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Tactial Responce Fighting Shotgun with a Saiga 12


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I am glad that you were happy with your training! But honestly their cadre is somewhat lacking in experience and training overall. They only list 2-3 that have been and done. I do not say this to provoke anyone, but sometimes it amazing to me the people that feel that they are qualified to teach 3-4 years of experience under their belt in a less then demanding position, much less to charge for it.

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so how far out is buckshot lethal???

 

wouldnt "skipping" the shot under a car reduce the velocity enough, to be less than lethal?

 

"Bullet Traction" or "Pellet Traction" in this case is old news in the tactical world. Sure the projectile loses energy / velocity when it strikes a hard surface. Less then lethal? It depending on the range, but at typical urban ranges, it should have more then enough energy to properly service the target, or for those with the advanced technique, the next one will...

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The skipping of the shot/slug under a car was really enlightening to me.

 

Hmmm....I dunno. This seems to violate the rule of "Always be sure of your target and what's beyond".

 

Listen, I'm all for learning new skills however now that I am a quasi civilian I also understand that most of the tactics that I've learned were offensive in nature. On second thought, maybe ALL of the tactics I learned were offensive in nature...Marines take ground, it's what we do best.

 

So what I'm getting at is from a civilian perspective you have to take that into consideration and train accordingly. Me, I don't know if I'd employ suppressive fire and flanking techniques nor would I consider trying to skip rounds under a vehicle or around a corner just because of the liability involved. The reality is, if you were to actually do something like that how is that going to sound in a court of law? How are you going to feel if you hit an innocent bystander? Ricochets do really funny things sometimes.

 

This is certainly my two cents. And I am strictly speaking from a civilian perspective, not military or law enforcement.

 

I also think that it's good that you are seeking out instruction from people with more experience. It's not for me to say what their experience is worth however if you feel that you got your money's worth then it was most likely well spent because you learned something.

 

P.S.

Guys I've already heard the "Better to be judged by 12..." etc, etc. argument. That's not really the point of my post. My point is that you ought to recognize what tactics are offensive and defensive in nature and take that into consideration if you are ever unlucky enough to need to react with an armed response.

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The skipping of the shot/slug under a car was really enlightening to me.

 

Hmmm....I dunno. This seems to violate the rule of "Always be sure of your target and what's beyond".

 

Listen, I'm all for learning new skills however now that I am a quasi civilian I also understand that most of the tactics that I've learned were offensive in nature. On second thought, maybe ALL of the tactics I learned were offensive in nature...Marines take ground, it's what we do best.

 

So what I'm getting at is from a civilian perspective you have to take that into consideration and train accordingly. Me, I don't know if I'd employ suppressive fire and flanking techniques nor would I consider trying to skip rounds under a vehicle or around a corner just because of the liability involved. The reality is, if you were to actually do something like that how is that going to sound in a court of law? How are you going to feel if you hit an innocent bystander? Ricochets do really funny things sometimes.

 

This is certainly my two cents. And I am strictly speaking from a civilian perspective, not military or law enforcement.

 

I also think that it's good that you are seeking out instruction from people with more experience. It's not for me to say what their experience is worth however if you feel that you got your money's worth then it was most likely well spent because you learned something.

 

P.S.

Guys I've already heard the "Better to be judged by 12..." etc, etc. argument. That's not really the point of my post. My point is that you ought to recognize what tactics are offensive and defensive in nature and take that into consideration if you are ever unlucky enough to need to react with an armed response.

 

GunnyR is spot on with his advice. It is a very good idea to be able to take a head shot because 1. it means you are familiar with and capable with your weapon and 2. it may be necessary in a hostage situation with your wife/kid. HOWEVER (that is hollering for a reason) it would be foolhardy to take that sort of shot unless absolutely necessary. BECAUSE it provides the jury and counsel with evidence that you were entirely capable of just wounding your assailant. Your entire purpose is to STOP THE ATTACK, not kill another human. When questioned about the situation tell them that you were in fear for your life and presented ONLY enough force to stop the attack. Bragging rights in self defense will land you in jail and in a lawsuit by the surviving family. JMHO

1911

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I have to disagree with you on your wounding statement. Having worked and trained as a police officer for years, shooting to wound is exactly what is NOT taught in training. You are taught to shoot at center mass always, never to wound. Fine motor skills like aiming for the foot, etc. are usually lost when you find yourself in a gunfight. You should always shoot to take the other guy out of the fight. Also by not killing the subject you have now left one more person around to sue you and in such states as Commiefornia that is not a good thing. I've included a list of rules for gunfighting, its kind of funny but is pretty honest when you think of it.

 

 

1. Bring a gun. Preferably at least two guns. Bring all your friends who have guns.

 

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.

 

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

 

4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough nor using cover correctly.

 

5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (lateral and diagonal movement are preferred)

 

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun, and a friend with a long gun.

 

7. In 10 years nobody will remember the details of the caliber, stance or tactics. They will only remember who lived.

 

8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.

 

9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on the "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.

 

9 .5. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel pisses in the flintlock of your musket."

 

10. Someday someone may kill you with your gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

 

11. Always cheat: Always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

 

12. Have a plan.

 

13. Have a back up plan because the first one won't work.

 

14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible. The visible target should be in FRONT on your gun.

 

15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

 

16. Don't drop your guard.

 

17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.

 

18. Watch their hands. Hands kill (in God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them)

 

19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

 

20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

 

21. Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill ever yone you meet.

 

22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.

 

23. Your number one option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

 

24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4"

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I have to disagree with you on your wounding statement. Having worked and trained as a police officer for years, shooting to wound is exactly what is NOT taught in training. You are taught to shoot at center mass always, never to wound. Fine motor skills like aiming for the foot, etc. are usually lost when you find yourself in a gunfight. You should always shoot to take the other guy out of the fight. Also by not killing the subject you have now left one more person around to sue you and in such states as Commiefornia that is not a good thing. I've included a list of rules for gunfighting, its kind of funny but is pretty honest when you think of it.

 

 

1. Bring a gun. Preferably at least two guns. Bring all your friends who have guns.

 

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.

 

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

 

4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough nor using cover correctly.

 

5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (lateral and diagonal movement are preferred)

 

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun, and a friend with a long gun.

 

7. In 10 years nobody will remember the details of the caliber, stance or tactics. They will only remember who lived.

 

8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.

 

9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on the "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.

 

9 .5. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel pisses in the flintlock of your musket."

 

10. Someday someone may kill you with your gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

 

11. Always cheat: Always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

 

12. Have a plan.

 

13. Have a back up plan because the first one won't work.

 

14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible. The visible target should be in FRONT on your gun.

 

15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

 

16. Don't drop your guard.

 

17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.

 

18. Watch their hands. Hands kill (in God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them)

 

19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

 

20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

 

21. Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill ever yone you meet.

 

22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.

 

23. Your number one option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

 

24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4"

 

We are in violent agreement! I neglected to say center mass but the gist of what I was saying is the you do not take a head shot just because you can. The head shot will lead to troubles that a center mass shot will not. I in no way intended to tell folks to try to wound the assailant. What I said was that IF you take the head shot the prosecuting attorney & jury will ask you and themselves why you did not wound the assailant; because you are obviously an expert and chose to kill rather than stop the threat. Perhaps a poor explanation (initially) but we are in agreement.

1911

 

edit- to clarify (I hope)

Edited by 1911
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my boss, ex HPD officer has made the center of mass technique standard for all CSOs, and has said to put it bluntly- kill the fuck- you don't want to be sued.

 

I know the family can, and most likely will sue in any event but I regularly train in failure to stop drills, double taps, and weapon retention drills, mainly because I want to be ALIVE to be sued.

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Guys with all kindness and respect, everyone here debating the "skipping" technique, does not understand it or how it is to be employed. I am not at all sure the original instructors understood it as well. I do not think it has much of a place in a civilian self-defense arsenal of techniques. But rest assured, there is a valid time and a place for putting a little "English" on a shot.

 

However, I agree, never shoot to wound.

 

AND

 

Any anytime you point a firearm, much less fire it, in another human's direction you are in a high liability situation.

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..... Bragging rights in self defense will land you in jail and in a lawsuit by the surviving family. JMHO

1911

 

Marine here as well. In Ohio there's differences in law for self defense -depending on the location.

In fact, Ohio law: 2305.40 Owner, lessee, or renter of real property not liable to trespasser.

 

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2305.40

In particular section C, 2.

 

I try to know my rights and laws to the best of my "reasonable" ability. If/when a home invader's family wants to take me to court, they'll lose -Even if I'm mistaken. Nice touch. I completely agree that ANY self-defense situation is certainly nothing to brag about. I find it childish and naive to the seriousness of consequence. Of course, location and circumstance make all the difference in the world.

But the end result is simple (and phrase you should memorize): You stopped a threat.

The complicated part would be: did you have the dedication and respect "to yourself" to get educated on what is right and wrong...what is legal or not.

 

 

It's important to follow the rules while having fun shooting at the range or events. Its important to develop proficiency in your firearms as well. But it's most important to know the responsibilities and laws for the other 98% of the time you have to hold that gun in your hand -or carry it around. What I am saying is that the comments like above "might" cause someone to pause at the wrong moment. A person who knows the facts from looking up the current laws, or asking local law enforcement on scenarios (for their particular juristiction) -has a better chance at truly defending their life -without second guessing.

 

I also completely agree that you are liable for wherever that bullet goes the moment it leaves the barrel. If it over penetrates or missed (shame on you) and hits someone else or property, it's on you. Stopping a threat is one thing, spray and pray suppressive fire is another. Granted, that part all depends on the scenario as well...just one burglar? Or 4 gang members jumping armed out of the car you just rear ended? etc etc. In the end, YOUR education and training will decide how you should act...just as the law will use their education and training to either prosecute or release you.

 

 

Taking professional training courses -Military, Law, or Civilian can be a good thing. Many people don't expect or see skipping rounds as an option...then again, there may come a time where its deemed the best option. I guess on topics like this, I'm of the opinion that the better trained a person is -the more likely they are to not be a loose cannon. An example would be like Concealed Weapon holders being and extremely low risk (according to statistics) of any gun owners to be a criminal in self defense. Then again, nobody know's how they will act until they have to act. You're mileage may vary.

 

 

Then again, the topic was "Tactical Response Fighting Shotgun with a Saiga 12" and not home/self-defense.

To me, they're 2 different topics...with different legal or life consequences.

 

~S

Edited by whatmanual
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Then again, the topic was "Tactical Response Fighting Shotgun with a Saiga 12" and not home/self-defense.

To me, they're 2 different topics...with different legal or life consequences.

 

~S

 

True. My apologies to Forster.

Did not mean steer the conversation to non-tactical topics.

 

Sometimes I'm a brilliant example of the "Ready, Fire, Aim" mentality.

Fortunately that only applies to my big fat mouth.

 

Semper Fi to all you Marines out there!

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