SKS or S .308

[NY-proletariat 0]

The new Kel-Tec 308 bulpup looks like it has promise too and it takes cheap FAL mags unlike our Saigas that have to have modified mags or not so cheap plastic mags whose durability leaves a lot to be desired!

 

 

 

As far as an AK shooting 500 yds(308) it's nut behind the butt that makes the shot. Having an AK done up like a sniper version does not a sniper make. I've known many a man who tried to buy their shooting abilities from a gun store and it never works. Which only means more profits for the gun store when the guy brings back his "pipe dream" and trades in for another fantasy. If keeping our consumer base economy going is your goal then this is a great idea. But if becoming a good rifle shot is your goal, then practicing and even competing in rifle matches(in which you learn tons of new info from the old pros) will be the better bet. Which means learning what guns work,what loads are good at what ranges, and how to read and adjust for wind at those longer ranges(300 yds and up). Scoped rifles are not allowed and at matches where they are( ie; sniper type) then you'll quickly learn that an AK type rifle is in the basement when it comes to accuracy. And remember......only hits count! I suggest going to local CMP club and shoot at couple of matches(many clubs have Garands you can use or rent) to really see what shooting at long range is all about. Then you'll be able to make wiser choices as to what new rifle you need to spend your hard earned FRN's on.

 

Now as far as an infantry rifle whose reliability and rugedness is unexcelled, then an AK is the choice. But remembering that an infantry rifle is something that is supposed to be used in an infantry/assault mode with plenty MG's,RPG's and tons of air , armor,and artillery support and a never ending supply of ammo and food that comes from the rear......something none of has unless your related to Bill Gates or Warren Buffet!

[bigcrabrob 0]

The new Kel-Tec 308 bulpup looks like it has promise too and it takes cheap FAL mags unlike our Saigas that have to have modified mags or not so cheap plastic mags whose durability leaves a lot to be desired!

 

 

 

As far as an AK shooting 500 yds(308) it's nut behind the butt that makes the shot. Having an AK done up like a sniper version does not a sniper make. I've known many a man who tried to buy their shooting abilities from a gun store and it never works. Which only means more profits for the gun store when the guy brings back his "pipe dream" and trades in for another fantasy. If keeping our consumer base economy going is your goal then this is a great idea. But if becoming a good rifle shot is your goal, then practicing and even competing in rifle matches(in which you learn tons of new info from the old pros) will be the better bet. Which means learning what guns work,what loads are good at what ranges, and how to read and adjust for wind at those longer ranges(300 yds and up). Scoped rifles are not allowed and at matches where they are( ie; sniper type) then you'll quickly learn that an AK type rifle is in the basement when it comes to accuracy. And remember......only hits count! I suggest going to local CMP club and shoot at couple of matches(many clubs have Garands you can use or rent) to really see what shooting at long range is all about. Then you'll be able to make wiser choices as to what new rifle you need to spend your hard earned FRN's on.

 

Now as far as an infantry rifle whose reliability and rugedness is unexcelled, then an AK is the choice. But remembering that an infantry rifle is something that is supposed to be used in an infantry/assault mode with plenty MG's,RPG's and tons of air , armor,and artillery support and a never ending supply of ammo and food that comes from the rear......something none of has unless your related to Bill Gates or Warren Buffet!

 

 

I think you were addressing someone else, but in response I must admit your right! If you can't shoot.. you cant shoot! Its like a bad driver buying a Bugati V. for 1,400,000.00 and expecting to win races. I am buying the Saiga .308 because once I am a more SKILLED shooter, I will have a platform with enough power and barrel (22") to reach out and touch someone/some paper It's a plus that the Version 21 looks so good stock, it just looks accurate and mean. It doesnt hurt that you can get 25 round mags for these babies too. Any way, this post got a little crazy....... but thats cool, Its like a dude soap-opera. Good shooting..... and Happy Thanksgiving day!!!!!!!!!

 

Robert

Beaumont.

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

Finding a 500 yard accurate autoloader for around $400 is an impossible dream, so get over it and buy a quality bolt gun. Now if you had $1500 to spend, then you'd have lots to choose from, but still only a few good choices. Consider the saiga a solid 300-350 yard gun, and reconsider if you need a 500 yard gun. Neither the Saiga 308 nor the SKS will hold decent "groups" to 500 yards. By group, I assume you mean hitting the pie plate sized target of an average being or beast's vitals.

 

I think once you run the numbers a tapco'd SKS runs about as much as a base saiga 308. The saiga 308 is a whole lot more cartridge than the 7.62x39 that the SKS runs, but the SKS is a fine weapon for the money (if you keep it stock that is). The SKS has some advantages with it's stripper clips and ability to digest damn near anything. It's accuracy is on par with the saiga, and possibly a bit better if you get a good example of one. For the $'s to effectiveness decision within 200 yards the SKS wins hands down.

 

For what you're after (if you really need a 500 yard gun after further consideration), I follow the suggestions of previous posts and suggest you invest in a solid bolt gun. Your choices in capable 500 yard guns should include the remington 700, savage 10fp, cz550, mossberg, or even some of the quality surplus guns such as a swiss K31, or a sweede mauser (if you get lucky and find one). The issue with most surplus guns is scope mounting, and without a scope your 500 yard gun is pretty much back to a 300 yard gun. The AR doesn't have enough punch at 500 yards to be considered (based on less energy at range for other than wounding), but it holds its own on accuracy and reliability (if you do the minimum on your part to keep it clean). Good luck, and let us know if you find a good compromise that suits you.

[Cryptkeeper 0]

I would not have a M1a(m14) ive heard to many horror stories about them.if you've gotten 1 that you have put a couple 1000 rnd through it with no problems you are one of the few lucky ones. i would rather have saiga 308 over the sks for the more power but ammo isnt all that cheap if prices of ammo is a problem i would look at the AK 7.62, in my neck of the wood you would be lucky to get 300yrd shot only if your target is stupid enough to walk out in an open paster/field which there isnt many. AR15 are great at the range great accuracy keep them clean and you dont have many problems. BUT if the SHTF and you got to grab a weapon had head to the hills the AK (saiga 308) is what you want . i seen on weaponology the other day, they showed the new flight vest our troops are wearing they showed an ar15,9mm,and ak all shooting this 1 vest and not 1 bullet got through but they didnt try a 308 rnd (food for thought). if your wanting a weapon to hammer nails in at 1000yrd a bolt action is what you need but at that range you also need a pocket cal. to figure your trajectory or know/remmber the math to do it.

Edited November 22, 2007 by Cryptkeeper

[bigcrabrob 0]

I hear what your saying, and I know that my Mosin Naggie slams stuff out to 200 to 250 Yards.... its just my eyes with no scope that restricts me past that.

I dont want the 7.62x39 because of its loss in power out over 200 yards. The .308 with some mods will have knock down power well out to 300-500 yards.

I dont need to hit paper at 500 yards, or any beastie at that, I just want the ability to hit with my first shot out to 500 yards if needed. I cant say the follow up shots will be any good, but the first one should hit something 4 1/2 feet tall and 5 feet long. Glad to hear that you feel so strongly about the SKS... there are some haters on here Is it most of your opinions that if I get an SKS it should be left stock? I have heard the first thing you need to improve accuracy is to get a synth stock. Also, tapco sells a picatinny tri rail reciever mount that they claim to be rock solid - "holds zero" Any truth to that? Is it worth scopeing the SKS?

 

Robert.

Beaumont.

[Motopilot1 37]

horror stories on the m14? really like what i know about the slam firing issue but what else because i have had nothing but good luck with mine. the slam firing can be dealt with with harder primers is all

[paul kersey 0]

thanks for the info, truth. sounds good. the thing that sold me on the new ver, was as you said, the new trigger. now, to start savein. lol...pk

[beaver007 0]

do any you guys have military experiance on this matter

[Motopilot1 37]

no military experience but ive been shooting since i was 4 your not going to try to tell me that because theres no military experience i have no oppinion are ya

[Cryptkeeper 0]

they have had all kinds of problems from mag falling out to shell extractors flying out to jamming problems,if it isnt mil-spec it isnt worth getting.

[Motopilot1 37]

milspec the m1a is being used to this day when i spoke w/ springfield i had to track one down because the military was getting all of them

[Cryptkeeper 0]

not all from springfield are mil-spec or any manufactorer

[bigcrabrob 0]

I have no armed services exp, but my friend does. 8 years Army. He held a sharpshooter designation, but said that meant little. He does have friends that used .308 in their sniper training and even as a sniper. The round is capable, just depends on the gun and the shooter..... the best shooters in the world will say that almost any gun will hit given target with proper know-how. Opinions are like assholes... everyone has one

 

Robert,

Beaumont.

[Motopilot1 37]

http://www.answers.com/topic/m1a-rifle-1

just a little info on the m1a maybe its the m14 you heard about but cant find anything bad on the springfield m1a

[Cryptkeeper 0]

i know the range owner was talking about new springfield M1a mags. falling out but as far as the rest not really sure what company made them cause it was some friends was at an appleseed training corse they seen all of them break down some old ,some new but ALL had problems my friend shortly after returning sold his.the range owner stressed you have to get a mil-spec reciver he seemed to know what he was talking about

[Motopilot1 37]

o well i will shoot mine until something happens then sell it and buy a FAL

[Ruffian72 548]

Like most subjects, we get way off from original subject. Plinker/self defense upto 100yds, either will do in basic mode. Longer ranges with tack driver results, just start with quality. Hits versus knock down. Seen great deer shots upto 400 yrds with bolt 22.06/243/308's. Human 223/7.62x54/308's. Not knowing what's upsitting the dogs at night on the farm. 30/30 winchester or M1A Socom. Lot of family have SKS's for vehicle needs.

[NY-proletariat 0]

After owning many hundreds(yes hundreds!) of military type rifles over the years, I've yet to find one that didn't break or become unreliable after awhile or even out of the box. I was around when you could've had any of them for alot cheaper than you can get even a cheap nock off today. FN's, HK's AUG's, AR's M-1A's, Garands,Cetme's (Real ones, not the rebuilt ones of today) BM-59's&62's, FAMAS,and many others. All gave me trouble at one time or another. If you really want to see if your rifle works, take a 3-5 day rifle course at Gunsite or one of the other popular schools. You'll soon find out what works and what doesn't. Shooting over a thousand rds under filed conditions in a short time will separate the wheat from the chaff! The same goes for add-ons like scopes, lasers, and other paraphenalia that are useless when subjected to the stresses of realistic conditions and not shooting range or bench rest conditions. As far as miltary experience goes....the miltitary deosn't really train peole to shoot well. The weapons they give you are not issued to you by your choice but by orders and the lowest bidder. Special units may have a choice, but they're few and far between.

 

I do have an M-1A that has well over 20,000 rds through it and it still works and I still use it to shoot CMP matches every year! I've added nothing to it either. Just ammo and cleaning. It's rack grade...and it'll hold 3-4 inches at 200 yds with surplus ball if I do my part(from slinged prone, not the bench).

 

I seriously doubt a Saiga(308) "sniper"can shoot a target at 500 yds with a cold barrel. Especially with a sling mount that will change your point of impact as will shooting from a bipod mounted on the barrel. Especially if your not schooled in how to judge and adjust for wind. I doubt you could do it with surplus ball consistently and the Saiga's barrel twist isn't fast enough to stabilize heavier match bullets. The cartridge is capable but the platform isn't. The one guy was right who said you ain't gettin' a sniper/match grade gun for $400. Like I said If buying a new gun and keeping our consumer based economy going is your thing, then by all means have at it. But if you're looking to make a silk purse from a sow's ear, then I'd look else where. But if you ever do make it work....publish your results here for all to see....I'd be very interested in learning something new!

[Cryptkeeper 0]

After owning many hundreds(yes hundreds!) of military type rifles over the years, I've yet to find one that didn't break or become unreliable after awhile or even out of the box. I was around when you could've had any of them for alot cheaper than you can get even a cheap nock off today. FN's, HK's AUG's, AR's M-1A's, Garands,Cetme's (Real ones, not the rebuilt ones of today) BM-59's&62's, FAMAS,and many others. All gave me trouble at one time or another. If you really want to see if your rifle works, take a 3-5 day rifle course at Gunsite or one of the other popular schools. You'll soon find out what works and what doesn't. Shooting over a thousand rds under filed conditions in a short time will separate the wheat from the chaff! The same goes for add-ons like scopes, lasers, and other paraphenalia that are useless when subjected to the stresses of realistic conditions and not shooting range or bench rest conditions. As far as miltary experience goes....the miltitary deosn't really train peole to shoot well. The weapons they give you are not issued to you by your choice but by orders and the lowest bidder. Special units may have a choice, but they're few and far between.

 

I do have an M-1A that has well over 20,000 rds through it and it still works and I still use it to shoot CMP matches every year! I've added nothing to it either. Just ammo and cleaning. It's rack grade...and it'll hold 3-4 inches at 200 yds with surplus ball if I do my part(from slinged prone, not the bench).

 

I seriously doubt a Saiga(308) "sniper"can shoot a target at 500 yds with a cold barrel. Especially with a sling mount that will change your point of impact as will shooting from a bipod mounted on the barrel. Especially if your not schooled in how to judge and adjust for wind. I doubt you could do it with surplus ball consistently and the Saiga's barrel twist isn't fast enough to stabilize heavier match bullets. The cartridge is capable but the platform isn't. The one guy was right who said you ain't gettin' a sniper/match grade gun for $400. Like I said If buying a new gun and keeping our consumer based economy going is your thing, then by all means have at it. But if you're looking to make a silk purse from a sow's ear, then I'd look else where. But if you ever do make it work....publish your results here for all to see....I'd be very interested in learning something new!

 

 

well said, is your M-1A mils-spec?

[loki0629 55]

Can't speak for the other branches but the Marine Corps does a damn fine job of teaching the basics of marksmanship. Hell we don't even go into a sling prone position until the 500 yard line. From the 200 yard line I could throw the ammo and get a decent group!

 

Of course a lot of those basics pretty much go out the window in combat but enough sticks with you to get the job done. It's hard to get into a nice prone position and focus on your sight alignment, sight picture, breath control, and follow through when you're receiving fire.

 

Really it is.

 

So yeah I like punching nice little groups on paper but in the back of my head I always translate that to minute of muj (short for mujahedeen) when you're taking fire.

 

Oh and in case people out there are a little confused, the best shots in the world are military snipers. And most of them learned how to shoot in the military. LEO's don't train to shoot the distances these guys do but I'm sure there are LEO snipers out there that could keep up (probably ex-military ).

[NY-proletariat 0]

Can't speak for the other branches but the Marine Corps does a damn fine job of teaching the basics of marksmanship. Hell we don't even go into a sling prone position until the 500 yard line. From the 200 yard line I could throw the ammo and get a decent group!

 

Of course a lot of those basics pretty much go out the window in combat but enough sticks with you to get the job done. It's hard to get into a nice prone position and focus on your sight alignment, sight picture, breath control, and follow through when you're receiving fire.

 

Really it is.

 

So yeah I like punching nice little groups on paper but in the back of my head I always translate that to minute of muj (short for mujahedeen) when you're taking fire.

 

Oh and in case people out there are a little confused, the best shots in the world are military snipers. And most of them learned how to shoot in the military. LEO's don't train to shoot the distances these guys do but I'm sure there are LEO snipers out there that could keep up (probably ex-military ).

 

 

 

You're right Gunny. But most of the military snipers who are good shots were probably taught how to shoot at home by their daddys and grandaddys way before the Corps ever had them! As far as slinging in combat....you do what you have to do when you're taking fire....but I'll sling if I have time for any shot unless its 100 ft or less. Jeff Cooper's adage of "if you can get steadier...get steadier(and lower when the rounds are cracking overhead!! Of course now a days with these short carbines(m-4's and AK's) with all the goodies mounted to them, long range shooting (over 100 yds)maybe regulated to the designated marksmen and snipers. Slinging skills are just about lost these in these days of red dot sights and 30-40 rd magazines! What a shame, because no hi-tech gadget can substitute for the basics. Especially when the batteries run out! (like when I was in college....all the young kids went into a tizzy when their calculator batteries ran out during an exam. Apparently they never learned how to do the work on paper like I did.....we had no calculators when I was in school....they hadn't been invented yet!! )

[bigcrabrob 0]

[Cryptkeeper 0]

[G O B 3,516]

Get you'r C&R liscense. Buy an M-44 Nagant carbine, and 1200 rounds of cheap silvertip Check milsurp. By 900 rounds or so you will know if you are good enough to need a better rifle!

And spend less than $500 bucks including a healthy allowance for range time!

Edited November 24, 2007 by G O B

[NY-proletariat 0]

[res45 4]

Usually people misspell SKS and leave out two crucial letters.

 

Note the letters in the brackets---> S[uc]KS

My $150 STOCK YUGO might s[uc]k but it gets the job done. Busting clay pigeons at 150 Yds. is about as easy as spitting.

Edited November 25, 2007 by res45

[NY-proletariat 0]

Usually people misspell SKS and leave out two crucial letters.

 

Note the letters in the brackets---> S[uc]KS

My $150 STOCK YUGO might s[uc]k but it gets the job done. Busting clay pigeons at 150 Yds. is about as easy as spitting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Get er done son! Keep on practicing! My 16 year old got 1.5 inch groups at 200 yds with one of those with ball ammo and Tech-Site rear sights from the bench. He still has the signed and witnessed(by several high power Master Class shooters) target hanging on his bedroom wall! We at first thought he missed when we spotted for him, but when we went to score the target we were bowled over by the results! Yugo SKS's are the best made SKS's for COMBLOC stuff.

[bigcrabrob 0]

Actually your wrong about a box or two of shells a year... and not holding up................................ incase you didnt know this...... they do test the guns they manufacture at mossberg. That goes for all American companies, and they do put them through some pretty rigorous testing. I have a bud with this weapon and we shoot it a good bit. (im not paying for the rounds... he is!) It does maintain its groups out at 300 and 500 yards.... it is repeatable. Eventually every platform and every round we see today will be phased out by the armies of the world. I assure you that once all the armies, police, guard, what have you, abandon this round, (.300 Win Mag) it will still kill you dead at 500 yards or more. Thats a big PERIOD. I could care less what our, or any other army decides is not good enough for their needs. This means when our troops are useing laser guns... this thing will still be able to tear the guts out of anything in North America. Now I can see you have alot of plaque in those cold veins of yours, and with that rich taste you have (seeing as how you have owned hundreds of millitary weapons) you will not be satisfied with anything not LABLED as less than the BEST! Carlos Hathcock proves my point and makes it louder than any words OR BRAND NAMES! Any gun with enough ass can do the job.... I dont care how thick the barrel is.... or how many tricked out options you have stuffed in your gold mine of a gun.... its either capable or it isnt. This gun with scope is less than 460.00 for the nice man who asked about price

You can pick them up online minus the scope for about 380.00. They come with Synthetic black/camo or Black Walnut. I will still be getting my useless S .308 V.21, then Ill pick this piece of junk up No hate for you NY-pro, but you dont have anything good to say about anything, unless you have owned it and believe that it is suitable. You obviously dont like the russian peoples or their engineering, but with sadness I must say that there weapons have spilled alot of our blood in the last 50 years. It seems there inferior junk did its job as intended. I do agree about Ron Paul, and I will say that our Country is starting to turn in a direction none of us want to see. The Real ID act / North American Trade Union / and Amero dollar conversion along with the gun ban bill are turning us right for that big brown river where many folks are found without a paddle! Lets keep America the land of the free and home of the brave. Tell your local politicians that your not affraid of Osama, or any other CIA trained and payed boogeymen. Tell them that our countrymen died for our rights, and that you would rather die than live in a cage! The enemys our current Administration tell us to fear hide in holes, and wipe there asses with there hands. They do not posses a Navy or Airforce. They do not have tunnels that run to our shores, and they do not posses magics to teleport them here! Our enemies are those who teach fear and take rights. To their credit.... the enemies our troops face use weapons and supplies 50 years old... and guess what... although we moved away from them...... they still kill... and they are cheap as hell to get. I believe we have the best Country in the world, and I believe the heart of America is good. I also think our troops do not recieve enough credit or thanks for what they do. I dont care if the war is wright or wrong, Our troops are doing whats asked of them and they deserve better! OK, enough of my rant. Night guys

 

Forgot to quote you NY-pro... sorry. Again, I have no hate for you - but you cant seem to get the point that for the money, these guns will do what is asked of them. Yeah, there not the BEST on the market... but they do a great job on a small budget. Thanks for your input anway, this is America and we have the right to disagree. I know you know your stuff, and I appreciate your knowledge, just not your negative outlook on all mentioned.

 

Robert,

Beaumont.

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

Usually people misspell SKS and leave out two crucial letters.

 

Note the letters in the brackets---> S[uc]KS

My $150 STOCK YUGO might s[uc]k but it gets the job done. Busting clay pigeons at 150 Yds. is about as easy as spitting.

 

Sorta makes me wanna work up some loads for my m59/66. I've got 500 empty cases just staring at me that I've been saving in case 7.62x39 got scarce. Looks like another set of dies for Christmas...

 

Also, if I remember, I'd seen some pretty pencil thin remington 700's used as sniper rifles some 40 years ago. I'll take a sako/nagant if anyone's giving their russian stuff away...

Edited November 25, 2007 by buckandaquarterquarterstaff

[loki0629 55]