semi-n00b questions

[av8or 0]

well i've been lurking here for a little bit, and lurking around saiga's for a couple of years

am i correct in believing that the 12's only come in 19" barrels? (not looking for shorter, longer is fine)

secondly, what woudl be my best bet for getting one that has a pistol grip and a fixed/telescoping stock? (don't want a folder, fixed is fine with PG, would prefer telescoping stock though)

fyi i'm in upstate ny and i know theres goofy laws around here per the user moving to buffalo thread

i've seen the russian made 'skeletonized' stock/pg assembly but obviously that doesn't work for 922r regs, not worried about 10rd mags, the 5/8 rd ones are fine since it would just be for home defense, plinking, possibly skeet/trap (or at least trying it out)

 

thanks in advance to any help/info/suggestions any of ya'll can give me

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

well i've been lurking here for a little bit, and lurking around saiga's for a couple of years

am i correct in believing that the 12's only come in 19" barrels? (not looking for shorter, longer is fine)

secondly, what woudl be my best bet for getting one that has a pistol grip and a fixed/telescoping stock? (don't want a folder, fixed is fine with PG, would prefer telescoping stock though)

fyi i'm in upstate ny and i know theres goofy laws around here per the user moving to buffalo thread

i've seen the russian made 'skeletonized' stock/pg assembly but obviously that doesn't work for 922r regs, not worried about 10rd mags, the 5/8 rd ones are fine since it would just be for home defense, plinking, possibly skeet/trap (or at least trying it out)

 

thanks in advance to any help/info/suggestions any of ya'll can give me

They also come with 22" and 24" barrels.

 

Aren't PGs also illegal in NY? (on semi auto shotguns)

[Navy87Guy 1]

The skeletonized stock is perfectly legal under 922R -- it is not considered a pistol grip. In fact, you can buy a Saiga imported in that configuration.

 

If you want to go with the PG/telescoping stock, then your best bet it to do the full conversion. You'll have no problem with 922R compliance then. The S12 has 13 parts - 14 when you add the pistol grip. The FCG replacement takes care of 3 parts, so you only need one more to be compliant.

 

If you don't do the conversion, your options are pretty much limited to the ACE PG/buttstock for unconverted Saigas. They will count as 2 parts - but you'll still need two more to be compliant. The "quick fix" would be to use the 10-rd AGP mags (3 US parts), but then the stock mags would make you illegal. Lots of threads with various ways to achieve compliance - but the cheapest and easiest route is just to convert and be done with it.

 

This is all assuming your goofy NY laws don't prevent you from doing any of the above (thank goodness I live down here in the Commonwealth!)

 

Jim

[Eric Pate 478]

Dude, love the MST3K avatar. Now thats kickin it old-school!

[av8or 0]

Dude, love the MST3K avatar. Now thats kickin it old-school!

 

lol thanks, almost used the torgo one but figured that would be less recognizable

 

and with help from a friend of mine found out that yes, for some reason in ny, the restrictions on semi-auto shotguns is greater than semi-auto rifles

so because of the removeable mag, can't do anything else to it as far as pg, the skeletonized stock might be a 'loophole' no pun intended

for future references, here's the regs

 

Miscellaneous:

 

It shall be unlawful to possess any "assault weapon" or a "large capacity ammunition feeding device". So called "assault weapons" lawfully possessed prior to September 14, 1994 and "large capacity ammunition feeding devices" manufactured prior to such date are grandfathered. A license shall not be issued for a handgun defined as an "assault weapon." Any person lawfully in possession of a firearm, rifle or shotgun who suffers the loss or theft of said weapon shall within twenty-four hours of the discovery of the loss or theft report the facts and circumstances of the loss or theft to a police department or sheriff's office. It is a crime to possess any rifle, shotgun or handgun in or upon the building or grounds of any school, college or university in the state without the written permission of the institution. It is a crime to possess a fake or imitation handgun with intent to use it unlawfully. It is a crime to intentionally point any firearm toward another person (except in self defense), even if no malice is involved. It is a crime to deface or alter the serial number or any other distinguishing number or identification mark on any handgun. Possession of any handgun that has been defaced creates a legal presumption that the possessor committed the offense. The presence of a firearm in a vehicle is presumptive evidence of its possession by all persons occupying the vehicle except if: the firearm is found upon the person of one of the occupants; the firearm is found in a vehicle operated for hire by a duly licensed driver, then the presumption will not apply to the driver, or the firearm found is a handgun and one of the occupants has in his possession a valid license to have and carry concealed. Note: In this digest, the word "firearm" is used in its general sense, i.e., any rifle, shotgun, or handgun. However, readers of the New York law should be aware that the term "firearm," when it appears in the text of the statutes, has a special meaning, being applied only to handguns and other firearms "of a size which may be concealed upon the person."

 

An "assault weapon" means (a) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following characteristics: (i) a folding or telescoping stock; (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; (iii) a bayonet mount; (iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; (v) a grenade launcher; or (a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least two of the following characteristics: (i) a folding or telescoping stock; (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; (iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds; (iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine; or © a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following characteristics: (i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip; (ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer; (iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned; (iv) a manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; (v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic rifle, shotgun or firearm; or (d) any of the weapons, or functioning frames or receivers of such weapons, or copies or duplicates of such weapons, in any caliber, known as (i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (All Models); (ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil; (iii) Beretta Ar70 (Sc-70); (iv) Colt Ar-15;(v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC; (vi) SWD M 10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12; (vii) Steyr Aug; (viii) Intratec TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and (ix) Revolving Cylinder Shotguns, such as (or Similar to) the Streetsweeper and Striker 12; (e) provided, however, that such term does not include: (i) any rifle, shotgun or pistol that (a) is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever or slide-action; ( has been rendered permanently inoperable; or © is an antique firearm as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16); (ii) a semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than five rounds of ammunition; (iii) a semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine; (iv) a rifle, shotgun or pistol, or a replica or a duplicate thereof, specified in appendix A to section 922 of 18 U.S.C. as such weapon was manufactured on October 1, 1993. The mere fact that a weapon is not listed in appendix A shall not be construed to mean that such weapon is an assault weapon; or (v) a semiautomatic rifle, a semiautomatic shotgun or a semiautomatic pistol or any of the weapons defined in paragraph (d) of this subdivision lawfully possessed prior to September 14, 1994.

 

"Large capacity ammunition feeding device" means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device, manufactured after September 13, 1994, that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition; provided, however, that such term does not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition.

[av8or 0]

sorry for the double post, was gettin ips errors didn't realize it took the first time

Edited October 17, 2007 by av8or

[Bvamp 604]

you cannot PG a saiga shotgun in NY state. You also arent supposed to have magazines for it in excess of 5 rounds, although some guys will argue that you can have the 10 round US made mags. This isnt true, but to each thier own.

 

the magazine thing with round limits in the law is interpreted as INCLUSIVE, meaning a fixed mag in excess of five rounds - or a detachable magazine is interpreted uniformly as a detachable mag in excess of 5 rounds, and also the other inhibitor is that it CAN ACCEPT a mag in excess of 5 rounds, because 8 10 and 20 round magazines, even though illegal in NY, are in fact manufactured, and as such, enables the gun to be able to attach the mags.

 

if you want to play it safe, dont PG the gun or get mags for in in excess of 5 rounds. further, you cannot put the russian flash hider on the threaded muzzle versions of the saiga shotguns, as the facist pricks back home down consider the slotted flash hider on the saiga shotguns a ported open choke to help stabalise your shot patterns.

 

sorry buddy! at least you can HAVE a saiga shotgun, with 5 round detachables, unlike the guys in commiefornia.

 

trust me, you will still turn MANY heads with a saiga shotgun, and it will outperform just about every shotgun you put it against for practical use. Ive taken whitetail in the snow with mine and not even bothered wiping it down after coming in the house, and even outshot a LOT of guys with close in skeet, and mine at least, will hold a 1 hole slug group at 50 yards with a red dot sight with remington dome sluggers.

 

hope this helps.

[Twinsen 86]

I have the same laws as you in CT, and I'm converting to a skel stock. Big brother can suck a cock, because I'm not breaking any written laws.

[GTwannabe 1]

you cannot PG a saiga shotgun in NY state. You also arent supposed to have magazines for it in excess of 5 rounds, although some guys will argue that you can have the 10 round US made mags. This isnt true, but to each thier own.

 

the magazine thing with round limits in the law is interpreted as INCLUSIVE, meaning a fixed mag in excess of five rounds - or a detachable magazine is interpreted uniformly as a detachable mag in excess of 5 rounds, and also the other inhibitor is that it CAN ACCEPT a mag in excess of 5 rounds, because 8 10 and 20 round magazines, even though illegal in NY, are in fact manufactured, and as such, enables the gun to be able to attach the mags.

 

You are allowed 1 evil feature from the below list on semi-shotguns in NY:

 

(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds;

(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine;

 

Since we're talking Saigas, you get (iv) by default. Even if (iv) is somehow interpreted as "an ability to accept a detachable magazine in excess of five rounds", that's still only 1 evil feature.

 

(iii) does not apply to the Saiga, as it has no fixed magazine; it accepts detachables. (iii) applies to non-detachable magazines that are part of the firearm (tube fed shotguns, etc.) For (iii) to be inclusive of detachable magazines, it would need to read "a fixed or detachable magazine capacity in excess of five rounds". However, it wasn't written that way, so that's not the law.

 

Detachable magazines are not considered part of the firearm, which is why (iv) reads "an ability to accept a detachable magazine" and not "a detachable magazine." Maximum detachable magazine capacity is limited to 10 rounds by the "Large capacity ammunition feeding device" section, as it is not defined in the "Assault Weapon" definitions.

[Garys4598 1,065]

I readily admit to not knowing shit-from-shiola when it comes to the gun restrictions and laws of New York state.... but if I were in semi-n00b's shoes and had any questions concerning said constraints, I'd listen to what Bvamp has to say first.

 

Just my humble suggestion.

[GTwannabe 1]

I readily admit to not knowing shit-from-shiola when it comes to the gun restrictions and laws of New York state.... but if I were in semi-n00b's shoes and had any questions concerning said constraints, I'd listen to what Bvamp has to say first.

 

Just my humble suggestion.

 

NY has a mirror of the 94 AWB on the books, sans the sunset provision. If it was a legal configuration during the 94-04 AWB, it's legal in NY.

 

During the federal AWB, several people on this board contacted the BATF to check the legality of using Russian 8-round magazines on their Saigas. The gist of the BATF response was this:

 

1. The Saiga was approved for import with the 5 round magazine, it would not be importable with the 8-round

2. Using the 8-round magazine is OK if you comply with 922®

3. A Saiga with a magazine capacity of 10 rounds or less is legal and not an "assault weapon" unless it has a second "evil feature" (folding/collapsible stock or pistol grip)

 

The expiration of the federal AWB has caused some headaches for us NY residents:

 

- During the federal ban, you could buy pre-ban magazines from out of state legally, as the post-ban 10+ magazines were dated/marked LEO only. Now that the federal ban has expired, 10+ magazines are no longer dated/marked and can't be distinguished from the legal pre-ban versions. As a result, dealers have halted all sales of NY-legal pre-ban high-caps to residents of NY.

 

- During the federal ban, the BATF ruled on the status of muzzle devices as either non-evil feature "muzzle-breaks" or evil feature "flash suppressors." Since the federal ban has expired, the BATF no longer issues those rulings, as it's no longer a matter of federal law. Neither muzzle-breaks or flash suppressors are defined in the NY law, as it is a copy of the federal law that delegates the definition of those terms to the BATF.

 

- Gun makers have brought back pre-ban configurations as the default and now you have to special order post-ban NY legal AR-15's, AK's, etc.

[GTwannabe 1]

further, you cannot put the russian flash hider on the threaded muzzle versions of the saiga shotguns, as the facist pricks back home down consider the slotted flash hider on the saiga shotguns a ported open choke to help stabalise your shot patterns.

 

Where in the NY State penal code does it state that you can't have a flash suppressor on a semi-automatic shotgun like the Saiga? Flash suppressors are evil features on semi-automatic rifles and pistols, but they are not one of the 4 listed characteristics of semi-automatic shotguns:

 

(i) a folding or telescoping stock

(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon

(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds

(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine

 

New York City has it's own definition of "Assault Weapon"... maybe you're thinking of that:

 

"It is unlawful to possess or dispose of an "assault weapon," which is defined as any semiautomatic rifle or shotgun which has one or more of the following features: folding or telescopic stock or no stock, conspicuously protruding pistol grip, bayonet mount, flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor, barrel shroud, grenade launcher, or modification of such features, or other features determined by the police commissioner to be suitable for military and not sporting purposes."

[Bvamp 604]

go get your gun confiscated then, dont listen to me.

 

I consulted :

 

3 NY attourneys, all pro gun, one of whom handles NRA cases

2 dealers BOTH of whom know thier laws

1 head of DEC of NYS

2 state trooper armorers at seperate troops

1 judge in dutchess county ny

handful of police

1 NY ATF head

 

ALL are unofficial and unretained.

 

 

....but what would I know....

 

I wouldnt go putting no skeleton stock with the pistol grip onit. a skeleton stock for an AKM DOES NOT NORMALLY have a pistol grip on it like the saiga stocks do. those are in violation.

 

the mag laws are read UNANIMOUSLY as INCLUSIVE.....

 

you MIGHT get away with a US ten round mag. MAYBE. but thats about it.

 

one of the explanations (from my favored dealer actually) that made the most sense, was that in the grey area, because it CAN be read YOUR way, it can ALSO be read the OTHER way. and if YOU get away with it when they pull the chord on you, the door WILL SHUT on everyone else in a clear fashion to avoid further confusion on the matter.

 

I didnt write the laws, dont be mad at me. I did my homework though, and Im just telling you what I found out....

[wali 0]

Mmmm... Grenade launcher on a semi-auto shotgun...

 

"What officer? Its for those really damn big elk! I swear!"

 

Wipe out a whole flock of ducks at once with a beehive round...

 

 

Personally, I would just leave it the way you bought it and use the factory mag, then you can't really be held relabile for anything since its the way it came from the factory... They can't say your breaking the law if your not skirting it... Just my 2 cents though.

[Bvamp 604]

too bad we dont have elk. there is the occasional moose where I lived, however. my indian brother has been hunting the wally that showed up a couple years ago, without results. he wants to eat it, I guess.