How can I mount a "Scout Scope"?

[Ridge Runner 0]

Can a Saiga be turned into a Scout Rifle?

 

Can a Scout Scope be installed on one?

[MD_Willington 11]

Yes it can.

 

Yes, you need a product such as the "Ultimak" from... Ultimak, or a top handcover with a rail to attach a scout scope.

[topmaul 42]

Like this,

 

[Neurosis 0]

Since the scopes do mount on the gas tube with the Ultimaks, you could lose zero whenever you clean. Another solution is from ScoutScopes which replaces the rear sights and allows you to field strip the rifle without effecting the scope position.

[hobbyist 0]

Here is mine: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&...=64&t=99815

 

Here is anotherone of mine w. variable scope: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&...=64&t=99938

Edited October 3, 2007 by Hobbyist

[GeoJAP 0]

http://www.jasonphillips.org/Firearms_Saiga/Saiga.asp

[vjor 2]

Bro ultimak, and you dont take the damn thing off when you clean the gun

you cleat it on place, if you use low scope mount and

30mm dots, you can use the red dot or use irons

right true the red dot no need to take red dot off.

Edited October 3, 2007 by vjor

[jbremount 0]

Here is mine: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&...=64&t=99815

 

Here is anotherone of mine w. variable scope: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&...=64&t=99938

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Hobbist,

 

Did you have to cut or remove anything on the orginal Saiga handguard to install the Ultimaks?

[jbremount 0]

How much will the heat of a hot barrel affect the Ultimak mount and then the scope? Anyone have any experience with this?

[GeoJAP 0]

Hobbist,

 

Did you have to cut or remove anything on the orginal Saiga handguard to install the Ultimaks?

 

You do have the cut away some of the handguard so that the Ultimak will fit. I'm replacing the handguard with a regular AKM handhuards lower and using Dinzag's retaining plate to secure it.

[hobbyist 0]

[jbremount 0]

[lollygagger 1]

Unless I'm missing something with these mounting systems (the rear sight mount included)...

 

The GAS TUBE isn't going to be removable (not the end of the world -unless you fire some corror ammo) unless the mount is taken off.

 

Right?

 

(BTW, I suspect after looking at things, that the gas tube could be removed TO THE SIDE with some mods to the rear sight base fixture involving a relief cut and how the lock is levered. Looks quite possible.)

[GeoJAP 0]

The Ultimak mount IS the gas tube, so if you remove the gas tube then you remove the mount.

[jbremount 0]

The Ultimak mount IS the gas tube, so if you remove the gas tube then you remove the mount.

 

 

That is also the way I understand the Ultimak sight mount, it replaces your original gas tube on the rifle. There is probably not much of a need to take the gas tube off to clean the rifle.

[lollygagger 1]

"There is probably not much of a need to take the gas tube off to clean the rifle."

 

I think that was pretty much the opinion of the former owners of the SKS Yugo 59/66 rifles before they were imported here...

 

You know, the one's that are famous for having worn, glitchey & defective gas systems?

 

(I admit that the risk of corro in the gun is primarily with 7.62x39mm ammo use)

Edited October 8, 2007 by lollygagger

[lollygagger 1]

You know (I've thought about this)...

 

I think that a "scout" (orward mount position) should be something easily done WITH THE FACTORY HANDGUARD retained.

 

the handguard is secured at it's back...screw(s) set in the front, in th area it slides in place, should be able to stress & tightene it adequately.

 

Then, all is needed is a inverted "U" with a weaver/picatiny rail placed on it, and, secured to the handguard near the front...

 

With ENOUGH RELIEF TO REMOVE THE GAS TUBE -leaving the mount in place.

 

Sounds like about $10-$15 worth of hardward and a evening of work...I've got to get around to this.

[jbremount 0]

Does anyone have any expierence with the red dot scopes and the Ultimak scope mount as far the heat tranfer? The red dot scope has to get hotter that close to the gas tube!

[MD_Willington 11]

You could call the guys in Moscow Idaho and ask, I've played with a few of their setups when I've been over at their shop.

 

They let me check out a few setups, one on a Saiga, one of a Mini-14 etcetera..

 

They really are nice guys to deal with.

[lollygagger 1]

FWIW...

 

At a show I found this $3 close-out SKS "K-Loc" mount & a E.G AKM gas tube with a synthetic handguard for $5.

 

After I attacked it with my Dremel...

 

 

It sorta became my $8 plus labor "po' boy" Ultimak -has done okay with a red dot.

 

I like cheap.

[jrance@iacwds.com 716]

I see the advantage of a "Scout Scope" setup on a Saiga due to inherent mount issues with the dust cover. I also see that Jeff Cooper suggested the "Scout Rifle" concept which utilized the "Scout Scope". The "Scout Scope" designates a forward mount? What advantage is this for other weapon platforms? Seems like eye relief would be messed up to me. Can somebody exp[lain in detail the purpose and advantages?

Thanks,.

1911

Edited October 10, 2007 by 1911

[vjor 2]

I have run the .223 and 7.62x39 hot I mean 7 30 RD mags in a role

including bump firing, hot I will say is mild word to describe the barrel , no problem on red dots

and ultimak is the game, and a good hand guard or is melt down time

like the cheapo hand guards, I have a PK-1 on the 7.62x39 the

gun that I use the must and have been abuse the must, the ultimak

is clap to barrel and no touches trunnion at all, moves with the barrel

no lost of zero any time plus the PK-1 still there like nothing, cleaning

of the ultimak have been done with a 12 gauge brush

and patches, same way I clean the regular gas tube and no

the AK don't sufer for fooling on the gas tube or piston, how I know

I have seen ak in central america that havent been clean

for knows how long and work just fine the gun is almost indestructible

plus Saigas don't come pack in cosmolite.

 

But what do I know.

 

Any way if you going to run your gun hot, get a hand guard

like the k-var sale with a heat shield, I have seen

the cheap hand guards like ones sale by Vulcan

melt on a ak that have been run hot, the things are just plastic

and no space between the hand guard and barrel, even the Rumanian's

cheap wood will last long that any cheapo plastic hand guard, but will

get hot and I mean hot.

 

PS dont run your gun hot and dont try to run 7 mags in a role or

even 5 or 3 mags in a role, things start to cook really bad.

Edited October 10, 2007 by vjor

[RedFalconBill 0]

I see the advantage of a "Scout Scope" setup on a Saiga due to inherent mount issues with the dust cover. I also see that Jeff Cooper suggested the "Scout Rifle" concept which utilized the "Scout Scope". The "Scout Scope" designates a forward mount? What advantage is this for other weapon platforms? Seems like eye relief would be messed up to me. Can somebody exp[lain in detail the purpose and advantages?

Thanks,.

1911

 

The forward mounted scope was to solve the issue of not being able to use stripper clips with bolt action rifles and the center of gravity of most bolt guns is centered between the front of the trigger guard and the front action screw. This makes it hard to grasp the receiver when there is a scope mounted right over the receiver.

 

Having a forward mounted scope makes it easier to keep both eyes open when using the scope, so you do not lose peripheral vision.

 

It was developed using antiquated firearms (bolt action rifles) and old, fragile, scopes.

 

Eye relief is not an issue with quality scope, of which there are only two the 2.75 Burris and the 2.5 Leupold. The issue is field of view. The further away the occular lens is away from the eye, the less field of view you have.

 

Example:

Leupold 2.5x20 FX-II Riflescope

Eye Relief: 4.9"

Field of View @ 100 yds (ft): 39.5

 

Leupold 2.5x28 FX-II Scout Scope

Eye Relief: 9.3"

Field of View @ 100 yds (ft): 22

 

With selective-fire assault rifles that have pistol grips, this whole thing is, IMO, moot.

 

My 16.3" .223 Saiga is slightly front heavy, which I like. It swings like my Winchster 1300 shotgun and just hangs there when I transition from target to target.

 

I fiddled about with a forward mount, and it turned my Saiga into a front heavy pig that feels and handles almost as bad as my old issue M-4 did, though that was decked out with railed HG, TD VFG, Surefire, and AN/PAQ-4.

 

Ended up buying a BN-02 side mount and put a 1-3x20 Weaver scope on it. I like it, but the BN-02 mount weighs 11 ozs.

 

I wish that LaRue would come out with their AK side mount, but they are hesitant to do so, because they view the entire AK crowd as two camps; 1) those that want their AK's 'perfect', with the correct period sight base, correct period HG, PG, stock, blah, blah, blah; and 2) those that are, well, miserly with their dollars (the entire "my UTG looks just like LaRue and I got it for $39.95 at the local Gun Show crowd"). Thankfully, they ARE moving forward, just slowly.

 

So sum it up, forward mounts on AK's are, IMO, a solution looking for a problem.

Edited October 13, 2007 by RedFalconBill

[jrance@iacwds.com 716]

Thanks for the response RedFalconBill. Very helpful and informative.

1911

[RedFalconBill 0]

Thanks for the response RedFalconBill. Very helpful and informative.

1911

 

You're welcome.

 

If a person has their heart set on a forward mount, the ULTIMAK is a nice bit 'o kit. If you add the ULTIMAK, plus an Aimpoint Micro H-1 or T-1, the ULTIMAK will do fine and only add less than 5 ozs.

 

Thing is, I did not have access to either the T-1 or H-1 when I was fiddling with the ULTIMAK. If it was out, I might have kept the ULTIMAK, as it does what it says it will do.

 

Who knows. Maybe I'll buy another AK (Saiga maybe?) and get another ULTIMAK and this time not be so hot to dump it when my experiments did not turn out the way I wanted them to.

[jbremount 0]

If a person has their heart set on a forward mount, the ULTIMAK is a nice bit 'o kit. If you add the ULTIMAK, plus an Aimpoint Micro H-1 or T-1, the ULTIMAK will do fine and only add less than 5 ozs.

 

 

I finally got all the parts to add a Ultimak Scout mount to my Saiga Ak rifle. I considered the peep sights, the top cover sight mounts and the receiver side mounts, but I think the Ultimak scout mount and a red dot scope in the forward position make for a really good and fast shooting rifle. Red dot scopes are not that expensive and you cannot beat them for fast target shooting. I had to cut on the saiga handguard to get everything to fit, but at the end of the day, I was surprised how well everything worked out! IMO, the gun balances perfectly with the red dot scope on the Ultimak Scout mount. It is probably easier to buy an AK lower handguard and the Dinzaf's handguard retainer, saving a lot of time cutting/filing/sanding/etc on the original Saiga handguard.

 

 

 

[RedFalconBill 0]

I finally got all the parts to add a Ultimak Scout mount to my Saiga Ak rifle. I considered the peep sights, the top cover sight mounts and the receiver side mounts, but I think the Ultimak scout mount and a red dot scope in the forward position make for a really good and fast shooting rifle. Red dot scopes are not that expensive and you cannot beat them for fast target shooting. I had to cut on the saiga handguard to get everything to fit, but at the end of the day, I was surprised how well everything worked out! IMO, the gun balances perfectly with the red dot scope on the Ultimak Scout mount. It is probably easier to buy an AK lower handguard and the Dinzaf's handguard retainer, saving a lot of time cutting/filing/sanding/etc on the original Saiga handguard.

 

I tested my ML2 and found that the added 10 ozs was too much for me, YMMV. Maybe if I had a Vltor M-4 telescoping stock and spare batteries in the inserts to bring rear balance, it would not have been that bad. Ah, live and learn.

 

BTW, nice looking AK. Where did you get the side folding stock?

[artx15 0]

I finally got all the parts to add a Ultimak Scout mount to my Saiga Ak rifle. I considered the peep sights, the top cover sight mounts and the receiver side mounts, but I think the Ultimak scout mount and a red dot scope in the forward position make for a really good and fast shooting rifle. Red dot scopes are not that expensive and you cannot beat them for fast target shooting. I had to cut on the saiga handguard to get everything to fit, but at the end of the day, I was surprised how well everything worked out! IMO, the gun balances perfectly with the red dot scope on the Ultimak Scout mount. It is probably easier to buy an AK lower handguard and the Dinzaf's handguard retainer, saving a lot of time cutting/filing/sanding/etc on the original Saiga handguard.

 

I tested my ML2 and found that the added 10 ozs was too much for me, YMMV. Maybe if I had a Vltor M-4 telescoping stock and spare batteries in the inserts to bring rear balance, it would not have been that bad. Ah, live and learn.

 

BTW, nice looking AK. Where did you get the side folding stock?

 

Kinda looks like a Tromix rear stock I think, dont quote me there though

[jbremount 0]

BTW, nice looking AK. Where did you get the side folding stock?

 

Kinda looks like a Tromix rear stock I think, dont quote me there though

 

 

Yes, it is a Tromix stock using Ace mounting/folding hardware. This particular stock is very sturdy and lightweight, plus it fits the shoulder very well making the gun easy to shoot with comfort. Great stock as far a I am concerned.