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vefrancis

HC MAgs, Just a bullet guide?

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Tomorrow hopefully I'm going to get my .223. I want to use high capacity mags, with out making a major conversion. Can I just install a bullet guide as shown on here and have the ability to use just about any hc mags? Do I have to do a "full" conversion? I'm really trying to stay away from using te surefire.

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No matter your high cap magazine origin, inserting them in a factory stock Saiga puts you in violation of the 922r law.

 

If you use a US made magazine, you only need to replace one part on the list with a US made one for compliance.

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Would the Dinzag bullet guide be considered a US part count and make it all legal?

 

It doesn't replace an imported, listed part. The problem is the count of listed, imported parts (no more than 10), not the number of US parts.

 

Bill

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The Galils, regardless of condition, are still considered 3 imported parts.

 

Promags will get you 3 parts, then swap in a modified US FCG for 2 more parts.

 

If you want to use any mag, swap the FCG (+2) , piston (+1) and US AK Handguards (+1).

 

FCG swap on an unconverted Saiga only counts as 2 parts because the factory trigger outside the receiver and the wishbone linkage are both still used. The hammer and disconnector are your compliance parts. You also swap out the large portion of the trigger piece that has the hook(s), as it's a good idea to swap out the whole set.

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I tried to put together a little overview of the finer points of 922R. You can see it by clicking here. Bottom line is that if you use any high capacity mags, you'll need to comly with 922R, regardless of their origin.

 

Jim

Edited by Navy87Guy

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If you only need one more US part, you could get the Tapco Galil style handguard for the Saiga which is made specifically to fit on the 7.62x39 and .223 Saigas without any gunsmithing necessary. Or you could buy one of Dinzag's no gunsmithing handguard retainters and any US made handguard of your choice.

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So to use Hc mags in my new Saiga all I need to swap out is the handguard? Can you link what handguard you would buy?

So long as it's a US made magazine with 3 US made parts.

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So to use Hc mags in my new Saiga all I need to swap out is the handguard? Can you link what handguard you would buy?

 

It all depends on what mags you are using.

 

First we need to be straight on what your set up is.

 

Are you using the stock sporter-style rifle -- with no other mods? If so, then your rifle has 14 parts that count toward compliance. As long as you're using the 10-rd stock mags it's not an issue. Once you switch to a high capacity mag, you have to comply with 922R. That means you need to find at least 4 US-made parts.

 

If you are using US-made magazines (ProMag or Thermold) then you get credit for 3 US parts. That means you need just one more to be legal.

 

If you are not using those mags, then you may get 0, 1 or 2 parts of credit, depending on the mag. A completely foreign mag is 0 US parts. The follower and the base plate each count as 1 part. So be sure you know the origin of the parts on your mags.

 

Even with all US-mags, you'll need one more part. One option is to install the TAPCO Galil-style handguard for the Saiga. It's pricey ($60) but it's a drop-in part and it counts for compliance.

 

A cheaper option that requires more work is to install a US-made gas piston. That takes about 15 minutes. I had one custom made by Hot Barrel over on Gunco.net. He's not the fastest, but the piston was excellent quality -- and it was $15 delivered.

 

If you aren't using the US mags, then you need to do both parts -- and maybe more. Other options would include replacing the hammer and trigger with parts from a US FCG. That trigger needs mods to make it work -- and then you can't reuse it if you ever do the conversion.

 

922R compliance is a balancing act -- just make sure you know how many parts you need to replace and keep the count straight. It's almost a non-issue when you do the full conversion (food for thought!)

 

Jim

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It sounds like if you use the Tapco US made handguard, and the factory stock, you can insert the completely US made extended mags and your parts count will drop to 10 and you'll be OK. Then if you insert a factory Saiga mag, your parts count will go back up to 13, but it will still be in a legal configuration so it will still be OK.

 

The issue might be that installing the bullet guide will make it capable of accepting foreign made high capacity mags. I don't know if this will be a problem though, (especially if you don't own any such mags) so it would be good to hear some other opinions.

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The issue might be that installing the bullet guide will make it capable of accepting foreign made high capacity mags. I don't know if this will be a problem though, (especially if you don't own any such mags) so it would be good to hear some other opinions.

 

It's not the ability to use high caps that matters - it's the actual act of installing them. There are plenty of high capacity mags that will work with an unmodified Saiga (Surefire and the Thermomold are the primary examples) - so if mere potential were the issue, then everyone would have to comply with 922R all the time. The presumption is that you won't install them, since you have a "sporting" rifle. If you do, it's no longer considered suitable for sporting and it's subject to 922R.

 

You were correct - all US-mags and a handguard will make you high capacity legal. If you use the 10-rd factory mag, you're "sporting" again and 922R doesn't apply. If you think the handguard is too expensive (or too ugly!!) then the gas piston is an easy and hidden alternative that takes 15 minutes to install.

 

Jim

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Thanks for all the help on this, you guys are great annd very patient! I'm gonna go with the Tapco handguard you listed . Also what Promag model do I get? The $14.99 dollar one from Copes? Do I have to add the Dinzag bullet guide for these? Where do you get them? Any that says .233AK ? Would surefire be legal with the handuard swap? Thanks again and I wont bug ya guys again!

Edited by saoirse

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get the pro mag for AK in .223 calibur. You don't need a bullet guide for these. Just use a file or dremel tool to make the top left side of the mag similar to the factory 10 round mag so the magazine will go all the up and seat in the gun properly. These promag's work perfect but do fit a little loose side to side in the gun so I built up the side of the magazine so they fit more snugly but they did shoot and load perfectly without the work to fix the width of the magazine to fit snug in receiver. The promag's are are just a few thousands of an inch narrower than the factory mag is the reason they are a little sloppy side to side movement.

 

Thanks for all the help on this, you guys are great annd very patient! I'm gonna go with the Tapco handguard you listed . Also what Promag model do I get? The $14.99 dollar one from Copes? Do I have to add the Dinzag bullet guide for these? Where do you get them? Any that says .233AK ? Would surefire be legal with the handuard swap? Thanks again and I wont bug ya guys again!

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Would surefire be legal with the handuard swap? Thanks again and I wont bug ya guys again!

 

The Surefires are not US-made mags -- they are recycled eastern European mags. Unless you change the follower and base plate, then they won't count as any US parts. So they would not be legal with just the handguard mod.

 

Don't worry about asking questions - you aren't "bugging" anyone. The best way to learn is to read and ask. One of the best things about this site compared to others is how helpful people are. So ask away!

 

Jim

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Hey guys, newb here. I picked up a Saiga .223 and just put the featured ATI Skele-stock from Gilberts on it, but ordered a .223 mag from Cope's before reading about any compatibility issues online. Well I got the mag today (http://www.copesdist.com/images/Bulgarianblack30rnd.223.jpg), a bulgarian waffly type.

 

I was amazed. It fed just fine right out of the box. Is it only the US made .223 AK mags that have this trouble?

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Ya know, this is all speculation here as far as the situation with 922r goes. I mean, any part, foreign or domestic, looks pretty much the same on an AK, and you'd have to have some kind of Nazi official wanting you to tear down your gun just so the bastard could thoroughly inspect all the parts to make sure they were "U.S. made." Hell, if the parts weren't stamped "made in USA" they could have been made in my shop, thus being a domestic part. Ya know? I could claim I cut the wood and custom made some trigger parts and made a piston on my lathe, and how could said official argue with that, especially if you were firm on exactly which parts were made in the U.S. or not? And who would let said Gestapo official even touch your gun, unless you were in an extremely public place? And even then, he'd run the risk of getting a solid "Fuck you" on my behalf. I don't know about you guys, but I usually shoot up in the woods in a group with like-minded people, and if some jack-ass came snooping around with confiscation on his mind he might just find more opposition than he could handle. Not to say all my guns don't comply with 922r and the laws of my state, but I would be all over someone like that if they tried to pull some shit.

And another thing, does anyone evn know what the minimum and maximum penalty for having in you posession a firearm that isn't 922r compliant? I hear a lot about it but haven't got the straight dope on it yet.

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Hey guys, newb here. I picked up a Saiga .223 and just put the featured ATI Skele-stock from Gilberts on it, but ordered a .223 mag from Cope's before reading about any compatibility issues online. Well I got the mag today (http://www.copesdist.com/images/Bulgarianblack30rnd.223.jpg), a bulgarian waffly type.

 

I was amazed. It fed just fine right out of the box. Is it only the US made .223 AK mags that have this trouble?

 

I'm assuming it fed fine without the feed ramp mod? How well does it fit? Does it have side to side play like the Promags?

 

I've got replacement furniture and FCG in hand. I'd love to find mags that work right out of the box without more mods to the gun...

 

Thanks

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Very little side to side give, I felt it it but didn't really hear it. Feeding took a little getting used to- it misfed once, but I think that was just me since I've handled neither an AK or .223 rounds before and had that 'delicate' touch that new gun owners get. After getting used to the handling and feeding, she took it like a champ. ejected about 2 feet to my rear right. Haven't fired yet though. Ramp seems fine. Damn fine weapon.

 

Oh, lastly, for no reason other than boredom I found out the Airsoft AK-47 mags I have fit the Saiga reciever perfectly. Just thought it was kind of funny that those toymakers follow the specs so closely

Edited by dayan inikhaton

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Hey guys, newb here. I picked up a Saiga .223 and just put the featured ATI Skele-stock from Gilberts on it, but ordered a .223 mag from Cope's before reading about any compatibility issues online. Well I got the mag today (http://www.copesdist.com/images/Bulgarianblack30rnd.223.jpg), a bulgarian waffly type.

 

I was amazed. It fed just fine right out of the box. Is it only the US made .223 AK mags that have this trouble?

I was reading on another forum that the Bulgarian factory feed ramps are very thin, and the bulgy mags have more lip height on them to make up for this. This might explain why they feed w/o a ramp.

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hear any complaints about them?

If you're referring to Bulgarian AK mags, they work great in my AKs. I've not heard any complaints about them from anyone else, either.

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I was kinda wondering too. So you don't need a bullet guide for the Bulgarian ones huh? Just grind them to fit and rock and roll?

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Hoping this would work for me, I bought a Bulgarian 45 round waffle mag from Cope's. Unless I'm missing a couple of grinding areas, I will need a feed ramp to make it work.

 

I don't know if the 45 round mags are different than the 30's, but I doubt it.

 

I also ordered a pro-mag, but they're on back order right now.

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I have never seen any clear, authoritative statement that using a 20 or 30 round mag with a Saiga rifle violates federal law. I do not believe that there is any such statement, merely speculation. The mag is not part of the rifle. Inserting a mag into a rifle does not constitute assembling a rifle. A rifle that is sold with an eight round removable mag does not become a different rifle when a higher capacity magazine is used. 30 round mags for the Saiga x39 rifle were imported and sold by FFLs. I bought one from CDNN when I bought my Saiga. I am not aware that there were any legal issues concerning those mags, which were obviously intended to be used with the unmodified Saiga sold by U.S dealers. The Saiga is different from the standard SKS, which has an internal 10 round mag that is part of the rifle. When you remove that mag in order to use detachable mags, you are modifying the rifle. There are many people who like to lecture others on federal gun laws but who do not seem to have any credentials for doing so. A number of people have noted that prosecutions of any kind against private individuals under 922® are virtually non-existent. I am not attempting to interpret federal law. I am merely sceptical of those who do so, unless they are lawyers specializing in U.S. gun regulations.

 

Monomonk

 

 

I tried to put together a little overview of the finer points of 922R. You can see it by clicking here. Bottom line is that if you use any high capacity mags, you'll need to comly with 922R, regardless of their origin.

 

Jim

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