Mounting your S12 for HD

[kmoore 3]

that photo gives new meaning to the term "keyboard commando"!

 

Not everyone has a problem with top round deformation. I tried some 3 in 00 buck (15 ball?) a LONG time ago. I don't know if I used a 5 round mag, or an 8 (this was well before the 10 round mags). Hmmm, someone should check out the drum ...

 

Eustace ... Locking the bolt open doesn't mean the safety is off. In my experience you can have that safety rotate up just a touch and it prevents firing (it's happened during mag changes to me when stressed). Might give you a bit of peace of mind to check out how your gun acts? Also, you could cut a notch in the safety lever (or buy one, several companies used to sell them).

 

A big plus one on the pumpgun fallicies. I've seen more than a few fail in matches. Not all of it operator failure either, not sure of all the other failures but at least two involved broken parts, and one the operator later told me the shells were sticking in the chamber. I don't know how this would happen, but it took forceful strokes of the shotty on the ground to work the action. Realize that 95% of the shells I see fired are birdshot used in competitions so this may not be 100 % true for hd loads.

 

One of the positive things that I think competitions can do is provide a stressfull, non standard environment for owners to use thier shotgun in. It's not real world, life and death. But I see folks learn stuff all the time in these games (shooting around barricades, on the move, prone, weak shouldered and with the pressure of the clock and gallery, etc.). You just can't get most of this with self directed practice....

[EustaceLufgren 0]

Eustace ... Locking the bolt open doesn't mean the safety is off. In my experience you can have that safety rotate up just a touch and it prevents firing (it's happened during mag changes to me when stressed). Might give you a bit of peace of mind to check out how your gun acts? Also, you could cut a notch in the safety lever (or buy one, several companies used to sell them).

 

Great, thanks! That is an excellent idea...if I could get the safety locked with the bolt open that'd be ideal. I will look into doing this...is the safety lever identical to an AK-47 lever or does the Saiga have a unique size/shape for this?

[Navy87Guy 1]

Great, thanks! That is an excellent idea...if I could get the safety locked with the bolt open that'd be ideal. I will look into doing this...is the safety lever identical to an AK-47 lever or does the Saiga have a unique size/shape for this?

 

It's the same lever -- but before you spend $50 to buy one, you ought to give it a try yourself. A Dremel and a square file are all you need. There's a post showing what you need to do on AR15.com.

 

Jim

[G O B 3,516]

I'm with 1911. Keep a steel hull on top.

[banshee 69]

I've been waiting patiently for a metal hulled factory buckshot load...anyone got any sources? I know AIMsurplus was supposed to get them eventually.

 

Right now the only metal hull load I know is a birdshot load...I'd rather have something more stout for that first shot, in home defense.

I count the birdshot as a warning shot, followed by #00 Buck, followed by Slugs. Being a very reasonable guy, you have the option of saying "Uncle" at any time. Of course, this scenario follows 7-8 rds of flying ashtrays to be sure you are paying attention.

1911

 

I don't believe in a warning shot.

[notenoughtime3 0]

I don't believe in a warning shot.

 

+1

[G O B 3,516]

Birdshot isn't bad at all for head shots. And when they can't see anymore you own them.

[MikeD 541]

I don't believe in a warning shot.

 

+1

+1000, if being in my home and me saying ," Freeze Mother Fucker" while pointing something nasty at you isn't enough...., your dead! At interior distances, anything in the barrel is going to be lethal, birdshot included. Up to about 10 ft away, anything out of the barrel is just as good as a slug. Even 25 ft away birdshot will still dust your ass, I promise.

[Paladin 37]

I don't believe in a warning shot.

 

+1

+1000, if being in my home and me saying ," Freeze Mother Fucker" while pointing something nasty at you isn't enough...., your dead! At interior distances, anything in the barrel is going to be lethal, birdshot included. Up to about 10 ft away, anything out of the barrel is just as good as a slug. Even 25 ft away birdshot will still dust your ass, I promise.

 

 

From the ballistic data I've seen and reports from LEO's bird shot won't do the job. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

They make rounds that are sintered metal mixed with wax that are used as a door breacher round and has been developed into an LEO round that hits like a solid slug to get penetration then disperses.

Perfect for HD, if you hit the Zombie-he goes down NOW, if you miss-it hits a wall and make a big hole-but disperses. Everything on other side is safe (like your kids!)

 

Of course when I get my drum I could hit them with 20 rounds of bird shot and just leave a quivering red mass on the floor, but my wife will be pissed about the mess!

[kmoore 3]

I'd love to see ballistics testing for the sintered metal rounds, have they done it? Or are they designed only for breaching doors?

 

Birdshot would be one of my last choices for HD. You can always imagine the scenario where it works just fine, but those aren't the one's I plan for. Head shots can be tough to pull off on demand, and if you make them I doubt that you just blinded the guy, he's likely DRT (which is what you want anyways).

 

I'd rather use a round that gives more options. buckshot is the typical choice, and I agree with it. If overpenetration is a concern then another firearm would be a better choice (IMO). If you are wanting to wound only ... well, that smacks of all of the people that think we should just shoot the BG's in the leg ...

[Paladin 37]

Here's one of the links on ballistic testing,

http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_sub/...onal_frang.html

There's another link I'm having a hard time finding again, it has photos and video of rounds being used that will blow a hole in a wall but will leave a ballon they have set up behind the target untouched.

I am working on similar rounds right now and hope to have some results that I will post.

[notenoughtime3 0]

From the ballistic data I've seen and reports from LEO's bird shot won't do the job. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

They make rounds that are sintered metal mixed with wax that are used as a door breacher round and has been developed into an LEO round that hits like a solid slug to get penetration then disperses.

Perfect for HD, if you hit the Zombie-he goes down NOW, if you miss-it hits a wall and make a big hole-but disperses. Everything on other side is safe (like your kids!)

 

You can make something similar with regular bird shot.

 

Open shot shell.

 

Remove shot.

 

Add 1/2 teaspoon of melted wax(binding agent) into the shot cup.

 

Add shot back into shot shell.

 

Clean up over flow.

 

Recrimp using a crimper or packing it back down the best you can with the tools available.

 

Make sure outside of shell is clean.

 

*Plaster also works well as a binding agent.

[Paladin 37]

From the ballistic data I've seen and reports from LEO's bird shot won't do the job. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

They make rounds that are sintered metal mixed with wax that are used as a door breacher round and has been developed into an LEO round that hits like a solid slug to get penetration then disperses.

Perfect for HD, if you hit the Zombie-he goes down NOW, if you miss-it hits a wall and make a big hole-but disperses. Everything on other side is safe (like your kids!)

 

You can make something similar with regular bird shot.

 

Open shot shell.

 

Remove shot.

 

Add 1/2 teaspoon of melted wax(binding agent) into the shot cup.

 

Add shot back into shot shell.

 

Clean up over flow.

 

Recrimp using a crimper or packing it back down the best you can with the tools available.

 

Make sure outside of shell is clean.

 

*Plaster also works well as a binding agent.

 

Exactly the direction I'm going. Buckshot, while effective, will zip through interior walls. Slugs, also very effective, would be a danger to even my neighbors. Frag rounds are perfect for HD.

 

Plaster seems to be a little too brittle, the shock of ignition and forcing cone breaks it up into chunks. Wax appears to be the ticket. But I'm learning about different waxes to see which is best.

[rocinante 100]

I just have mine in the closet with the bolt open and a couple of 10 round magazines in the little safe I have the ready pistol in. I have two boys 8 and 11.

[Eric Pate 478]

Anybody happen to know where Honest-to-God door-breaching rounds are actually avalable? Or legal for that matter?

[kresk 10,063]

Anybody happen to know where Honest-to-God door-breaching rounds are actually avalable? Or legal for that matter?

Sportsmens Guide has them occasionally. Firequest makes all sorts of odd rounds but not sure about a door breacher.

Edited September 24, 2007 by tritium

[notenoughtime3 0]

From the ballistic data I've seen and reports from LEO's bird shot won't do the job. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

They make rounds that are sintered metal mixed with wax that are used as a door breacher round and has been developed into an LEO round that hits like a solid slug to get penetration then disperses.

Perfect for HD, if you hit the Zombie-he goes down NOW, if you miss-it hits a wall and make a big hole-but disperses. Everything on other side is safe (like your kids!)

 

You can make something similar with regular bird shot.

 

Open shot shell.

 

Remove shot.

 

Add 1/2 teaspoon of melted wax(binding agent) into the shot cup.

 

Add shot back into shot shell.

 

Clean up over flow.

 

Recrimp using a crimper or packing it back down the best you can with the tools available.

 

Make sure outside of shell is clean.

 

*Plaster also works well as a binding agent.

 

Exactly the direction I'm going. Buckshot, while effective, will zip through interior walls. Slugs, also very effective, would be a danger to even my neighbors. Frag rounds are perfect for HD.

 

Plaster seems to be a little too brittle, the shock of ignition and forcing cone breaks it up into chunks. Wax appears to be the ticket. But I'm learning about different waxes to see which is best.

 

Try simple candle wax.

 

You can almost always get it, even in an emergency.

 

Read The Shotgun in Combat by Tony Lesce.

 

It has a lot of "Box of truth" type testing in it.

 

It wasn't my best read ever, but there are a few gems like the improvised slugs.

 

I'd urge anybody thinking about using a shotgun for home defense to read it.

[kmoore 3]

everyone has their own standards. That's not enough penetration for me to feel comfortable.

 

Here's the way I "analyze" things. Say there are 100 differing bad situations you could be in (I know, there are a lot more). Frangibles (with thier lackluster penetration) would likely "solve" 85 of those. Maybe birdshot will work in 75 cases. Heck, even a load of rocksalt will fix 30 of them. etc.

 

My belief is that buckshot solves a larger number of possible scenarios (certainly not all of them). Slugs are good too, but have an extreme penetration problem.

 

And I agree that your surroundings (apt living, etc) come into play. For me a sure stop is most important (if it ever became time to pull the trigger, I'll need the best chance of stopping the threat).

 

But I certainly think that everyone can decide for themselves the types of scenarios that are most likely to happen, and the best method of defending against the most likely and dangerous ones.

 

All, IMO and YMMV

[Thunderbear 2]

everyone has their own standards. That's not enough penetration for me to feel comfortable.

 

Here's the way I "analyze" things. Say there are 100 differing bad situations you could be in (I know, there are a lot more). Frangibles (with thier lackluster penetration) would likely "solve" 85 of those. Maybe birdshot will work in 75 cases. Heck, even a load of rocksalt will fix 30 of them. etc.

 

My belief is that buckshot solves a larger number of possible scenarios (certainly not all of them). Slugs are good too, but have an extreme penetration problem.

 

And I agree that your surroundings (apt living, etc) come into play. For me a sure stop is most important (if it ever became time to pull the trigger, I'll need the best chance of stopping the threat).

 

But I certainly think that everyone can decide for themselves the types of scenarios that are most likely to happen, and the best method of defending against the most likely and dangerous ones.

 

All, IMO and YMMV

 

To wit, in a game of many variables, stack the deck in your favor. Hit the hardest with the mostest, the fastest.

 

I agree completely.

[MikeD 541]

It would be fun to make some gelatin blocks and test this stuff first hand. You can gelatin cheap too. Now if I could just get some time. Maybe this winter sometime. I'd like to test the wax and birdshot. I'd like to test some sinkers on a wire or small cable also at different distances. I could think of a different way to blast a semi truck full of those blocks away . I have a couple pounds of flechette somewhere too.