Juggernaut 11,054 Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 Was Just talking with a friend about this. Figured it might me a good thing to get some basic info to help anyone who may be interested, get the ball rolling the right way as far as NFA apps, Trust ect.. Discussion? We get some good solid stuff together, I'll sticky this thread.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 (edited) The standard approach for making your own SBS/SBR is: File a Form 1 with the ATF. You need two copies, two sets of passport size photos, and two sets of fingerprints. The form needs to be signed off by your CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer), usually the local sheriff or police chief. Enclose a check or money order for $200. You also need to submit a signed Form 1512-0571 (Certification of Compliance with 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(5)B to certify US citizenship or proper immigrant status. Experience has shown that ten to twelve weeks is the average waiting time to obtain approval. There is also some excellent info here which goes into more detail including situations where your CLEO refuses to sign the Form 1. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/...ist/nfa_faq.txt Edited October 11, 2007 by tritium Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Garys4598 1,065 Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 (edited) Was Just talking with a friend about this. Who the bloody-hell are you referring to when you say "friend"????!!!!! ...... ...... ...... .......... Seriously though, I know a long time ago this topic was brought up (arguably several times) and several knowledeable forum members shared what they knew pertaining to this topic. Hell, if I recall correctly, one of our members at the time was a legal attorney and stuff. Now.... if the bloody "search" option within these forums was worth a tinker's hoot.... instead of being a god-aweful, almost useless piece of fucktard sheeeeiiiiiit, my dear friend Juggelnuts... ( .... .... ..... ) wouldn't have posted this thread on my behalf. But, ummm.......... I AM ALL EARS!!!!!!!!!!! Edited October 11, 2007 by Gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Garys4598 1,065 Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 The standard approach for making your own SBS/SBR is: File a Form 1 with the ATF. You need two copies, two sets of passport size photos, and two sets of fingerprints. The form needs to be signed off by your CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer), usually the local sheriff or police chief. Enclose a check or money order for $200. You also need to submit a signed Form 1512-0571 (Certification of Compliance with 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(5)B to certify US citizenship or proper immigrant status. Experience has shown that ten to twelve weeks is the average waiting time to obtain approval. There is also some excellent info here which goes into more detail including situations where your CLEO refuses to sign the Form 1. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/...ist/nfa_faq.txt That's all well and good, but can a wanker (such as myself), residing in a pinko-tree hugging-liberal state such as Washington State, which has verbotten ALL machinegun, SBR and SBS ownership, can such a wanker still pursue ownership of these type of weapons via the trust route???? Please forgive my insolenct tone.... I didn't get my Starbucks this morning. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted October 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 It's just one of those topics like compliant parts, AGP and others that come up all the time. we stickied the 922R info and it seems to have helped with new threads popping up every day. Just trying to think ahead with this one.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrance@iacwds.com 716 Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 I don't know about a trust, but going with a corporation eliminates the need for a CLEO sign off. 1911 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 That's all well and good, but can a wanker (such as myself), residing in a pinko-tree hugging-liberal state such as Washington State, which has verbotten ALL machinegun, SBR and SBS ownership, can such a wanker still pursue ownership of these type of weapons via the trust route???? Please forgive my insolenct tone.... I didn't get my Starbucks this morning. Think you would have to get involved in some type of Class III license, like a dealer's, to get around all the 'verbotenness' cursed upon your state. That is the situation across the river in Illinois. Maybe someone on the forum with knowledge from that state can chime in and enlighten us. I hate getting up before 10 am and prefer to start the day with some 20 or 30 weight coffee also. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Garys4598 1,065 Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 That's all well and good, but can a wanker (such as myself), residing in a pinko-tree hugging-liberal state such as Washington State, which has verbotten ALL machinegun, SBR and SBS ownership, can such a wanker still pursue ownership of these type of weapons via the trust route???? No. It doesn't provide any extra allowances. I don't know about a trust, but going with a corporation eliminates the need for a CLEO sign off.1911 So does a trust. I've got a machine gun, SBR, and suppressor. The first as private citizen, the last two under a trust. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 (edited) Here's what I sent to another member a while back... I have moved to an area that has already put out that they won't sign so don't bother asking and I was a bit bummed out since there are more things out there that I want and its my right to own them in KY. Then I found this discussion, I suggest you read the whole thing whenever you have time, it spells it out pretty well including some examples. (page 3 and 31 give examples of the Forms, pg 31 also has links to someone's Trust who's already done it using Quicken Willmaker) http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&...9942&page=1 I've admittedly read it several times Basically it says that you can form a "revocable living trust" through either a lawyer (big ) or using software (I used Willmaker bought from Ebay) and then whenever you have NFA stuff transfered, you transfer it to the trust. The trust is in your name and you have total control of the trust assets (guns). You have language in there that says where the items in the trust go when you die, you can split it however you want, similar to a Will and just like a Will you can amend it and make changes as needed. In the Trust there is a page called "Schedule A" that lists the trust's assets that you update whenever you buy/sell things. THE ADVANTAGE is you need no CLEO signature, fingerprints, or photo for transfers. You still have to pay the $200 and the transferee is John Doe Revocable Living Trust or whatever instead of just you. State laws vary though. Everyone needs their trust notorized when they sign it and some states require you to file a copy, my state doesn't. The software knew everything I needed to do and made it super easy. I created my Trust and Certification of Trust (short form saying the trust exists) and had them both norized free at my bank. I've sent in a Form 1 to make a SBR and transferred a suppressor on a Form 4. You just have to include a copy of the Certfication of Trust whenever you send in a form, NOT the whole Trust. Its totally legal and a great alternative for those that can't get CLEO signatures. Some people recommend forming a Corporation, they say its easy and it gives DUAL POSSESSION, as in you form a corp and make your friends all board members and they get to borrow your NFA stuff. BUT, I decided against this route since you have alot of fees in forming, yearly taxes that must be done by a CPA, annual local fees, and other requirements like minutes from meetings. With a trust, only I'm allowed to possess the guns, but, it only cost very little in setup and no further requiremnts or money. Some people think if you are married and set up a joint trust then you AND you're wife own the NFA stuff, but the ATF says the law makes no allowance for this in a letter dated Sept 9, 1999 stating- "The National Firearms Act provides that, for any person legally to receive or possess an NFA firearm, such firearm must be registered to him in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record... For purposes of these statutory provisions, the term "person" is defined as "[a] partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation, as well as a natural person. See 27 C.F.R. section 179.11. This definition does not include married couple or, for that matter, any other dual or multi-party entities with the exception of formally established partnerships, companies, associations, and corporations. Indeed, there exists no statutory or regulatory authority that can be construed to permit the transfer or registration of an NFA firearm, on a joint basis, to two or more natural persons, including two natural persons constituting a married couple. Accordingly, such transfers and registrations cannot be approved. Oh, and if this wasn't great enough, transfers to Trusts are FASTER than those to individuals! It takes about 35 days. Edited October 12, 2007 by KySoldier Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Garys4598 1,065 Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 (edited) That's all well and good, but can a wanker (such as myself), residing in a pinko-tree hugging-liberal state such as Washington State, which has verbotten ALL machinegun, SBR and SBS ownership, can such a wanker still pursue ownership of these type of weapons via the trust route???? No. It doesn't provide any extra allowances. THAT'S what I figured. Many thanks KySoldier! Oh bloody-well? My dream of owning and cherishing a SBS is shot-to-shit.... but I'll get over it. Edited October 12, 2007 by Gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Gary Never EVER get over it. Get POLITICAL! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
busy_squirrel 1 Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 Gary - We "mere citizens" can't own SBR/SBS or MGs, but AOWs are legal. Washington State Attorney General Opinion This means that the Serbu Super Shorty is legal. Also, it would be possible to buy a "pistol grip SBS", like a Tromix SBS IF it is "a weapon that as originally manufactured is not intended to be fired from the shoulder is neither a shotgun nor a short-barreled shotgun." I know in Serbus case, they get around this law by purchasing the "shotgun"with pistol grip from the factory, then shortening them. That'd be awesome if Saigas had the option to be ordered by Class 3s with a pistol grip, then those of us behind enemy lines could line up for semi-auto, short-barreled, smooth-bore, AOW goodness. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 It would be nice for those who want to go pistol if there were a USA made reciever. Register the virgin as whatever you want. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Koliadko 207 Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 Gary Never EVER get over it. Get POLITICAL! Amen G O B!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Garys4598 1,065 Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 (edited) Gary - We "mere citizens" can't own SBR/SBS or MGs, but AOWs are legal. Washington State Attorney General Opinion This means that the Serbu Super Shorty is legal. Also, it would be possible to buy a "pistol grip SBS", like a Tromix SBS IF it is "a weapon that as originally manufactured is not intended to be fired from the shoulder is neither a shotgun nor a short-barreled shotgun." I know in Serbus case, they get around this law by purchasing the "shotgun"with pistol grip from the factory, then shortening them. That'd be awesome if Saigas had the option to be ordered by Class 3s with a pistol grip, then those of us behind enemy lines could line up for semi-auto, short-barreled, smooth-bore, AOW goodness. A heck of a THANK YOU goes out to busy_squirrel! I'm always amazed.... but the stuff and information that I ignorantly don't know about. busy_squirrel you've made my day! ~Gary Edited October 13, 2007 by Gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Garys4598 1,065 Posted October 14, 2007 Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 Hey busy_squirrel - After doing some internet searching, I think I like the below AOW Remington a bit better than the SERBU option. It's the REMINGTON 870LM 12ga Breeching Firearm. Whadda think? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
busy_squirrel 1 Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 (edited) I prefer the Serbu because I've fired 3" magnums outta a eight inch barrel or so before, and got tired of my glove slipping off the front of the gun at the same time an explosion is exiting the barrel. I like the folding vertical grip idea. The Serbu is 16.5" OAL with a 6.5"bbl but only a 2 + 1 capacity. It's $750 +shipping +WA sales tax +5 AOW stamp Another option is: Elite Tactical Systems (in TN) makes this Rem 870 with an OAL of 23.5". It has a 11 7/8 barrel and 4 + 1 cap. It does not come with the Mesa Tactical shell holder though ETS says they will install one for you, if you like, for more money of course. The front strap design has also changed slightly to this: With Speedfeed "whippet" grip like in the picture it's $550 +shipping +Class 3 fees +5 AOW stamp. Or you can get it with dual vertical grips, it's $500 +shipping +Class 3 fees +5 AOW stamp. If you're on a budget, this model seems to be the way to go. But I hadn't read anything on the 870LM. Got anymore info? OAL? bbl length? capacity? price? Edited October 15, 2007 by busy_squirrel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKOK 4 Posted October 17, 2007 Report Share Posted October 17, 2007 I just got my form1 SBR approval back via the Revocable Trust method. While it is a very easy document to produce with a program such as Willmaker its important to have a lawyer in your state review it. Last thing you want to happen is for the document not to stand up in court if it was ever examined. With the growing popularity of the Trust method the ATF is beginning to look more cloesly at the documents. You must now include a copy of the entire document when you submit the form1. Also remember you have to name the beneficiary that will get the property upon your death. You must make sure they know the procedure they have to go thru to legally transfer the NFA items. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
micah360 6 Posted October 31, 2007 Report Share Posted October 31, 2007 (edited) Here's my two SBRs that I did on a trust. Thanks to KYSoldier for the help he provided. And, here's a great link of how-to for the process (don't worry... it's short and schweet). EDIT: I tried to post the URL link but I guess it's too long of an address and it won't work. Anyways... just Google the words "arizona nfa trust" and it's the first link that comes up. Edited October 31, 2007 by micah360 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MCASgt New River 10,036 Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 After some careful consideration I'm thinking of starting a Revocable Trust. Has anyone in North Carolina done this before, I'm very interested in discussing this with you if so? Please PM me contact info or I can offer mine. Thanks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MCASgt New River 10,036 Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 (edited) Form 4 & TRUST mailed off today!!! I'll keep a time line to see how long this takes!! Edited March 21, 2008 by MCASgt New River Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dodgeturbointerceptor 1 Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Good Luck! Bout time! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MCASgt New River 10,036 Posted March 27, 2008 Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 Mailed 3/21/08 Check Cashed 3/26/08!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MCASgt New River 10,036 Posted May 5, 2008 Report Share Posted May 5, 2008 (edited) My Form 4 is now PENDING as of 04/30/08 !!!!! Edited May 5, 2008 by MCASgt New River Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MD_Willington 11 Posted May 6, 2008 Report Share Posted May 6, 2008 Hey busy_squirrel - After doing some internet searching, I think I like the below AOW Remington a bit better than the SERBU option. It's the REMINGTON 870LM 12ga Breeching Firearm. Whadda think? They are cool...! I know if I had a prohibited endorsement back home in Canada, I could walk right in to my favorite dealer and just buy it... no NFA crap to deal with... A bunch of us have been contacting .gov employees in WA state to get the retarded suppressor laws changed so that we can actually USE a suppressor we own on a firearm instead of just having one as a paper weight... check it out: Let's Change Washington State's Silencer Laws http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=331390 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
busy_squirrel 1 Posted May 6, 2008 Report Share Posted May 6, 2008 My trust was formed 3/3/8 and the Super Shorty was purchased the same day. Check was cashed mid-March, but still no word. I'll update when I hear something. I kinda think the problem is a state level one, as WA was not officially recognize AOWs inside of most firearms laws. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madmax4x4 68 Posted July 15, 2008 Report Share Posted July 15, 2008 Dammit I was going to use my corp. but I know now that the Trust is better, so I ordered Will Maker 2008 so I could get my mac suppressor and SBS saiga. Just put it on the computer and started when I ran into this. Your Legal Residence Your legal residence, also called your "domicile," is the state where you live now and intend to keep living. Your choice here affects many aspects of your living trust, including the ways you can set up management for any trust property that young beneficiaries may inherit and, if you are married, what property belongs to each spouse. (You may notice that the list of states doesn't include Louisiana. We didn't forget it -- but because Louisiana law is fundamentally different from all other states, you can't use Quicken WillMaker's trust if you live there.) So I have a new copy of Quicken WillMaker for sale. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ocean1 0 Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 Hello new here, I set up a trust with Bob Howell who wrote the article earlier posted on this thread,. I would highly recommend him not only because he is highly intelligent but also he is truly a down to earth guy who loves discussing firearms and is amazingly knowledgeable about firearms. He goes to knob hill every year and knows just about all the who's who in the industry. After he set up my trust he even was able to get me a great deal on a gemtech g5 can by speaking directly to the CEO who is is buddy. I am a real estate attorney in Florida and even with my law degree I felt far more secure with Bob setting up my trust ( and also you save 200 dollars annual with a trust as opposed to other forms of incorporation, no finger prints or sign off by sheriff, Google his name for contact info. Good Luck and do it before the ATF closes this loophole! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KPSYID 0 Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 WHATS UP PEOPLE. I'M GETTING READY TO BUY MY FIRST CLASS III FIREARM, THE SAIGA 12. THAT WEAPON IS SO COOL. I'M NOT REALLY LIKING THE STOCK VERSION. THE SKELETON STOCK, AND A PICITINNEY RAIL WITH A VERTICAL GRIP, ARE WHAT I'M WANTING TO ADD ON. MY QUESTION IS, CAN THOSE ITEMS BE INSTALLED BY ANYONE OR WILL I NEED TO SEND IT TO A GUNSMITH? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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