey. If the worst ever happens this is the rifle you want. The magazine will be empty and you will not have heard the first shot. I practice moving and point shooting with mine. When you are stressed you will go on auto pilot so program your auto pilot system by practicing. Your 308 Saiga will not let you down. The weapon is extremely reliable and the 308 round is very nasty.

[IndyArms 10,186]

The Saiga .308 would make a FINE deer rifle!!! A deer is about the same size as a human being, when thinking center of mass... and It should be able to hit an 8" circle ( Vitals area on a deer) without any problems.

 

Mind you... I personally would not use this on deer outside of 200 yards... I would want a SUB-MOA rifle for that, only because I am of the quick/clean, one shot kill hunting mentality, and I would not be confident that the Saiga could do that at greater than 200 yards.

 

If you have good ammo, and practice and you CAN shoot that well with yours, by all means, hunt with it. I am just saying for ME PRERSONALLY I would not use it that way, nor have I practiced at those ranges with mine to see if I could. I cannot hunt with a rifle in the southern zone of NY state anyways, so for me, it is a moot point.

 

There is nothing wrong with the Saiga .308 as a deer rifle. Especially at ranges closer than 200... it will be awesome

 

If you want a PSL... you could buy one brand new for about $700.00 if you shop around... Do the math with a Saiga .308, and the conversion parts, to get one to LOOK like a PSL, and see how close you come in expenditures to just buying the real thing outright... Of course the Saiga PSL would be cheaper, but not too much... I *WOULD* trust my PSL on a deer at out to 400 yards... I can consistently hit a 10" spinner at that range with mine, with wolf ammo... If I used my reloads, I could get even better groups... so the PSL would do the job out 400 - 500.

[quinci956 1]

The Saiga .308 would make a FINE deer rifle!!! A deer is about the same size as a human being, when thinking center of mass... and It should be able to hit an 8" circle ( Vitals area on a deer) without any problems.

 

Mind you... I personally would not use this on deer outside of 200 yards... I would want a SUB-MOA rifle for that, only because I am of the quick/clean, one shot kill hunting mentality, and I would not be confident that the Saiga could do that at greater than 200 yards.

 

If you have good ammo, and practice and you CAN shoot that well with yours, by all means, hunt with it. I am just saying for ME PRERSONALLY I would not use it that way, nor have I practiced at those ranges with mine to see if I could. I cannot hunt with a rifle in the southern zone of NY state anyways, so for me, it is a moot point.

 

There is nothing wrong with the Saiga .308 as a deer rifle. Especially at ranges closer than 200... it will be awesome

 

If you want a PSL... you could buy one brand new for about $700.00 if you shop around... Do the math with a Saiga .308, and the conversion parts, to get one to LOOK like a PSL, and see how close you come in expenditures to just buying the real thing outright... Of course the Saiga PSL would be cheaper, but not too much... I *WOULD* trust my PSL on a deer at out to 400 yards... I can consistently hit a 10" spinner at that range with mine, with wolf ammo... If I used my reloads, I could get even better groups... so the PSL would do the job out 400 - 500.

Ditto Indy,

This would be a great brush gun in areas where your stand is in a thicker wooded are where you don't have those 300 yard shots. It would also be good if you hunt with dogs. I always take a scoped bolt gun, shotgun, and 30-30 lever action when I go to a new area so I will have a choice depending on terrain. I will be replacing the 30-30 with a Saiga 308.

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

Depending on where you live and the distance you must shoot the saiga is a decent deer rifle. It's as accurate as many of the lever actions I see getting sighted in this time of year, and way better than any non rifled slug gun.

 

The saiga with a 4x scope is good to 200 yards, just be sure to sight it in on a cold bbl over the course of a couple of trips to the range in order to really know where the bullet will land. I would think you could go to 300 yards with it. My local range goes to 200 and it does within 8 inches there consistently, and most times if it does not it's my fault. My savage 10fp will keep them within 1.5 inches at 200 yards all day.

 

A PSL is likely a step up in accuracy from the saiga for sure, but for a couple bucks more you could get at DPMS 308 (with bolt gun accuracy) or a bolt gun/glass combo. Unfortunately there is no $500 cure to the one gun issue if that gun must go beyond 200 yards, have reliable semi auto, and not heft around a huge amount of weight. The saiga strikes a decent balance and does so for under $500 with a 4x scope on top of it. If I only had $500 to spend and absolutely needed to shoot deer to 400 yards, I'd get a savage package gun in 25-06 or 270 and pocket the change.

[G O B 3,516]

Great deer rifle out to 150 yds (if you use good ammo, and sight in "cold"). Great hog gun. Great Zombie gun. NOT a target rifle.

[texlurch 0]

From most reports the PSL is not that much more accurate. My 308 must be an abberation because my worst group with milsurp at 100 yds is not much bigger than 2". Most are one ragged 1 to 1.5" hole with 8 shots. If I rush and get the barrel warmed up, it will shoot a vertical string, with most if not all holes touching.

 

And my cold barrel shots are pretty much POA. At least within my skill level.

 

Now it would not shoot that well stock, the factory trigger sucks for me. But with the RSA it is a completely different rifle.

 

The PSL versions are not sniper rifles. They are designated marksman weapons, designed to throw out a volume of aimed fire at a longer distance than the AK's can reach. The Soviet military doesn't have a "sniper" rifle like what the West uses.

[banshee 69]

The only AK that I have had that ever had any firing pin problems was a M78 Valmet. The bastard broke 4 pins in less than a year, and none of them was from dry firing.

[fossten 1]

Buck and Indy,

 

I guess after reflection what I'm experiencing is some cognitive dissonance...

 

I want to believe that I purchased a .308 caliber battle rifle that is at least somewhat comparable (after conversion) to an FAL or a PTR91 but for less cost. Whether or not it's a sniper rifle isn't as important to me. I know that when you factor in mags and conversion costs, the overall cost approaches the $1,000 mark, but it's easier for me to take that large amount in smaller bite sized pieces than it is to save the whole thing, so I opted for the Saiga. I'm still below that mark.

 

When I hear that I shouldn't expect to hit beyond 100-200 yards that is discouraging. My AK is able to do that, and it's a freaking Century for crying out loud. The Saiga is new factory and I expect it to be a better rifle.

[IndyArms 10,186]

When I hear that I shouldn't expect to hit beyond 100-200 yards that is discouraging. My AK is able to do that, and it's a freaking Century for crying out loud. The Saiga is new factory and I expect it to be a better rifle.

 

 

Umm... Hit WHAT specifically at 200 yards? Deer? Oh, it will hit them... and at 200, I would expect a decent kill shot... 300? 400? I would say a little risky for a one shot clean kill. NOT IMPOSSIBLE, and not unheard of... just probably not every time...

 

 

What else do you need to hit at 200 if that was not the topic you were thinking of?

 

I intend to make my own loads for the Saiga. I want MOA accuracy combined with lower cost.

 

Again... THATS asking too much... The Saiga .308 will most liekly never acheive MOA no matter WHAT ammo you run through it. As mentioned above... 2 - 3 MOA...sure... all day long.

 

I think you're looking at about a 2-3moa gun at best, and unless you're looking into a scope that doesn't have the typical POSP parallax issues I think you're going to stay in about that accuracy range. If you look at the ak design you've got a gas tube above the bbl that expands at a different rate, a stamped steel receiver, and a bbl and chamber that are more about working in field conditions than they are about perfectly seating bullets into the lands for top accuracy. I'm not putting the saiga down, because it's accuracy hangs with the standard issue FAL's and HK's (maybe a bit worse, but still battle rifle worthy). A battle rifle is designed to run by pissing on it after pulling it out of a swamp.

 

Now the above is not to say that your loads won't shoot MOA with a different gun, but the saiga is not that gun. If you shoot consecutive shots off a cold bbl (over a number of days) you might find that it really will shoot near MOA groups (mine does 1.5moa for 5 shots over 5 days). That should encourage you if you're thinking of it as a deer rifle. The downside is that cold group was about 3 inches to the lower left of the center of the hot "groups" that I proceeded to continue to shoot each day on other targets.

 

So here's the real upside of reloading... As you get into shooting more and more you will realize that relatively inexpensive and very accurate 1000 yard guns (Remy Savage and even NEF heavy bbls) have standard chambers in 308. So, if round out your collection with a couple of 1/4 moa tack drivers you can easily find them in 308. Then you can make primo ammo for your bolt guns and use surplus components for the saiga. What you'll find is that the bolt gun will put the worst of your reloads into 1moa and you can ring steel with cheap stuff with either the saiga or the bolt gun (just out to different ranges). For under 2 grand you have a compatible auto and bolt gun combination in 308 that can serve damn near any need you can find, and your reloading bench allows you to load bullets that will take anything from prairie dogs to elk, and cheapo stuff to practice enough to be good.

 

As for downside, the saiga shoots accurately to ranges that the x39 round might have the energy to do just fine for small deer sized targets and below. You're paying for the powder to fill a 308 case, and you have a higher cost for mags and the initial s308 purchase.

 

Fossten, Did you ACTUALLY *READ* this post quoted above when it was written? It sums things up very well...

 

 

[fossten 1]

When I hear that I shouldn't expect to hit beyond 100-200 yards that is discouraging. My AK is able to do that, and it's a freaking Century for crying out loud. The Saiga is new factory and I expect it to be a better rifle.

 

 

Umm... Hit WHAT specifically at 200 yards? Deer? Oh, it will hit them... and at 200, I would expect a decent kill shot... 300? 400? I would say a little risky for a one shot clean kill. NOT IMPOSSIBLE, and not unheard of... just probably not every time...

 

 

What else do you need to hit at 200 if that was not the topic you were thinking of?

 

I intend to make my own loads for the Saiga. I want MOA accuracy combined with lower cost.

 

Again... THATS asking too much... The Saiga .308 will most liekly never acheive MOA no matter WHAT ammo you run through it. As mentioned above... 2 - 3 MOA...sure... all day long.

 

I think you're looking at about a 2-3moa gun at best, and unless you're looking into a scope that doesn't have the typical POSP parallax issues I think you're going to stay in about that accuracy range. If you look at the ak design you've got a gas tube above the bbl that expands at a different rate, a stamped steel receiver, and a bbl and chamber that are more about working in field conditions than they are about perfectly seating bullets into the lands for top accuracy. I'm not putting the saiga down, because it's accuracy hangs with the standard issue FAL's and HK's (maybe a bit worse, but still battle rifle worthy). A battle rifle is designed to run by pissing on it after pulling it out of a swamp.

 

Now the above is not to say that your loads won't shoot MOA with a different gun, but the saiga is not that gun. If you shoot consecutive shots off a cold bbl (over a number of days) you might find that it really will shoot near MOA groups (mine does 1.5moa for 5 shots over 5 days). That should encourage you if you're thinking of it as a deer rifle. The downside is that cold group was about 3 inches to the lower left of the center of the hot "groups" that I proceeded to continue to shoot each day on other targets.

 

So here's the real upside of reloading... As you get into shooting more and more you will realize that relatively inexpensive and very accurate 1000 yard guns (Remy Savage and even NEF heavy bbls) have standard chambers in 308. So, if round out your collection with a couple of 1/4 moa tack drivers you can easily find them in 308. Then you can make primo ammo for your bolt guns and use surplus components for the saiga. What you'll find is that the bolt gun will put the worst of your reloads into 1moa and you can ring steel with cheap stuff with either the saiga or the bolt gun (just out to different ranges). For under 2 grand you have a compatible auto and bolt gun combination in 308 that can serve damn near any need you can find, and your reloading bench allows you to load bullets that will take anything from prairie dogs to elk, and cheapo stuff to practice enough to be good.

 

As for downside, the saiga shoots accurately to ranges that the x39 round might have the energy to do just fine for small deer sized targets and below. You're paying for the powder to fill a 308 case, and you have a higher cost for mags and the initial s308 purchase.

 

Fossten, Did you ACTUALLY *READ* this post quoted above when it was written? It sums things up very well...

 

 

 

Okay...

 

First of all, Indy, I DID *READ* the post quoted above. You will note that the quote of mine posted above that one is out of order with that post. In other words, I posted the MOA comment BEFORE your lengthy and informative explanation, so how could I possibly have read your post BEFORE I posted that one? There is no need to flame me here, I'm really trying to learn. If you're getting frustrated over what I'm asking then maybe somebody else should respond while you calm down.

 

That being said, in response to your question, I want to be able to defend myself with this rifle. Now, since we humans don't typically get attacked by deer these days, and since I never said I want to hunt deer with the Saiga, it should be simple for you to narrow down what kind of target I could be referring to. I want a "battle rifle." In fact, I believe I already said BATTLE RIFLE. I even used a comparison with the FAL and PTR91. Did you *READ* my post above (to coin a phrase)? So with that application in mind, I want to be able to hit a TARGET (think about what kind of target a battle rifle is used for) at 200-300 yards or better. Self-defense. Protecting my homestead. You'd think with a forum full of 2nd Amendment advocates I wouldn't have to spell out word for word what I intend to do with my rifle.

 

If you are saying that I can't shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards, no biggie. But I'd like to be able to shoot for group (2-3 MOA) at 100 yards.

 

I was going to say thanks for the help, but since you decided to flame me inappropriately, I guess I'll just go shoot my rifle and stop asking questions.

 

Jeez.

[SaigaNoobie 66]

I'd say that hitting a 1ft^2 target at 300-500 yards everytime is VERY probable with a .308 saiga that you've used and therefore know how to aim. If you've sighted in for those ranges, and know how to adjust and have a precise range to the 1'x1' metal plate you should be able to connect with every scope-aimed shot. If say, a deer were to raise up on it's hind legs and face directly towards you, you'd have no problem hitting it. BUT you'd never (beyond luck) be able to shoot it and follow up with a shot through the same entrance hole.

 

Now, 500 yards is a LONG way to shoot anything.... In this day and age with talk of 1000yrd shots with bolt-action 7mm magnums and .338 Lupua mags and .50BMGs, 500yrds doesn't sound very far but I was at a 400 yard range with my iron-sigh Mosin Nagant picking off Bowling pins and they were TINY at that distance I mean, 400 yards is a shit ton of distance. You'd never see a Deer at that distance if it were wearing camouflage... We had to go to a Back-Yard Gun Club range that ran down some power lines to get 400yrds of un-interrupted view. My college room-mate, who's an excellent marksman (national-champ black-powder rifleman at 50 & 100yrds Under 18 and in group comp. 18 & over) could hit the bowling pins 4/5 times with my nagant which shoots about 1.5 MOA at 100yrds using surplus ammo... (I've got a finnish Mosin made by Sako in 1943)... The point of that anecdote is that a 400 yrd shot is longer than you will probably EVER have to shoot in any "battle rifle" situation and is sure a hell of a lot further than I'd ever attempt to shoot a deer... I know the bullet is traveling faster than sound, but it seems to take an entire second to reach the target even at 2500FPS. BLAM!.................Hit. By the Time you know if you hit the target or not, you could have chambered a second round in a Bolt. BTW watching a 7.62x54R through a spotting scope as it flies toward the target 400yrds out is incredible fun and compared to a .22-250 (which is what my RM was targeting in) it looks like a howitzer.

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

I agree with SaigaNoob that Nagants are pretty accurate guns depending on their condition (corroded and shot out is another matter) and the reworked sako versions are awesome shooters. I think hitting a one foot square target with the saiga at 500 yards is about a 50/50 thing even with decent optics. The gun just isn't up to it accuracy wise.

 

Your post does raise a great point however... If someone wants to ring steel at 500 yards there are plenty of sub $200 guns that are up to the task. The K31 and old Husky's come to mind (though the Husky's are a tough find at that price these days). The K31 is actually pretty quick for follow up shots due to the straight pull. If you are willing to "sacrafice" one to do a fully epoxy bed job on it, I suspect it can really drive some tacks on par with some of the $500 plus guns that are more commonly used for those purposes. The sako and tikka versions of the nagats will also be had for around $300 and they are equal to, if not better than the K31 for accuracy.

 

This post has me thinking that a 7.62x54 saiga would be a cool thing to pair up with an m44 if a guy were just starting a collection. Now if we just had a 54 saiga...

 

Just one other thought, if you're defending yourself then that probably lowers the range. Maybe the well planned defense would require some well placed long shots with evasive movements, but if you're like most typical citizens you wouldn't recognize the threat out past 200 yards (I know I wouldn't be able to recognize the bad guy from the other guy past that range). It's surely no biggie to misinterpret a post, I'm a moron, so it takes me a good three or four times to read something before I understand it (less to have an opinon about it however;-))

Edited August 27, 2007 by buckandaquarterquarterstaff

[IndyArms 10,186]

Fossten....

 

First of all, Indy, I DID *READ* the post quoted above. You will note that the quote of mine posted above that one is out of order with that post. In other words, I posted the MOA comment BEFORE your lengthy and informative explanation, so how could I possibly have read your post BEFORE I posted that one? There is no need to flame me here, I'm really trying to learn. If you're getting frustrated over what I'm asking then maybe somebody else should respond while you calm down.

 

Not frustrated by any means... and I am seriously NOT trying to flame you. If I misquoted within a timeline - my bad. I was referring to BUCKANDAQUARTERSTAFFS post when I asked if you "read it" . I am just trying to be as specific and honest with you as I can be. I LOVE all things saiga, and as a moderator here it is my job to help out and try to make things as smooth as possible. again... I was NOT trying to flame. ( and please do not return the favor!! LOL )

 

That being said, in response to your question, I want to be able to defend myself with this rifle. Now, since we humans don't typically get attacked by deer these days, and since I never said I want to hunt deer with the Saiga, it should be simple for you to narrow down what kind of target I could be referring to. I want a "battle rifle." In fact, I believe I already said BATTLE RIFLE. I even used a comparison with the FAL and PTR91. Did you *READ* my post above (to coin a phrase)? So with that application in mind, I want to be able to hit a TARGET (think about what kind of target a battle rifle is used for) at 200-300 yards or better. Self-defense. Protecting my homestead. You'd think with a forum full of 2nd Amendment advocates I wouldn't have to spell out word for word what I intend to do with my rifle.

 

If you are saying that I can't shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards, no biggie. But I'd like to be able to shoot for group (2-3 MOA) at 100 yards.

 

I was going to say thanks for the help, but since you decided to flame me inappropriately, I guess I'll just go shoot my rifle and stop asking questions.

 

I do *NOW* understand what you want to do with it, and I think all my previous posts should lean towards your success in that undertaking. Also, you should by all means be able to acheive 2 - 3 MOA with the Saiga...

 

I DO NOT believe that I flamed you. I do not think my comments were innapropriate... I would agree... by all means go shoot that baby... see what it can do at 100, 200, 300, 400 yards and you will know without any doubts what your rifle is capable of... That is the only valid test there truly is. I am sure it will not dissapoint, as long as you know what its capable of from the beginning.

 

When you get some good range data, Please share it. This question comes up very often. a good source of range data would be most excellent! I would also be happy to sticky it up at the top of the .308 section!!

 

You are not the first, and I know you will not be the last to wonder what a Saiga .308 is capable of!!

 

Again... Sorry that you think I "flamed" you. It was not my intent. I just wanted to be as specific and thorough as possible.

 

[SaigaNoobie 66]

In response to Buck And a Quarter Quarter Staff, you made my point better than I did. The Saiga .308 is NOT on Par with a good SVD and even SVD's were maxed at 600yrd effective range. These aren't supposed to hit coke cans at a quarter mile.... they're supposed to hit Deer, Bear, Elk, Moose, etc. etc. at 25-250yrds..... If you want to go out to the Mid-west and shoot Large game from 1200yrds, Saigas are NOT for you. If you want to hit deer at 200yrds, you'll be great. I read somewhere that the average distance that deer were shot at was under 50yrds, so why the concern over a 500yrd accuracy? Next time you go to your hunting locations, take a range-finder and look all around you. If you're in the Eastern states/Appalachia/Blue-ridge mtns, you'll be damn lucky to see anything over 200yrds. I was out hunting Crows and Groundhogs with my RM and his .22-250 (his Varmint gun). I was the spotter and range guy. He had a 313yrd shot down into a valley. We had spent the day before scoping his rifle in at 100, 200, 300, 400 yrds. This gun shot 65grain bullets at close to 3500 FPS.... I mean lightning fast and it was shooting 2-3" at 400yrds. Even with all his preparation, he still didn't hit that crow, and he's a damn good shot.... What does this tell me? Even "Tack-Drivers" won't hit their target every-time, even when you know the distance, there's no wind, and you're a pot-shot.

 

We put too much emphasis on yardages we'll NEVER take a shot at. And if you REALLY want to shoot a deer at 400yrds, get a bolt-action .308, scope it up and take it out.... but I doubt you'll ever have or make the shot regardless of what you're shooting. Chances are, if you shoot big game, it will be well under 200yrds.

 

Oh, Wasn't this thread about dry-firing at one point? And I bought my Sako M39 for $120.

Edited August 28, 2007 by SaigaNoobie

[fossten 1]

Thanks for clearing things up guys. Sorry if I got a little frustrating. I'm still figuring this stuff out. And thanks for the extra tips on long range bolt rifles. I think I'll look for one of those as well. I've applied for my C&R license so I can probably get an M39 for cheap.