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6.5 Grendel vs 308 win


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#1 buckandaquarterquarterstaff

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 09:45 PM

I've been reading alot about the 6.5 Grendel as the solution to all problems, but when I consult the ballistics charts I'm still thinking the 308 is the better go to arms choice. What's your opinion on the matter?

For my part, I think it's a big step up for somone who has the AR platform, but given a choice (having not bought into the AR platform), I'm having a difficult time seeing why to go with that over a 308 for numerous reasons. Can anyone show that it's better from the get go?

The attached isn't very convincing if you ask me, especially given that they are comparing premium bullets in the 6.5 to mil spec fodder.

#2 gunnysmith

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 10:01 PM

Using the term "go to" would imply a local supply of ammunition.
The 6.5 doesn't met that requirement. The 308 does.

#3 RedFalconBill

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 11:50 PM

I've been reading alot about the 6.5 Grendel as the solution to all problems, but when I consult the ballistics charts I'm still thinking the 308 is the better go to arms choice. What's your opinion on the matter?

For my part, I think it's a big step up for somone who has the AR platform, but given a choice (having not bought into the AR platform), I'm having a difficult time seeing why to go with that over a 308 for numerous reasons. Can anyone show that it's better from the get go?

The attached isn't very convincing if you ask me, especially given that they are comparing premium bullets in the 6.5 to mil spec fodder.


The Grendel was NEVER meant to go up against the .308. It was meant to be better than the .223, when shoe horned into the AR-15/M-16 platform. Same thing with the 6.8 SPC.

This is an apples to oranges comparision.

The thing that the Grendel DOES do is equal or suprass the .308 in terms of bullet drop and wind drift.

I do not know any AK style rifles out there that are chambered in 6.5 Grendel.

In an AK platform, if you want more power than the .223, but less bullet drop than the 7.62x39, pick the .308.

#4 Zebra

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 09:47 AM

here is some info on the 6.5 grendel

6.5 grendel

and here is the complete wikipedia of rifle rounds

List of rifle cartridges

i hope that helps you out

#5 GunnyR

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 10:54 AM

Using the term "go to" would imply a local supply of ammunition.
The 6.5 doesn't met that requirement. The 308 does.



+1

Although lately, even the local supply of ammo is drying up.
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#6 buckandaquarterquarterstaff

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 06:13 PM

The Grendel was NEVER meant to go up against the .308. It was meant to be better than the .223, when shoe horned into the AR-15/M-16 platform. Same thing with the 6.8 SPC.

This is an apples to oranges comparision.

The thing that the Grendel DOES do is equal or suprass the .308 in terms of bullet drop and wind drift.

I do not know any AK style rifles out there that are chambered in 6.5 Grendel.

In an AK platform, if you want more power than the .223, but less bullet drop than the 7.62x39, pick the .308.


That's pretty much what I thought initially, but some members of the AR crowd have been touting it as equal to or better than the 308. That's something that I couldn't see as its sort of a mini-mini WSM as compared to the 308. Obviously, it's better at some things, not as good at others.

Downrange energy is much more important to me than is wind drift or drop. There's really no such thing as a flat shooting cartridge beyond 300 yards that is less than completely punishing, and within 300 yards the difference between most cartridges is a matter of an inch or so.

#7 RedFalconBill

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 08:09 PM

That's pretty much what I thought initially, but some members of the AR crowd have been touting it as equal to or better than the 308. That's something that I couldn't see as its sort of a mini-mini WSM as compared to the 308. Obviously, it's better at some things, not as good at others.

Downrange energy is much more important to me than is wind drift or drop. There's really no such thing as a flat shooting cartridge beyond 300 yards that is less than completely punishing, and within 300 yards the difference between most cartridges is a matter of an inch or so.


Better is a slippery word. Are the 6.5 and the 6.8 better than the .223/5.56 at killin' people dead? Yes, without a doubt.

Are they better than the .308/7.62......depends upon what you mean by better.

Both rounds will:
Recoil less than a .308/7.62
Allow you to carry more ammo than a .308/7.62 rifle will
Allow you to use the existing AR-15/M-16 platform (albeit with new uppers and mags needed) with no new manual of arms to learn.

Will either 6.X round:
Break cinder blocks into pieces like the .308/7.62? No. The better question to ask is this fact important? It is if you are being attacked by cinder blocks, use this test as a measure of 'power' (whatever that means), or have lots of people who hide behind cinder block walls that need killin' and you have no M240 support. They do a better job on this sort of thing than the .223/5.56.

Allow you to reliably and humanely take game up to Elk? No. Does this matter to the people who are using the 6.X rounds? Again, No. These rounds were designed to take down man, not game.

KE is, IMO, the ability to do work, nothing more. Having more of it does allow you to extend range, etc, etc, but KE in and of itself is not the critical factor. The fact that the Grendel does equal or surpass the .308 in terms of bullet drop and wind drift DOES create some interesting advantages in certain DM and Sniper situations. While the .338LM is becoming 'the round in certain sniper circles, it is still not that widely used. Like it or not, the .308/7.62 is still slogging on, and will do so for the next couple of decades.

Being able to use a AR-15/M-16 platform gun (NOT the AR-10) that fires a round which allows us you to use the BDC info on a TA-01B, TA-11C/E or TA-55A, with less recoil, less muzzle blast, that has 25 round magazines, and will weigh around 5 KG +/-. That is not a bad DMR, if you ask me. Slap a LR/T or scope of your choice on it, and it will do most, if not all of what a M24A2/M40A3, et al, can do. Plus it has the advantage of being a semi-auto.

None of this has anything to do with Saiga's though.

Edited by RedFalconBill, 24 October 2007 - 07:45 PM.


#8 dasu

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 10:16 PM

the grendel attracts fanatics and controversy. the whole broken bolt thing made me think twice. i still cant figure out the verdict on that, so im not risking any of my money on it. not when i can own a saiga 308 for a fraction of the price which weighs little more than an AR.

if i had rediculous money id build a saiga in Lapuas new 6.5 round.

#9 RedFalconBill

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Posted 24 October 2007 - 07:52 PM

if i had rediculous money id build a saiga in Lapuas new 6.5 round.


Hummmm, a Saiga in 6.5x47 Lapua..... B)

Now that is an interesting idea.

#10 Havoc308

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 04:50 AM

Check out 65Grendel People have killed everything up to an including cow elk with them. I have contemplated purchasing a AR in this caliber, but there are some show stoppers for me.

Price- $600-2300 just for the upper. cartridges at $2
no major manufacturer support for the round (Black Hills and Wolf don't really count IMHO I mean like Winchester, Remington etc)
bolt breakage issue, also applies to 7.62x39 and 6mm PPC
Just too damn new. Being an early adopter costs $$$ plus I'd hate to buy this thing and have Alexander Arms go belly up later on.

Other options:
Have Tromix replace my 308 barrel with one in .260 Remington. Does everything the Grendel does only with more muzzle velocity, fewer problems with cartridge OAL and Remington factory support for ammo. Utilizes the same mags as 308. Probably cost about the same ~$750 and no proprietary BS from Bill Alexander. Plus having Tony Rumore post pix of my new .260 Saiga on this website, PRICELESS!

Tony how about a price?

Edited by Havoc308, 25 October 2007 - 04:53 AM.

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#11 G O B

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 05:44 PM

The ability to shatter cinderblocks is PRICELESS if somebody behind the cinderblocks is shooting at ME!

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#12 RedFalconBill

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 09:04 PM

The ability to shatter cinderblocks is PRICELESS if somebody behind the cinderblocks is shooting at ME!


Myself, I liked using my M203 with M433 HEDP rounds. These do a good job of taking the fight out of anyone.

#13 fossten

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 06:40 AM

The ability to shatter cinderblocks is PRICELESS if somebody behind the cinderblocks is shooting at ME!


Myself, I liked using my M203 with M433 HEDP rounds. These do a good job of taking the fight out of anyone.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I mean, come on, who among us does NOT have an M203 or two just sitting in the gun safe at home? Me, I've got like, uh, two DOZEN o' them things! Yeah, that's the ticket!

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#14 G O B

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 05:58 PM

7.62-54R is the oldest serving round.
It is over 100 years old, and is going strong. The .308 is ballistically close enough to use the same range correcting lines on a 'scope.
We basically modernized the same round.

It is a verry good thing to have.

It goes through things. Sometimes you need that.
It is also a good power/weight VRS 1000yd. accuracy/FPD's of impact energy.
You can carry 200rds. (you may not quite want to, BUT, you CAN).

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#15 RedFalconBill

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 12:23 AM

7.62-54R is the oldest serving round.
It is over 100 years old, and is going strong. The .308 is ballistically close enough to use the same range correcting lines on a 'scope.
We basically modernized the same round.

It is a verry good thing to have.

It goes through things. Sometimes you need that.
It is also a good power/weight VRS 1000yd. accuracy/FPD's of impact energy.
You can carry 200rds. (you may not quite want to, BUT, you CAN).


Isn't the 7.92x57 older at 1888?

Carried a M60 through both Darby Queen and Green Hell, as well as dozens of other s**t dump places on this earth. Later, as a NCO, I helped my troopers with the M240's. Also spend some trigger time behind a M-21. Never did learn that you do NOT volunteer.

I could shoot through cinder blocks walls with my M-4/M-203, it just took 7 or so rounds to make a hole, so as to ensure the bad guy was not an issue. This is why I said I preferred to use the M203. It would blow a hole almost 2' x 2' into the wall. Problem solved. A 7.62x51 rifle could have done the same as my M-4 with 2, maybe 3 rounds, but I do not want to hump that think. No thanks. Sorry, you can keep your 7.62 'power' ideas. We are going after people, not game. KE is as an outmoded way of thinking about 'power' as the 2000 yard 'pine board' tests were over a century ago.

IMO, Steyr, et al, had the correct idea almost 120 years ago.

6.5x53R Dutch
6.5x54 Greek
6.5x52 Carcano

With the 6.8 SPC and the 6.5 Grendel, we have done nothing more then go back reinvent the wheel, albeit with spitzer bullets, selective fire carbines, etc, etc, etc.

There is nothing new in the cartridge arena.

.300WSM (2000) = .308 Norma (1957) = .300 Newton (1912-14)
.375 Ruger (2007) = .375 Newton (1915, conceptually but never produced)

I like the idea of rebarreling a .308 Saiga to 6.5x47 Lapua. It would be better than anything that could fit into a AR-15/M-16 magazine well, as well as having better barrel life than the .260 Remington, and will shoot flatter than any .308/7.62x54 load.

Edited by RedFalconBill, 27 October 2007 - 12:28 AM.


#16 G O B

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 02:50 PM

7.92 is older, but the Mauser round is nowhere as well used for LE/MIL work. The old 7.62-54R and the clone 7.62-51 Nato together comprise most of the marksman's rifles in the world. They also have a huge share of the hunting market.

Edited by G O B, 27 October 2007 - 02:50 PM.

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#17 buckandaquarterquarterstaff

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 04:55 PM

I can't envision having time to hit a wall seven times in the same spot in most situations.

#18 RedFalconBill

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 08:29 PM

I can't envision having time to hit a wall seven times in the same spot in most situations.


Depends upon whether or not you are leading a team on an attack of a building and you are shooting at a point to create a hole to throw a hand grenade in.

I'd rather blow a hole in the wall then shoot at it, but sometimes you needed to save those M203 rounds in order to take out bad guys hiding on roof's or in 2nd and 3rd story windows.

BTT

I, for one, would like to replace BOTH the 5.56 and the 7.62 rounds with either 6.X round, though the Grendel has a wider bullet selection, I would like to see a 120gr 6.8 bullet that has a BC over 0.400, just to allow for greater variation of loads available to the SPC users and to have a little flatter shooting round past 300 meters.

If you are using a Saiga for hunting and want both a flatter shooting round with less recoil then the .308, I still say rebarrel a Saiga for 6.5x47 Lapua because you will get better barrel life (over 5,000 rounds vs. ~3,500 rounds) than a .260 Remington.

Still, it is an experiment, and it is your money.

Good luck with whatever route you choose.

#19 RedFalconBill

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 08:54 PM

7.92 is older, but the Mauser round is nowhere as well used for LE/MIL work. The old 7.62-54R and the clone 7.62-51 Nato together comprise most of the marksman's rifles in the world. They also have a huge share of the hunting market.


I only mentioned the 7.92X57 because Serbia has not yet completly replaced the M-76 and M52, so it still sloggs on.

I'm talking about something different then you are because hunting has no part of the .mil world. The LE world is different than the .mil world with different SOP's, even though there is some crossover.

Users of the 7.62x54R are usually too poor to switch to something else or have tons of crap ammo to burn up. Have no idea why Serbia moved from the 7.92X57 to the 7.62X54R with their M-91 DMR, though the Serb's claim that the M-91 was designed around their Heavy 182gr BT Match Bullet round. This will give the M-91 a small advantage over the rest of the 7.62X54R rifle field. The SVD/PSL/Al Kadesih rifles cannot use heavy bullets reliably enough, so they use the 7N1, 7N13, 7BZ3, and 7T2M ammo, none of which is in the same ball park as the M-118LR ammo we use.

The PKM GPMG beats itself to death in part due to its sheet steel construction and the fact that most gunners know knothing about fire discipline, so they end up burning up the machine gun.

The .338LM has become the 1000,-1,500m sniper round in the world today.

If I could, I would replace both the 5.56 and the 7.62 with one of the 6.X rounds. While I favor the Grendel over the SPC, I would like to see a more aerodynamic 6.8 bullet then the current crop of 110-115gr bullets.

#20 Voodoods

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 02:53 AM

Check out 65Grendel People have killed everything up to an including cow elk with them. I have contemplated purchasing a AR in this caliber, but there are some show stoppers for me.

Price- $600-2300 just for the upper. cartridges at $2
no major manufacturer support for the round (Black Hills and Wolf don't really count IMHO I mean like Winchester, Remington etc)
bolt breakage issue, also applies to 7.62x39 and 6mm PPC
Just too damn new. Being an early adopter costs $$$ plus I'd hate to buy this thing and have Alexander Arms go belly up later on.

Other options:
Have Tromix replace my 308 barrel with one in .260 Remington. Does everything the Grendel does only with more muzzle velocity, fewer problems with cartridge OAL and Remington factory support for ammo. Utilizes the same mags as 308. Probably cost about the same ~$750 and no proprietary BS from Bill Alexander. Plus having Tony Rumore post pix of my new .260 Saiga on this website, PRICELESS!

Tony how about a price?



Hehe- "have killed" and 'should even attempt to kill' are often two things some hunters don't morally perceive; I saw a guy on a thread one time try to argue the virtues of moose hunting with a .223. Many guys will claim they are all about shot placement, but having an adequete gun to harvest game is a big part of being a responsible hunter and warden of nature IMHO.

And I'm always reminded of the fact that people used to crawl into bear dens with .22s and kill bears, and the story of the Alaskan grandma who took a bear on her front porch with a .380 or some little thing....

Can you? Apparently... But I'm not going to try :lolol:

#21 Havoc308

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 11:25 AM

I don't advocate the Grendel as an elk cartridge. To take game humanely, you have to have enough gun for sure. Since I hunt in SC, with our smallish whitetail deer, and never taking a shot over 125 yards the Grendel probably work well. And since our season is from Aug 15 to Dec 31, I can get out in the woods enough to not have to take dicey shots thru brush, running, or long shots. I let more deer walk than I shoot. Still, in hunting, shot placement is highly important to quickly and humanely finishing the animal. Gut shot is still gut shot.
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#22 B-B

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 11:00 AM

Price- $600-2300 just for the upper. cartridges at $2

Barrel and bolt kits are $320, no more than a high quality 556 barrel/bolt. A grendel upper costs the same as a 556 upper. You just have to spend $10 more per mag. And Wolf 123gr SP ammo is $270 per 500, thats 54¢ a round.

I don't get some of these statements; it seems to me that the 6.5 is at least the equal to .308, and superior to the run-of the-mill surplus ammo, based on the attached PDF. When you consider the price of ammo, Grendel is equal to military surplus at $.50 a round. Dollar for dollar energy, drop and drift is better at all ranges. In what way is the 308 superior? If energy is equal, and proper hunting ammo is available at an equal cost, why would you not choose the grendel over the heavier, longer 308 platform? Bullet performance, due to the larger cross section?

Edited by B-B, 04 November 2007 - 11:23 AM.


#23 buckandaquarterquarterstaff

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 08:42 PM

What's that...? I think it's pretty clear that heavier bullets are generally the choice for heavier game. The energy between the two only equalizes well down range, say 1000 yards, and I don't think anyone is advocating taking game at those distances. Within the normal ranges that game is taken at, the 308 has about a 30% energy advangage and a larger cross section, not to mention a much better selection of serious big game bullets.

For things such as whitetails the grendel is plenty adequate, and it can retain a lot of energy a long ways. The grendel is a really nice cartridge, but it doesn't outdo the 308 for most larger game. Much the same way you wouldn't argue that the 308 doesn't outdo the 375 for big game (might work in some cases, but if I'm facing mr grizz then I know which one I want in hand).

#24 dasu

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 09:17 PM

woops

Edited by dasu, 06 November 2007 - 07:42 AM.


#25 dasu

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 09:28 PM

Price- $600-2300 just for the upper. cartridges at $2

Barrel and bolt kits are $320, no more than a high quality 556 barrel/bolt. A grendel upper costs the same as a 556 upper. You just have to spend $10 more per mag. And Wolf 123gr SP ammo is $270 per 500, thats 54¢ a round.

I don't get some of these statements; it seems to me that the 6.5 is at least the equal to .308, and superior to the run-of the-mill surplus ammo, based on the attached PDF. When you consider the price of ammo, Grendel is equal to military surplus at $.50 a round. Dollar for dollar energy, drop and drift is better at all ranges. In what way is the 308 superior? If energy is equal, and proper hunting ammo is available at an equal cost, why would you not choose the grendel over the heavier, longer 308 platform? Bullet performance, due to the larger cross section?



looks like the grendel nuts have invaded this place too.

you cant compare surplus vs high end ammo. all the stats you quote rely on high BC ammo; those are all loaded with lapua bullets. that aint cheap. the ballistics game is open to a lot of cartridges. heck the new hornady round in 223 has more energy than suprlus 308 after 500 yards too.

actually i do think its a good round but its more than the ar can handle. if someone beefs up the bolt it would be ok, but for now the broken bolt stories are very disconcerting. i dont think you want to field something like that, even if the MTBF is 2000 rounds. heck even the mk262 is more than the rifles can handle - they wear down quick

did anyone say 6.8 yet??? :haha:

seriously please dont!


Edited by dasu, 05 November 2007 - 09:29 PM.


#26 acer_saiga308

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 12:33 AM

Not to pull the discussion offtopic, but Ammunition to Go has SA battlepacks for $80.
.308 FTW! :haha:

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#27 Zebra

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 07:46 AM

Not to pull the discussion offtopic, but Ammunition to Go has SA battlepacks for $80.
.308 FTW! :haha:

Acer


is that like a deal or something? i mean i used to buy 7 of the SA battle packs for $165 shipped to the door.

#28 tritium

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 10:50 AM

Not to pull the discussion offtopic, but Ammunition to Go has SA battlepacks for $80.
.308 FTW! :haha:

Acer


is that like a deal or something? i mean i used to buy 7 of the SA battle packs for $165 shipped to the door.

Unless you've been in a coma for the past year, one would have noticed that the cost of a battle pack has gone from $25 up to $70-$90. You'd make a big profit on your $165 if you'd resell it now.
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#29 Zebra

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 04:00 PM

no coma here. i stop following the price on them when they shot past 40 bucks for 140 rounds. i just can't see what the big deal with the SA battle packs are at those types of prices. i used to buy them because they were cheap and good quality ammo but now at 80 bucks for 140 rounds seems a little steep considering the brass is not reloadable.

i guess i was just trying to see what was considered a good deal on them these days.




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