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What should be polished/smoothed to help feeding?


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I've love my S12 but I have had quite a few failures to feed while out shooting, my S308 hasn't ever had a reliability issue thank goodness (even with Indian ammo :haha:).

 

I am going to do the mag fix Mike D outlined for the the Clear AGP mags, and I've cleaned out the entire gas system every time I've take it out to shoot.

 

A few weeks ago I left on a trip for a week and made sure the gun was loaded next to the bed, for my wife, and checked to see if the shells were deformed and they weren't but it wouldn't feed at all. Each round would jam up on the bottom of the ramp with just hand cycling. :blink: I basically just said screw it loaded the factory 5 rounder which has never had a problem ever. But hell the reason I got a S12 was because it can hold and fire more than 5 rounds, that and it is bad ass :super: . I could have snagged an 870 for 200 bucks if I wanted a reliable plain old 5 round shottie.

 

I've tried multiple gas settings 1 and 2 and without fail I will have a couple of FTF when going through a couple of boxes of 100 shells from Wal-Mart.

 

The Winchesters are FTF about every 3 to 4 rounds I stopped using them awhile ago. Federal is usually pretty good with maybe 1 or 2 in about 30 to 40, but eventually after about 150 rounds they move up to FTF every 4 or 5 rounds. Haven't ever had an issue with slugs or buckshot well until the other day before I left for my trip, but that could be because of the tight feed lips on the clear mag.

 

So after seeing all the drum stuff and other mag issues floating around what parts should one polish and smooth out to make feeding better especially for low brass rounds etc?

 

If you have pictures or even crude drawings/diagrams explaining what is going on please post em.

 

Also what do you guys suggest to make it ultra reliable?

I want to use my S12 as my main home defense gun, but right now it is too finicky with anything other than the 5 rounder.

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Click on the pics to make them bigger and markings more visible! After they enlarge click the pic again to make it even bigger. The feed mod is first. I used my dremel with a carbide cutter (dremel

Another thing you can do is polish your bolt carrier and have it chromed. Today, I got back some of my carriers from hard chroming. These came out so good, that I may have t send the rest of mine in.

Pic with edge completely removed, must remove bbl first.

Posted Images

The feed improvement mods are wide spread in threads here. These improvement including polishing the hammer and bolt, some touch up the bolt carrier itself, polish areas of contact to the receiver itself, and you can also make more of a ramp shape out of the bottom of the barrel inside the receiver. I'm not sure where to find all the threads. I will try and make time to take some pics ( if someone could help me out and provide some pics that would be great and save me a lot of time). I have done most of these mods on my latest saiga-12 conversion (please note that I haven't even used my drum in this saiga-12 because it doesn't fit with the magwell design that is on it, my drum has required no mods to work in any saiga-12 I have had it in). All my others saigas have not had any mods like this done to them so I will be able to post side by side pics of a modded and unmodded one. One of the best mods you can do is reshape the feed ramp area. The only ramp it has is right off the top of an inserted mag and that slanted area runs right into over hang from the barrel (which means it basically isn't even a feed ramp). That is why those low rounds that are jamming get caught. Take your saiga and get it to low feed and jam and you will see exactly the area I'm talking about. These are the "top secret" mods being used by WM I'm sure. That have been fairly common knowledge here for yrs and used by many. It takes about 30 minutes to perform them all with just a dremel so save yourself $180.00.

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The feed improvement mods are wide spread in threads here. These improvement including polishing the hammer and bolt, some touch up the bolt carrier itself, polish areas of contact to the receiver itself, and you can also make more of a ramp shape out of the bottom of the barrel inside the receiver. I'm not sure where to find all the threads. I will try and make time to take some pics ( if someone could help me out and provide some pics that would be great and save me a lot of time). I have done most of these mods on my latest saiga-12 conversion (please note that I haven't even used my drum in this saiga-12 because it doesn't fit with the magwell design that is on it, my drum has required no mods to work in any saiga-12 I have had it in). All my others saigas have not had any mods like this done to them so I will be able to post side by side pics of a modded and unmodded one. One of the best mods you can do is reshape the feed ramp area. The only ramp it has is right off the top of an inserted mag and that slanted area runs right into over hang from the barrel (which means it basically isn't even a feed ramp). That is why those low rounds that are jamming get caught. Take your saiga and get it to low feed and jam and you will see exactly the area I'm talking about. These are the "top secret" mods being used by WM I'm sure. That have been fairly common knowledge here for yrs and used by many. It takes about 30 minutes to perform them all with just a dremel so save yourself $180.00.

 

If you can spare the time for pics that would be awesome.

 

Maybe get a stickied thread somewhere explaining what needs to be modded.

 

I will take a look tonight when I work on the clear mags gotta have something to tinker on ;)

 

What you're describing is exactly what is happening when it has a FTF. The round basically impales itself on the metal lower projection from the barrel. Sometimes barely missing other times almost dead center of the shell.

 

I have a dremel and all the grinding wheels, I could make the entire inside mirror shine if needed I just need a good visual to know what parts honestly need it.

 

Sadly I'm the only guy in my group of friends into Saigas let alone willing to take a dremel to his guns lol.

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The top round needs to sit at an angle that lets it feed into the barrel. If it sits low enough to hit dead center of the barrel's lower protrusion like you said, then that is a mag problem not a "feed ramp" problem.

 

Check the later treads on mag repairs which discuss the feed lips and/or the restriction relating to the inner width being too tight. Your top round should sit up at the angle of your 5 rounder.

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The top round needs to sit at an angle that lets it feed into the barrel. If it sits low enough to hit dead center of the barrel's lower protrusion like you said, then that is a mag problem not a "feed ramp" problem.

 

Check the later treads on mag repairs which discuss the feed lips and/or the restriction relating to the inner width being too tight. Your top round should sit up at the angle of your 5 rounder.

You are right. For the very most part when this happens it was a mag problem to begin with. But doing this will help make your gun more reliable with such problems. When I did mine I had some agps that was feeding low. Before I fixed the agps, I did this mod and they worked the way the was. But I still tweaked the mags in right afterwards also.

 

Reoiv, I'll get you some pics up in the next day or 2.

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I figured out what is going on.

 

The stupid recoil buffer was keeping the bolt from going back far enough to easily eject the last shell. So by the time it grabbed the next shell the old one was still half-assed in there shoving the new shell down and weakly ejecting the spent one.

 

Then the new unshot one didn't rise high enough and would feed partway or jam up. Or I would get a crazy FTE with the old one part way out and hte new one stuck half way in.

 

I removed the buffer and there are no hand cycling problems at all. The gun cycling is noisy but hell if it works I don't care.

 

I may slightly smooth out that bottom edge of where the shell goes in and the bolt locks up though it is pretty rough there.

 

And the bottom of the bolt could be smoothed up a bit especially the part that twists into the place where it twists to lock up.

 

I can see quite a few places where the shells have been rubbing etc.

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When I joined here, recoil buffers seemed to be all the rage. I don't think I ever said anything about it, but I figure if they were helpful at all, Kalashnikov would have them in AK's.

 

When they were the big rage I bought one for my Romanian WUM1 AK and my Romanian Romak 3. I didnt have any trouble with them but read that they bounced the bolt and carrier back faster than they should be cycled and could cause troubles.

 

I took them out and didnt look back.

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so why dont someone slam blackjack, then?

 

it would be ON PAR..........

 

 

...........??????????

Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!

 

But seriously, probably because of the cost of the buffers in comparison to other items.

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The buffer works fine in a standard AK where the bolt over-travels the ejector and magazine-well by about 1.5". But in the Saiga-12, the bolt only over-travels the ejector/mag about 3/8". So when you put that buffer in there, the bolt barely clears the ejector before it starts forward again. It's also barely cleared the back of the mag, so you don't have much time to lift the next shell up for feeding either. It's a lose-lose deal.

 

Here's a pic of the bolt smoothed and polished, both locked and unlocked. You only need to polish one surface of the actual bolt head, but two surfaces on the rotating locking body.

 

Bolt2.jpg

 

Bolt1.jpg

 

 

Tony

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Sounds like a fabulous and useful idea you got there Gary! Make a single post and call it "HELP" in the Tech Section, then label each link as to what problem it addresses. As per the truth that "no good deed goes unpunished...", I am happy that you have volunteered to make this a better board for us all. You are to be commended and given some kind of recognition medal by Makc. (he should be able to pick one up in Russia wholesale) Thanks Gary! Yea Gary!

Anonymous

Edited by 1911
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Sounds like a fabulous and useful idea you got there Gary! Make a single post and call it "HELP" in the Tech Section, then label each link as to what problem it addresses. As per the truth that "no good deed goes unpunished...", I am happy that you have volunteered to make this a better board for us all. You are to be commended and given some kind of recognition medal by Makc. (he should be able to pick one up in Russia wholesale) Thanks Gary! Yea Gary!

Anonymous

 

Friggen Asshole!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:lolol: ...... :haha:

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I have BlackJack buffers in my S-12(green) and my S-.308 (black), and in the wife's S-.410 (green) and have had no problems. The Saiga's need the thinner buffers some other brands are too thick for them to cycle properly.

.

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I'll tell you straight up Gary.

Do you have ANY IDEA how much time it takes to put together just ONE simple tutorial on ...lets say...threading a bbl, since that's prolly the shortest one I personally have posted on here?

Honestly, I have little idea regarding the time that would be required with such an endeavor.... arguably, it would be a huge undertaking. BUT AN UNDERTAKING THAT IS WELL OVERDUE, NO? (I'm not shouting at you; I'm just striving to make a big point.)

 

 

My only gripe is that there are too many regular simple questions that have already been answered a million times taking up room in there now. If people would do a little research before taking the easy way out then that wouldn't happen.

I absolutely empathize with your frustration in this regard; the recurring "simple questions" new forum members and visitors make. I'm witness to it all the time. Yet, it may not be a bridge too far were such a "one stop shop" thread that provided steps and illustrations on all Saiga "tweaking and modifications" to have the capability of combating those type of simple questions as well. No?

 

 

I have spent a HUGE amount of my own free time doing things like that on this forum. If I could add up all the time I have spent teaching on here and compare that to how much money I would have made had I spent that same time working, I could buy this forum and run it myself the way I see fit.

Well... I've no qwuip or smart-mouthed comeback to this (imagine that?). As you well know I greatly respect you and your efforts to support everyone here.

 

 

If it hasn't become readily apparent by now, the bottom line up front for me is: I find myself frustrated by all the little things I didn't know that I could do or might have already done to my Saiga shotgun to significantly increase its reliability and performance; steps and procedures that I simply was completely ignorant about but which I could perform without some like Tony Rumore or a gunsmith to get involved with.

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Another thing you can do is polish your bolt carrier and have it chromed. Today, I got back some of my carriers from hard chroming. These came out so good, that I may have t send the rest of mine in.

 

Carriers.jpg

 

SCHWING!!

Me likey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What does something like that cost to chrome?

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You don't have to have em chromed to make em look good. Now hard chrome could reduce the amount of drag on the rails, hammer face, and gas tube, but a good polish job and CLP will do a good job too. If you have your bolt carrier bead blasted it will have a nice satin finish and all you have to do is keep it lightly oiled once in awhile.

You can also get some paint from the auto parts store that works good for making them shiny instead of black.

 

This one of mine was only bead blasted and lightly polished.

post-1293-1193443397_thumb.jpg

Edited by Cobra 76 two
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The buffer works fine in a standard AK where the bolt over-travels the ejector and magazine-well by about 1.5". But in the Saiga-12, the bolt only over-travels the ejector/mag about 3/8". So when you put that buffer in there, the bolt barely clears the ejector before it starts forward again. It's also barely cleared the back of the mag, so you don't have much time to lift the next shell up for feeding either. It's a lose-lose deal.

 

Here's a pic of the bolt smoothed and polished, both locked and unlocked. You only need to polish one surface of the actual bolt head, but two surfaces on the rotating locking body.

 

Bolt2.jpg

 

Bolt1.jpg

Tony

 

Thank you so much, I was thinking that was the area I could buff up and smooth out.

 

You've proved yet again why you're the man (not that you needed to lol)

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