Accurizing Saiga

[dd03 0]

I was wondering if any gunsmith out there do accurizing work to the Saiga. Crowning the barrel, trueing the bolt, etc. If accuracy is good enough I want to use the Saiga 308 for precision shooting out to 800 yards or beyond. I figure after the custom work it'll still be cheaper than most rifles out there.

[fossten 1]

I was wondering if any gunsmith out there do accurizing work to the Saiga. Crowning the barrel, trueing the bolt, etc. If accuracy is good enough I want to use the Saiga 308 for precision shooting out to 800 yards or beyond. I figure after the custom work it'll still be cheaper than most rifles out there.

 

Don't forget to ship the barrel to 300 below when you're done.

[SOPMOD 254]

I was wondering if any gunsmith out there do accurizing work to the Saiga. Crowning the barrel, trueing the bolt, etc. If accuracy is good enough I want to use the Saiga 308 for precision shooting out to 800 yards or beyond. I figure after the custom work it'll still be cheaper than most rifles out there.

 

 

Trueing the bolt is not really the same kind of operation because the fit is dependent on the trunion for squareness but you can keep controlled headspace to increase accuracy if yours is out of spec for your favorite loads or easier yeat you can reload once fired brass that is fit and stretched to your chamber contour and headspace length.

 

This will give you the tools to recut your crown http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/Pro...il.aspx?p=18282

 

The rest of this equation revolves around how accurate a rifle you really want to achieve and how much money and ingenuity you have at your disposal with things like

 

a free floated barrel(sometimes a flat strap screwed to the receiver at the trunion but not connected to the barrel or gas block

 

a Lightweight adjustable trigger like the RSA unit http://www.redstararms.com/index.htm?488.htm&1

 

a barrel tensioning device that harmonically tuned your barrel from the gas block forward to reduce or even eliminate barrel whip and deformation during firing(pushes against the gas block when threaded down from the muzzle tensioning it like a guitar string)

 

Relieving barrel stresses by Cryongenic treatment(Saiga barrels are hammer forged on a mandrel so sometimes this doesn't do much but occasionally WOW!)

 

Squaring your sights and gas block to the receiver while it is clamped to a known level surface(it can alleviate barrel tnesion caused by even a mildly canted gas block)

 

Trimming or backing out your gas piston to achieve a perfect fit without added tension against the gas block and improving repeatability.

 

 

I don't know anyone who does this kind of work on Kalashnikov based weapons but there are a few on here who have used these ideas to great effect and there are a couple of Saigas and Veprs that turn in quarter sized groups right here on this board:)

Edited September 10, 2007 by SOPMOD

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

I was wondering if any gunsmith out there do accurizing work to the Saiga. Crowning the barrel, trueing the bolt, etc. If accuracy is good enough I want to use the Saiga 308 for precision shooting out to 800 yards or beyond. I figure after the custom work it'll still be cheaper than most rifles out there.

I'd say buy a more accurate gun from the get go, but...

 

If I were to do some things in order of ease and cost, they'd be:

lose the FSB and recrown (go scope only)

epoxy "bed" the front handguard and anything else that introduces variability

put in a nice RSA trigger

selectively deactivate the gas system with a custom block

 

All of the above should buy you some improvement in accuracy, but you'd lose semi auto. I think you'd be better served if you want a semi auto for this task to go with an AR type system, as that is a design with far more accuracy potential. A DPMS 308 costs less than a grand (without glass). For a bolt gun a savage 10FP goes for around $500 bucks and can hit dimes all day.

 

You could probably make some nice improvements for less than a couple hundred bucks, but there's no point in spending any more as it's not going to get you much farther.

[BobAsh 582]

$&1/4 is correct, start with a different gun. The AK gas system makes it tough to acheive real gains in accuracy.

[dasu 1]

$&1/4....funny!

[fossten 1]

All of the above should buy you some improvement in accuracy, but you'd lose semi auto. I think you'd be better served if you want a semi auto for this task to go with an AR type system, as that is a design with far more accuracy potential. A DPMS 308 costs less than a grand (without glass). For a bolt gun a savage 10FP goes for around $500 bucks and can hit dimes all day.

 

You could probably make some nice improvements for less than a couple hundred bucks, but there's no point in spending any more as it's not going to get you much farther.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that many people buy the Saiga (as I did) for a reliable yet less expensive (on the front end) option to the FAL, HK91, or M1A. I can afford $400 up front and then add mods as my budget allows, but coming up with $1,000 up front is much more difficult.

 

The AR system may be better in terms of fit and finish, and MAYBE accuracy, but you venture into the realm of questionable reliability with gas impingement. If you really want an AR system that's as reliable as the AK system, get an AR180B. Of course, you give up the .308 capability with that platform, in which case your stopping power diminishes beyond 300 yards/meters.

 

Bottom line: Everything's a tradeoff. I'll take being able to hit a 200-lb sized target at 300-400 yards for $400 all day long. If money weren't an issue, I'd get an HK91 (not the PTR either), but money is an issue for me, and I suspect it is for many of these guys. I think many of us would like to get a cheaper platform and then upgrade it a little at a time as our budget allows. That's how I approach it, anyway. If the 20 round mags were cheaper people would be snapping up the Saiga in droves. Not that they aren't already.

[BobAsh 582]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that many people buy the Saiga (as I did) for a reliable yet less expensive (on the front end) option to the FAL, HK91, or M1A. I can afford $400 up front and then add mods as my budget allows, but coming up with $1,000 up front is much more difficult.

 

For sure it's a great, reliable, inexpensive weapon with a lot of "cool factor". As a replacement for the guns you named, I don't know.

 

The AR system may be better in terms of fit and finish, and MAYBE accuracy, but you venture into the realm of questionable reliability with gas impingement.

 

I have to disagree with you on this. While the AR has reliability issues in some climates (read: fine sand), it's gas system is not at fault "IMO". The clearances and design of the internal components is where it's at. I fire the shit out of mine, never clean out the carbon, never has a problem. Of course, it's kept clean relative to a combat weapon. Also, the AR system is inherently more accurate than an AK. It's possible to make a sub-MOA AK- I know this to be fact, but it takes more than "accurizing"; it pretty much requires a complete redesign. A correctly-built AR with a quality barrel & FCG and a scope will do this.

 

Bottom line: Everything's a tradeoff. I'll take being able to hit a 200-lb sized target at 300-400 yards for $400 all day long....money is an issue for me, and I suspect it is for many of these guys....

 

This is exactly correct. Many guys try to do too much with one gun, especially early in their collecting career.

 

Saiga as varmint/target gun? Possible, but it's easier to start with a more appropriate platform.

[SOPMOD 254]

All of the above should buy you some improvement in accuracy, but you'd lose semi auto. I think you'd be better served if you want a semi auto for this task to go with an AR type system, as that is a design with far more accuracy potential. A DPMS 308 costs less than a grand (without glass). For a bolt gun a savage 10FP goes for around $500 bucks and can hit dimes all day.

 

You could probably make some nice improvements for less than a couple hundred bucks, but there's no point in spending any more as it's not going to get you much farther.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that many people buy the Saiga (as I did) for a reliable yet less expensive (on the front end) option to the FAL, HK91, or M1A. I can afford $400 up front and then add mods as my budget allows, but coming up with $1,000 up front is much more difficult.

 

The AR system may be better in terms of fit and finish, and MAYBE accuracy, but you venture into the realm of questionable reliability with gas impingement. If you really want an AR system that's as reliable as the AK system, get an AR180B. Of course, you give up the .308 capability with that platform, in which case your stopping power diminishes beyond 300 yards/meters.

 

Bottom line: Everything's a tradeoff. I'll take being able to hit a 200-lb sized target at 300-400 yards for $400 all day long. If money weren't an issue, I'd get an HK91 (not the PTR either), but money is an issue for me, and I suspect it is for many of these guys. I think many of us would like to get a cheaper platform and then upgrade it a little at a time as our budget allows. That's how I approach it, anyway. If the 20 round mags were cheaper people would be snapping up the Saiga in droves. Not that they aren't already.

 

 

I actually replaced the weapons you mentioned with Saigas based on superiority of design,robustness and reliability not lack of expense somewhat based on the experiences of some of the people on this board producing what I thought was acceptable accuracy and increased reliability on a massive scale and in all honesty my Saiga shoots as well as my German HK91 did and quite a bit better than my Argentine FAL ever dreamed of.

 

Strangely enough I will have an about equal money in my Saiga S308 when I'm finished with twenty $40 mags and the $1300 Optic as I did in any of the rifles you mentioned but if you needed any real accuracy you could buy a Savage 110FP or a Remington Sendero and build up a Saiga for everything else and be miles ahead.

 

You will probably never get sub-MOA or even MOA out of a Saiga even with everything I mentioned above but then you can hit a man sized target at what 800 yards with 3 MOA rifle so what are you really trying to accomplish?

[shaneman153a 39]

The AR system may be better in terms of fit and finish, and MAYBE accuracy, but you venture into the realm of questionable reliability with gas impingement.

 

I have to disagree with you on this. While the AR has reliability issues in some climates (read: fine sand), it's gas system is not at fault "IMO". The clearances and design of the internal components is where it's at. I fire the shit out of mine, never clean out the carbon, never has a problem. Of course, it's kept clean relative to a combat weapon. Also, the AR system is inherently more accurate than an AK. It's possible to make a sub-MOA AK- I know this to be fact, but it takes more than "accurizing"; it pretty much requires a complete redesign. A correctly-built AR with a quality barrel & FCG and a scope will do this.

 

Can't argue with that, I am an AR-hater, but they are way more accurate. I am more interested in reliability personally, I don't have any reason to get .41 MOA out of a gun, it's just not that important to me. What are you trying to accomplish with this gun? I can definately see the cool factor in having "the world's most accurate AK". Is that what you're going for?

 

Shane

 

edit: BTW, have they made a gas piston conversion for any of the AR-10 variants (DPMS .308)?

Edited September 11, 2007 by shaneman153a

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

Strangely enough I will have an about equal money in my Saiga S308 when I'm finished with twenty $40 mags and the $1300 Optic as I did in any of the rifles you mentioned but if you needed any real accuracy you could buy a Savage 110FP or a Remington Sendero and build up a Saiga for everything else and be miles ahead.

 

$1300 Optic on a saiga..? I'd love that, but then again hot meals are nice too.

 

+1 on the savage FP and saiga combo. A pair of these 308's serves just about any need you can think of short of brown bears or armored vehicles.

[G O B 3,516]

I've got an Isapore M2 and a Spanish Civil Mauser. The Ishy is rough, and may just end up a black rifle project.

The Civil Mauaser is in verry nice shape, and gives a good home to Silver bear soft points. They aren't loaded to pressures the small ring will have any problems with,

The Ishy is looser than the fleet's favorite hooker-but is stronger than an anvil, I would shoot damn near anything in the old slut.

 

 

I love to pair my semi's with bolts. Even got an old Mossberg bolt to keep the S-12 company!

[SOPMOD 254]

Strangely enough I will have an about equal money in my Saiga S308 when I'm finished with twenty $40 mags and the $1300 Optic as I did in any of the rifles you mentioned but if you needed any real accuracy you could buy a Savage 110FP or a Remington Sendero and build up a Saiga for everything else and be miles ahead.

 

$1300 Optic on a saiga..? I'd love that, but then again hot meals are nice too.

 

I'm waiting for the 7.62 reticle version of this to come out

 

and it's new home will be on this

 

 

and I wouldn't trade it for anything short of a SIG SAPR and then only if I could get a spare bolt and trigger parts for it first

[dasu 1]

sopmod, how are you going to mount that scope?

[SOPMOD 254]

sopmod, how are you going to mount that scope?

 

 

I'm still shopping scope mounts and I want a "throw lever" really low profile centered mount with an actual 1913 Spec Picatinny Rail and I ask about them about every 3rd post on this board to no avail.

 

I have wasted money on several mounts that ended up being offset on the Saiga S308 and they were weaver rather than picatinny type rails to boot..

 

 

Do you know of a high quality, throw lever picatinny mount that would be centered on a Saiga?

[randomchance 0]

sopmod, how are you going to mount that scope?

 

 

I'm still shopping scope mounts and I want a "throw lever" really low profile centered mount with an actual 1913 Spec Picatinny Rail and I ask about them about every 3rd post on this board to no avail.

 

I have wasted money on several mounts that ended up being offset on the Saiga S308 and they were weaver rather than picatinny type rails to boot..

 

 

Do you know of a high quality, throw lever picatinny mount that would be centered on a Saiga?

 

 

Have you looked at the Leapers 5th gen mount?

 

I have one on my rig that I got from Midway USA a couple of months ago. It sets the Picatinny rail about 1/4" above the dust cover and right on the centerline on my .308. I'm not sure if it is a '1913 spec' Picatinny rail (because I'm not familiar enough with all the types of mounts) but I know the slots are closer together than a Weaver mount.

[fossten 1]

sopmod, how are you going to mount that scope?

 

 

I'm still shopping scope mounts and I want a "throw lever" really low profile centered mount with an actual 1913 Spec Picatinny Rail and I ask about them about every 3rd post on this board to no avail.

 

I have wasted money on several mounts that ended up being offset on the Saiga S308 and they were weaver rather than picatinny type rails to boot..

 

 

Do you know of a high quality, throw lever picatinny mount that would be centered on a Saiga?

http://cdnninvestments.com/aktrmonew.html

 

Oops, sorry, that's weaver.

Edited September 17, 2007 by fossten

[SOPMOD 254]

sopmod, how are you going to mount that scope?

 

 

I'm still shopping scope mounts and I want a "throw lever" really low profile centered mount with an actual 1913 Spec Picatinny Rail and I ask about them about every 3rd post on this board to no avail.

 

I have wasted money on several mounts that ended up being offset on the Saiga S308 and they were weaver rather than picatinny type rails to boot..

 

 

Do you know of a high quality, throw lever picatinny mount that would be centered on a Saiga?

 

 

Have you looked at the Leapers 5th gen mount?

 

I have one on my rig that I got from Midway USA a couple of months ago. It sets the Picatinny rail about 1/4" above the dust cover and right on the centerline on my .308. I'm not sure if it is a '1913 spec' Picatinny rail (because I'm not familiar enough with all the types of mounts) but I know the slots are closer together than a Weaver mount.

 

 

What kind of quality are those mounts? I always worried that they would be kind of soft the way aluminum SKS mounts used to be sine they are made in China.

 

Has yours held up well?Does the aluminum gouge after repeated installations?

 

I like the look of it and it looks like a pretty close proximation of a picatinny rail and if it is top dead center over your S308 then it would save me some bank becaue my next move was to buy one of those high dollar K-Var mounts..

 

I am also interested to see about the new large diameter version of the UTG rail forend

[E-TAC 47]

I'm waiting for the 7.62 reticle version of this to come out

 

and it's new home will be on this

 

 

and I wouldn't trade it for anything short of a SIG SAPR and then only if I could get a spare bolt and trigger parts for it first

 

Nice front sight... I took out a stock Saiga 308 16"bbl today and blasted the heck out of it. First shot 50yards was perfect in the money zone. I shot a nice 5 shot 1" group @ 50 and about 3" @ 100 all open stock sights. perfect for blasting pigs and IPSC targets. I will have a scoped test done soon just to see if i can get 1.5 moa or better lol.., If you want a low price S.A. 308 to shoot 800yards buy a DPMS and Tasco scope. should cost about 1K.

[randomchance 0]

sopmod, how are you going to mount that scope?

 

 

I'm still shopping scope mounts and I want a "throw lever" really low profile centered mount with an actual 1913 Spec Picatinny Rail and I ask about them about every 3rd post on this board to no avail.

 

I have wasted money on several mounts that ended up being offset on the Saiga S308 and they were weaver rather than picatinny type rails to boot..

 

 

Do you know of a high quality, throw lever picatinny mount that would be centered on a Saiga?

 

 

Have you looked at the Leapers 5th gen mount?

 

I have one on my rig that I got from Midway USA a couple of months ago. It sets the Picatinny rail about 1/4" above the dust cover and right on the centerline on my .308. I'm not sure if it is a '1913 spec' Picatinny rail (because I'm not familiar enough with all the types of mounts) but I know the slots are closer together than a Weaver mount.

 

 

What kind of quality are those mounts? I always worried that they would be kind of soft the way aluminum SKS mounts used to be sine they are made in China.

 

Has yours held up well?Does the aluminum gouge after repeated installations?

 

I like the look of it and it looks like a pretty close proximation of a picatinny rail and if it is top dead center over your S308 then it would save me some bank becaue my next move was to buy one of those high dollar K-Var mounts..

 

I am also interested to see about the new large diameter version of the UTG rail forend

 

I don't unmount/mount all that much, I usually just remove the dust cover for cleaning with the mount in place. I'm still paranoid about removing a scope - even though it always retains zero - its something about those scope mounts my dad used when I was a kid, you NEVER moved them once you got them set. That being said, it doesn't seem like its soft to me - the finish is hard anodized and I've not even scratched it yet after repeated trips to the range, laying on the bench, etc... It mounts very solid (after adjusting the screw to get it just right) and doesn't move, and sets the scope right on the centerline - as close as I can tell - and low enough that I have to use medium rings to mount my 42mm objective lens scope. I haven't seen any gouging at all, not even any scratching through the anodizing, after being removed and installed 10 times or so. It is a little heavy because its solid with no cutouts and has the side rail (and its at least 1/8" thick - but I haven't mic'd it yet) and I can't get it to flex even when I try, I'm very pleased with it so far. And for about 1/3 the cost of the K-Var I'd certainly recommend it. Of course, I'm not THAT hard on things so YMMV, but it doesn't feel cheap to me (if you know what I mean).