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1st Time Poster Couple of Questions


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Hi, this is my first time posting here, I have been doing a lot of reading but still have a couple of questions.

 

1) Can the 20 rd drum magazine be used without adding parts to the shotgun to make it compliant?

 

2) Is there any sort of thumbhole stock avaliable that will bolt on the Saiga 12 configuration with the trigger staying in the farthest back position? If so, where can I find it and does anything need to be done to make the weapon compliant if doing this change?

 

My plan at this time is to buy the basic (cheaper, cost is a factor) shotgun from Atlantic firearms and hopefully getting a drum and a no mods needed thumbhole stock and calling it good at that.

 

I live in Okla so I dont see any problems with legalities like a person in NY or CA would run into.

 

Thanks.

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Hi, this is my first time posting here, I have been doing a lot of reading but still have a couple of questions.

 

1) Can the 20 rd drum magazine be used without adding parts to the shotgun to make it compliant?

 

2) Is there any sort of thumbhole stock avaliable that will bolt on the Saiga 12 configuration with the trigger staying in the farthest back position? If so, where can I find it and does anything need to be done to make the weapon compliant if doing this change?

 

My plan at this time is to buy the basic (cheaper, cost is a factor) shotgun from Atlantic firearms and hopefully getting a drum and a no mods needed thumbhole stock and calling it good at that.

 

I live in Okla so I dont see any problems with legalities like a person in NY or CA would run into.

 

Thanks.

 

OK, here's my best shot:

 

1) It depends on your interpretation. Consider the three magazine pieces (not sure how you'd separate them with the drum, but it's moot anyway) as US Made. That gives you 10....or 11, if your barrel is threaded. There seems to be some debate as to whether a threaded barrel with no actual extension, just a thread protector, would still be counted as a Muzzle Accessory on "The List". I personally feel that since there's no real accessory attached (no flash hider, suppressor, choke, etc.) then there is in fact no accessory. Most people err on the side of caution (which is probably wise) and still count it. So if you have a threaded barrel, to err on the side of caution,.....then no, you would still need to swap out one more part to get to 10.

 

2) I believe there is a skeletonized stock that will fit unmodified Saiga....THERE it is. http://www.gilbertsguns.com/index.php?requ...;categoryid=439

However, IIRC, and I'm sure someone will pop up during "normal business hours" to fill in the blanks, there was a ruling from the ATF that a stock like a thumbhole, skeleton, etc. where the thumb was not completely above the trigger was still classified as a pistol grip, and therefore subject to compliance. Soooo, if you did this, without doing a full conversion, your only real option for compliance is using US Made mags, and maybe changing a gas piston or the handguard.

 

Clear as mud? Good, glad I could help :)

Edited by BlackBear
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2) I believe there is a skeletonized stock that will fit unmodified Saiga....THERE it is. http://www.gilbertsguns.com/index.php?requ...;categoryid=439

However, IIRC, and I'm sure someone will pop up during "normal business hours" to fill in the blanks, there was a ruling from the ATF that a stock like a thumbhole, skeleton, etc. where the thumb was not completely above the trigger was still classified as a pistol grip, and therefore subject to compliance. Soooo, if you did this, without doing a full conversion, your only real option for compliance is using US Made mags, and maybe changing a gas piston or the handguard.

The stock you reference comes on Saigas, so evidentally that particular stock isn't "evil".

 

p_saiga_option.jpgClicks

 

The question is: Does a drum magazine have a floorplate?

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2) I believe there is a skeletonized stock that will fit unmodified Saiga....THERE it is. http://www.gilbertsguns.com/index.php?requ...;categoryid=439

However, IIRC, and I'm sure someone will pop up during "normal business hours" to fill in the blanks, there was a ruling from the ATF that a stock like a thumbhole, skeleton, etc. where the thumb was not completely above the trigger was still classified as a pistol grip, and therefore subject to compliance. Soooo, if you did this, without doing a full conversion, your only real option for compliance is using US Made mags, and maybe changing a gas piston or the handguard.

The stock you reference comes on Saigas, so evidentally that particular stock isn't "evil".

 

p_saiga_option.jpgClicks

 

The question is: Does a drum magazine have a floorplate?

Correct. I would like to know if the back cover could be considered a FP. If not then I only see two parts...body and follower.

Like Black Bear said the piston and HG are both very easy to change.

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I don't think how you count the drum parts matters...I could be wrong, but follow me here.

 

922 only specifies that you can't have more than 10 foreign made parts.

 

So, you have:

 

(1) Receiver

(2) Barrels

(3) Muzzle attachments (shotguns w/ threaded barrels only)

(4) Bolts

(5) Bolt carriers

(6) Gas pistons

(7) Triggers

(8) Hammers

(9) Disconnectors

(10) Buttstock

(11) Forearms, handguards

 

Discounting the magazine parts, these are the only foreign parts left in the gun, and that's all that matters. So you only need to replace one of these.

 

Of course, you might add one to the parts count if you add the thumbhole stock...'cause who knows if they'd count it as one part (Buttstock) or as two (buttstock and pistol grip)

 

But, unless I'm wrong on this, the addition of the drum leaves only 11 foreign parts - doesn't matter how many US parts you have. Even if you have only the body and follower, and don't count the back of the drum as a floorplate, you still don't have a foreign floor plate to count as a foreign part.

 

Am I making sense here? Because I feel like I'm running around in circles...my thoughts go a lot faster than I type.

Edited by BlackBear
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Blackbear, if a 3-US-part shotgun mag is used in the Saigas, no mods to the actual gun are required. I believe that is the OPs intent and interest.

 

Edit: ... and I am bad at math.

Edited by nalioth
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I don't think how you count the drum parts matters...I could be wrong, but follow me here.

 

922 only specifies that you can't have more than 10 foreign made parts.

 

So, you have:

 

(1) Receiver

(2) Barrels

(3) Muzzle attachments (shotguns w/ threaded barrels only)

(4) Bolts

(5) Bolt carriers

(6) Gas pistons

(7) Triggers

(8) Hammers

(9) Disconnectors

(10) Buttstock

(11) Forearms, handguards

 

Discounting the magazine parts, these are the only foreign parts left in the gun, and that's all that matters. So you only need to replace one of these.

 

Of course, you might add one to the parts count if you add the thumbhole stock...'cause who knows if they'd count it as one part (Buttstock) or as two (buttstock and pistol grip)

 

But, unless I'm wrong on this, the addition of the drum leaves only 11 foreign parts - doesn't matter how many US parts you have. Even if you have only the body and follower, and don't count the back of the drum as a floorplate, you still don't have a foreign floor plate to count as a foreign part.

 

Am I making sense here? Because I feel like I'm running around in circles...my thoughts go a lot faster than I type.

 

 

 

I think so, I am sure I will get it figured out as I go along. I plan to replace the factory mag with a US made one, and the butt stock with a synthetic thumbhole so I guess that will replace the necessary foreign parts, correct?

 

One more question, does anyone know why the two guys that are making drums for these shotguns stayed with 2 3/4 inch instead of going with 3 inch? Is there a law I have not read about yet?

 

 

Thanks for the help everyone, I posted another post thanking everyone for their advice but it seems the internet monster ate it.

Edited by waltham_41
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Magazine body, follower, and floorplate each count as one part.

 

Yeah, kind of. They only count as one part if they're foreign manufactured. It doesn't matter how many US parts you have in, only how many foreign parts. That's the thing I was trying to point out above (and I'm not sure I was being clear on it) is it doesn't matter if the drum counts as having a floorplate, or just a body and follower. Even if you count the drum only as a body and follower (this counting as "two parts") there is still no floorplate - domestic or foreign - so you're still only counting foreign parts as 11 (10 if you don't count threaded barrel).

Edited by BlackBear
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The shotgun will be in tuesday, I have the Russian skeleton stock, a 10 rd mag, am on the list for the 20 rd drum (MD) and am going to put the Russian Ak sight and muzzle break from the store here on it.

 

If the stock counts as one, the sight counts as one, and the muzzle break counts as one, the 3 pieces of the US mags and drum would even it out right?

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if you go backwards thinking...

from factory you need to eliminate 4 parts

drum eliminates 3

i bought a wraithmaker stainless piston to get rid of the 4th part

i have said stock on mine... i like it

 

muzzle attachement needs to be us made

the forum store has russian made

 

edit to add: blackbear put it the same as i figure

just reduce foreign parts to 10 or less

Edited by mccumber1916
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if you go backwards thinking...

from factory you need to eliminate 4 parts

drum eliminates 3

i bought a wraithmaker stainless piston to get rid of the 4th part

i have said stock on mine... i like it

You are thinking of the Saiga rifles. The shotguns only need 3 US parts.

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Not that it matters, but I suspect a drum has 3 parts. My reasoning being is that the original SKS non-detachable mags have three parts even though there is not separate floorplate... just a stamped, one-piece housing which made up the external magazine.

 

In short, if you follow the parts count that the ATF specified to Soupbowl Enterprises owner, then the Saiga shotgun has 13 foreign parts. Neither a muzzle attachment, pistol grip nor trunion was specified as an imported part per 922r. (NOTE: At the time of this ruling in 1997, there were few to no S12s were being imported with threaded barrels and external chokes by Kalashnikov USA. If you don't believe me, just post a question to the forum members here asking, "Does your Kalashnikov USA imported Saiga 12 have original factory threading?" Personally, I'd like to know that answer to this because I have never seen one.)

 

So, if you add a Russian thumhole stock.. you have just added a pistol grip and your parts count is 14. If you have a threaded muzzle WITH AN ATTACHMENT, I would recommend counting it as a part... bringing your parts count to 15. Then if you dispose of the Russia magazine(s) and only use US mags/drums your part count is 12.

 

Now you have a several ways to get rid of two imported parts, a few include:

- Replace the gas piston with a US gas piston

- Replace the hammer with a US hammer

- Get rid of the Russian thumbhole and use a US thumbhole (this would replace two parts by itself)

- Remove the muzzle attachment or use a US muzzle attachment (e.g. Tromix or Polychoke items)

- Replace forearm with a Halo quadrail forearm

Edited by RDSWriter
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if you go backwards thinking...

from factory you need to eliminate 4 parts

drum eliminates 3

i bought a wraithmaker stainless piston to get rid of the 4th part

i have said stock on mine... i like it

You are thinking of the Saiga rifles. The shotguns only need 3 US parts.

 

Sorry nalioth but would you mind elaborating on that statement some?

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Thinking about getting a 21" Saiga next time I see one in person. Does anyone make an RPK style stock? Would they fit in a Saiga? K-Var has a Plum stock set listed as Sold Out (don't like the plum anyway).

 

 

If not I still have my old skeleton stock so maybe I'll just get a scope and call it a Saigunov...

 

 

if you go backwards thinking...

from factory you need to eliminate 4 parts

drum eliminates 3

i bought a wraithmaker stainless piston to get rid of the 4th part

i have said stock on mine... i like it

You are thinking of the Saiga rifles. The shotguns only need 3 US parts.

 

Sorry nalioth but would you mind elaborating on that statement some?

From the tech section, it says factory Saiga shotguns have 13 countable parts. 13 - 3 = 10

So you would only need 3 US parts to use a high capacity magazine and be in compliance.

 

Is the tech section wrong?

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So, with the Tromix shark break screw on and the usa made gas piston, I would have the russian made skeleton stock covered?

 

So if the AK style sights do not count on the foreign numbers I do not have to worry about it,

 

I would be covered as long as I used USA made mags.

 

 

 

OK, one last question, How hard is it to change the gas piston? I have never changed one before.

 

Many thanks to you guys for being so patient with me on this, I dont wanna go to jail LOL

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So, with the Tromix shark break screw on and the usa made gas piston, I would have the russian made skeleton stock covered?

 

So if the AK style sights do not count on the foreign numbers I do not have to worry about it,

 

I would be covered as long as I used USA made mags.

 

 

 

OK, one last question, How hard is it to change the gas piston? I have never changed one before.

 

Many thanks to you guys for being so patient with me on this, I dont wanna go to jail LOL

 

Just a second, I am going to try a stab at the math, if I add the russian skeleton stock that adds a point, but if I put an american gas piston in that evens that out. The AK sight does not count, if I use a USA made shark break, I should be able to use the russian 5 rd mag too, correct?

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So, with the Tromix shark break screw on and the usa made gas piston, I would have the russian made skeleton stock covered?

 

So if the AK style sights do not count on the foreign numbers I do not have to worry about it,

 

I would be covered as long as I used USA made mags.

 

 

 

OK, one last question, How hard is it to change the gas piston? I have never changed one before.

 

Many thanks to you guys for being so patient with me on this, I dont wanna go to jail LOL

 

Just a second, I am going to try a stab at the math, if I add the russian skeleton stock that adds a point, but if I put an american gas piston in that evens that out. The AK sight does not count, if I use a USA made shark break, I should be able to use the russian 5 rd mag too, correct?

You adding a russian skeleton stock should not change anything, if you use the Saiga skeleton stock (they are importing and selling saigas with this stock now). 003376.medium.jpg

 

If your shotty does not come with a muzzle device, you are not gaining any 'points' at all by adding a US made muzzle device. You are actually adding one part to the countable total.

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So, with the Tromix shark break screw on and the usa made gas piston, I would have the russian made skeleton stock covered?

 

So if the AK style sights do not count on the foreign numbers I do not have to worry about it,

 

I would be covered as long as I used USA made mags.

 

 

 

OK, one last question, How hard is it to change the gas piston? I have never changed one before.

 

Many thanks to you guys for being so patient with me on this, I dont wanna go to jail LOL

 

Just a second, I am going to try a stab at the math, if I add the russian skeleton stock that adds a point, but if I put an american gas piston in that evens that out. The AK sight does not count, if I use a USA made shark break, I should be able to use the russian 5 rd mag too, correct?

You adding a russian skeleton stock should not change anything, if you use the Saiga skeleton stock (they are importing and selling saigas with this stock now). 003376.medium.jpg

 

If your shotty does not come with a muzzle device, you are not gaining any 'points' at all by adding a US made muzzle device. You are actually adding one part to the countable total.

 

That is the Saiga stock that I am installing, and the threads on the end of the barrel have what looks like in the pic a protection cap screwed onto the end of the barrel. Would that count as a foreign point?

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You adding a russian skeleton stock should not change anything, if you use the Saiga skeleton stock (they are importing and selling saigas with this stock now).

 

Now, maybe the ATF has changed what they consider a sporting configuration for the S12 recently... I honestly don't know.

Question to RAA or someone who might know - Are the S12s with thumbhole stocks leaving their bonded warehouse in that configuration?

Your letter is prehistoric, by ATF ruling terms. They've wigwagged hundreds of times since then.

 

The Saiga (Option) rifle shown on this page http://www.raacfirearms.com/rifles.htm is being sold as we speak. A number of folks have received them. Legally there is no difference between the use of this stock on a shotty or rifle.

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Naolioth:

 

I just want everyone to undertand the arbitrary nature by which they hinge their 'parts count'. Case in point - here is a more recent letter that was sent by the Tech Branch AFTER the expiration of the AWB. Note that they are consistent and specific when they state that a thumbhole is BOTH a stock and a pistol grip. This being said, they also narrow their interpretation to state that "answers are applicable to .223, 7.62x39mm, and .308 calibers."

 

So, maybe a thumbhole is okay on a shotgun because it is not a pistol grip - or if it is they consider a thumbhole shotgun sporting. But it is a most definitely a pistol grip for "parts count" on the Saiga rifle series.

------------------------

U.S. Department of Justice

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,

Firearms and Explosives

 

NOV 1, 2005

 

903050:ELG

3311/2005-663

 

Dear Mr. LESchwartz:

 

This refers to your letter, received by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), Firearms Technology Branch (FTB), September16, 2005, pertaining to a Saiga AK-type semiautomatic rifle. Specifically, you requested a clarification regarding modifications to Saiga rifles. Your letter was forwarded to FTB?s new location in Martinsburg, WV, for reply.

 

As you may be aware, the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), 18 U.S.C. ? 922?, prohibits assembly of certain semiautomatic rifles and shotguns from imported parts. The implementing regulations contained in 27 CFR ? 478.39 (formerly 1 78.39) include the stipulation that ?no person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of certain imported parts, if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under 18 U.S.C. ? 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.?

 

These parts are tabulated below:

 

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings.

(2) Barrels.

(3) Barrel extensions.

(4) Mounting blocks (trunnions).

(5) Muzzle attachments.

(6) Bolts.

(7) Bolt carriers.

( Operating rods.

(9) Gas pistons.

(10) Trigger housings.

(11) Triggers.

(12) Hammers.

(13) Sears.

(14) Disconnectors.

(15) Buttstocks.

(16) Pistol grips.

(17) Forearms, handguards.

(1 Magazine bodies.

(19) Followers.

(20) Floor plates.

 

Because certain AK-type semiautomatic rifles are currently prohibited from importation, the assembly of such rifles using more than 10 of the above imported parts is prohibited under ? 922?. However, assembly of AK-type semiautomatic rifles using 10 or fewer of these imported parts is not prohibited under this section.

 

With respect to the questions in your letter, we will answer them in the order they were posed, as follows:

 

Question 1: Would modifying a Saiga rifle by replacing the existing buttstock with a (thumbhole style) stock result in a rifle prohibited from importation under Title 18 USC, Section 925(d)?

 

Answer: Yes. if your Saiga rifle is assembled using more than 10 of the imported parts in the above-cited 922?.

 

Question 2: With reference to the parts listed in Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 478 (formerly Part 178), section 478.39?: Is thumbhole style stock counted as a buttstock, as a ?pistol grip?, or both?

 

Answer: Both: The thumbhole stock about which you inquire is considered a combination of a pistol grip and a buttstock, therefore counting as two parts with reference to the parts listed in 27 CFR 478.39 (formerly 178.39). Please note that the above answers are applicable to .223, 7.62x39mm, and .308 calibers.

 

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your questions.

 

Sincerely yours,

 

Sterling Nixon

Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

-----------------

 

Clear a mud, eh? Just keep this in mind if you are considering a thumbhole on a rifle...

Edited by RDSWriter
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