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MCASgt New River

AR-15 SBR?

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I'd like to SBR one of my AR's and was wondering if anyone had one, what the process was and if there was any snags? I know I can't purchase the upper until I have the tax stamp in hand but which form do I send in and do I need to engrave my lower with my personal info? If so what needs to be on it? Thanks gents!

 

AR SBR porn would be greatly appreciated if you have some!! :ph34r:

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Go to the ATF website and download the Form 1. You need to fill it out in duplicate, get a pair of passport photos, and fingerprints done. Then get your Sheriff or Chief of Police to sign it off, and send it to the ATF with $200.

 

The lower needs your name, city and state engraved on it. Use the existing model number and S/N. Under "Additional Description" put the name, city and state of the original receiver manufacturer.

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Go to the ATF website and download the Form 1. You need to fill it out in duplicate, get a pair of passport photos, and fingerprints done. Then get your Sheriff or Chief of Police to sign it off, and send it to the ATF with $200.

 

The lower needs your name, city and state engraved on it. Use the existing model number and S/N. Under "Additional Description" put the name, city and state of the original receiver manufacturer.

 

OK, so will it always be a registered SBR after I engrave it? What if I want to sell it with a non-SBR upper? Is there anyway to get around the engraving in case I want to switch back and sell without dealing with the above legalities?

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Nope - Once you register the lower as an SBR, it will always be an SBR - no matter who you sell it to and will be subject to the $200 transfer tax. It doesn't matter if you put a 30" barrel on it, once you've gotten an approved form 1 on it, it will be an NFA item from that day forward... There is no going back at that point. (It's actually an SBR when you receive the approved form 1, not when you engrave it.)

 

Come to the dark side :devil:

Edited by macbeau

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Nope - Once you register the lower as an SBR, it will always be an SBR - no matter who you sell it to and will be subject to the $200 transfer tax. It doesn't matter if you put a 30" barrel on it, once you've gotten an approved form 1 on it, it will be an NFA item from that day forward... There is no going back at that point. (It's actually an SBR when you receive the approved form 1, not when you engrave it.)

 

Come to the dark side :devil:

 

When did the ATF change this? Unlike machingeguns which are 'once a machinegun always a machinegun'... SBRs by definition require a barrel less than 16" or an overall lenght of less than 26". If you removed the barrel (no barrel) or add a 16"+ barrel... you used to be able to send a letter to the ATF And have the SBR removed from the NFA registry. Of course... you could never re-attach a short barrel again, but this enabled the sale of the receiver without NFA paperwork.

 

Hell, this was even one of the recommended solutions FROM THE ATF regarding not registering the USASs and Streetsweepers per the 1994 classification changes. If you disposed of the barrel from the USAS so that it did not have any barrel (so that the bore was not greater than 0.5 inches in diameter), or if you disposed of both the cylinder AND barrel of the StreetSweeper... they did not have to be registered per the NFA because they did not meet the definition of an Destructive Device.

 

PLEASE let me know what CFR or letter changed this as this was never the ATFs position on SBRs or SBSs. This is the first I've ever heard that they can't be removed from the NFA registry. Thanks.

 

Finally, you don't HAVE to engrave your information on the RECEIVER of an SBR/SBS. You do HAVE to engrave it on the firearm, but legally and per ATF prior letters you can engrave it on the barrel, trunion or slide AS LONG AS IT IS NOT READILY REMOVABLE AND IT IS READILY SEEN with the firearm in it's assembled configuration. Hence, on an AR... that's why you never see manufacturer information on the barrel or upper... but on AKs it is quite common to have information engraved on trunions and sight bases. Personally, I always put my markings on my receivers... but the ATF does allow required information on other parts of a firearm. ALSO REMEMBER, if you replace said part you engraved with NFA identification marks... you are technically committing a felony because technically you can't obliterate or remove any ORIGINAL NFA marking. So in short, while you can engrave the information on something other than the receiver... consider the ramifications prior to doing it.

Edited by RDSWriter

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Finally, you don't HAVE to engrave your information on the RECEIVER of an SBR/SBS. You do HAVE to engrave it on the firearm, but legally and per ATF prior letters you can engrave it on the barrel, trunion or slide AS LONG AS IT IS NOT READILY REMOVABLE AND IT IS READILY SEEN with the firearm in it's assembled configuration. Hence, on an AR... that's why you never see manufacturer information on the barrel or upper... but on AKs it is quite common to have information engraved on trunions and sight bases. Personally, I always put my markings on my receivers... but the ATF does allow required information on other parts of a firearm. ALSO REMEMBER, if you replace said part you engraved with NFA identification marks... you are technically committing a felony because technically you can't obliterate or remove any ORIGINAL NFA marking. So in short, while you can engrave the information on something other than the receiver... consider the ramifications prior to doing it.

 

 

I was thinking of engraving the upper with my info that way; if at all possible; I could throw on a upper of 16+" and resale as a regular "NON-NFA" weapon if I had to. But, if once a NFA always a NFA then yes I'd go ahead and do the receiver and never plan to sell...just a little worried as to what states I may be stationed in still being in the Marine Corps that won't allow SBR/SBS as I plan on getting a Tromix shorty also in about a years time.

 

You stated, "ALSO REMEMBER, if you replace said part you engraved with NFA identification marks... you are technically committing a felony because technically you can't obliterate or remove any ORIGINAL NFA marking." Is this why it is recommended to do a non-removable part of the firearm? Am I correct in thinking that if I did engrave the upper I'd have to engrave every upper ever attached? Hence more cost effective to do the receiver once and be done with it right?

 

Last question/statement. I have read that I can NEVER leave the weapon out of my possession as long as I plan on keeping it. If I get stationed in a state that does not allow SBR/SBS or evil black rifles for that matter could I rent a storage unit and keep them in a safe inside said unit? Basically I'm worried of ever being stationed in Kommiefornia, HI or Japan!! :cryss:

Do I have any other option besides selling my precious NFA's? :ph34r:

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Finally, you don't HAVE to engrave your information on the RECEIVER of an SBR/SBS. You do HAVE to engrave it on the firearm, but legally and per ATF prior letters you can engrave it on the barrel, trunion or slide AS LONG AS IT IS NOT READILY REMOVABLE AND IT IS READILY SEEN with the firearm in it's assembled configuration. Hence, on an AR... that's why you never see manufacturer information on the barrel or upper... but on AKs it is quite common to have information engraved on trunions and sight bases. Personally, I always put my markings on my receivers... but the ATF does allow required information on other parts of a firearm. ALSO REMEMBER, if you replace said part you engraved with NFA identification marks... you are technically committing a felony because technically you can't obliterate or remove any ORIGINAL NFA marking. So in short, while you can engrave the information on something other than the receiver... consider the ramifications prior to doing it.

 

 

I was thinking of engraving the upper with my info that way; if at all possible; I could throw on a upper of 16+" and resale as a regular "NON-NFA" weapon if I had to. But, if once a NFA always a NFA then yes I'd go ahead and do the receiver and never plan to sell...just a little worried as to what states I may be stationed in still being in the Marine Corps that won't allow SBR/SBS as I plan on getting a Tromix shorty also in about a years time.

 

You stated, "ALSO REMEMBER, if you replace said part you engraved with NFA identification marks... you are technically committing a felony because technically you can't obliterate or remove any ORIGINAL NFA marking." Is this why it is recommended to do a non-removable part of the firearm? Am I correct in thinking that if I did engrave the upper I'd have to engrave every upper ever attached? Hence more cost effective to do the receiver once and be done with it right?

 

Last question/statement. I have read that I can NEVER leave the weapon out of my possession as long as I plan on keeping it. If I get stationed in a state that does not allow SBR/SBS or evil black rifles for that matter could I rent a storage unit and keep them in a safe inside said unit? Basically I'm worried of ever being stationed in Kommiefornia, HI or Japan!! :cryss:

Do I have any other option besides selling my precious NFA's? :ph34r:

 

I believe the weapon has to be at location listed on ATF paperwork. If you travel out of state you need a Form 5320.20 and fax or send it to the ATF for approval. This may be only for short term situations?

 

Call BATF and ask. Phone: 304 616-4500 WV

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I asked the BATF about carrying a SBR across state lines back and forth to a range and they told me to put a one year span on the Form 5320.20 and that would cover multiple trips across the state line. Not your exact situation but if it's going to be in storage somewhere it may be applicable.

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After talking with my FFL I believe you can serialize the upper and then the upper becomes the SBR and is not tied to any lower. You can do this yourself on a form 1 but it will then not be transferable

 

If you have a Class 2 manufacturer do the conversion on a form 1, then you send in a form 4, then it will be transferable.

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I don't need a Class II manufacturer to do anything, all I want to do is purchase a upper receiver in a less then 16" length and slap it on. I'd like to not engrave my lower receiver and not register it as a NFA but rather the upper receiver if at all possible.

 

I called the Charlotte, NC BATF office and had to leave a message as no one was available to answer my questions.

Edited by MCASgt New River

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I don't need a Class II manufacturer to do anything, all I want to do is purchase a upper receiver in a less then 16" length and slap it on. I'd like to not engrave my lower receiver and not register it as a NFA but rather the upper receiver if at all possible.

 

I called the Charlotte, NC BATF office and had to leave a message as no one was available to answer my questions.

 

 

If you just slap it on it will not be transferable.

 

Let the class 2 do it and you can then sell it in the future if you needed to.

 

Must not be important to ya?

Edited by skiboatsp

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For and AR series weapon, I've never seen the NFA manufacturer's information on the upper. You can post the question on a couple boards, but your best bet may be to write the ATFE Technology Branch and ask them if the upper is an acceptable location for NFA manufacturer markings (other than the the serial number) on an AR series firearm. I doubt it would be acceptable on an AR due to it's ability to be readily revoved... but I can't say 100% that they don't allow it.

 

Also, uppers aren't that much cheaper than some lowers... so if you're worried about destroying the value of parts... it won't make much difference even if the ATF allows engraving an upper.

 

With regards to removing an SBR from the registry... until someone cites the regulation or letter... I'm going to continue to believe that you can. Too many folks state definitively that they KNOW things and never bother to cite references. Generally I tend to respect established SOTs, but lately I've taken their advice (against my better senses and understanding of the laws) and they were wrong.

 

With regards to traveling with your firearm... I left one disassembled in a bank safe deposit box for a while at one point in my life. If it doesn't leave the state that it was approved to be in, and only YOU have access to it... then it's legal.

 

With regards to future transferability, it doesn't matter if you register it or a C2 registers it. if you create it on a Form 1... you can later transfer it to a Form 3 or Form 4. The one nice thing about C2s registering it is that if you use one that already manufactures AR lowers (like Anvil Arms), you dont' need to engrave YOUR information on it. This will save you a few dollars and make for a cleaner receiver that you do not need to worry about 'engraving marks'.

 

I just bought a couple of AR NFA items from Jon Kruger at Anvil Arms and I much prefer the cleaner look without my information engraved.

Edited by RDSWriter

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If I send my lower to a Class II manufacture then they engrave their business name on it and transfer back via FFL/SOT then I don't have to engrave correct? That would make it most easy to resale should I have too.

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No, just buy one from a C2 that manufactures their own AR lowers. They already have to engrave the information... regardless of whether it is NFA or not. Check out a Colt SBR... you'll see that it is the same identification marking as a non-NFA rifle. No additional NFA markings are necessary because all the marks are already on it... because they manufactured it.

 

If you're going to have it engraved, just do it yourself. I just have an engraver engrave my information on three receivers while I waited. I'm still waiting on the Form1s to get back from the ATF... so the firearms aren't even SBRs yet. BUT you can engrave prior to them being SBRs, no need to wait. If you're going to go the engraving route and you don't mind shipping your recievers, Orion does fabulous work.

Edited by RDSWriter

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Thanks, I think that answers all my questions.

 

THANK YOU EVERYONE!!

:super: :super: :super:

Edited by MCASgt New River

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With regards to future transferability, it doesn't matter if you register it or a C2 registers it. if you create it on a Form 1... you can later transfer it to a Form 3 or Form 4. The one nice thing about C2s registering it is that if you use one that already manufactures AR lowers (like Anvil Arms), you dont' need to engrave YOUR information on it. This will save you a few dollars and make for a cleaner receiver that you do not need to worry about 'engraving marks'.

 

Great!! I guess that means I can biuld several SBS saiga's to sell without a manufacturers license.

 

Save's me like $3000.00 a year ?

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With regards to future transferability, it doesn't matter if you register it or a C2 registers it. if you create it on a Form 1... you can later transfer it to a Form 3 or Form 4. The one nice thing about C2s registering it is that if you use one that already manufactures AR lowers (like Anvil Arms), you dont' need to engrave YOUR information on it. This will save you a few dollars and make for a cleaner receiver that you do not need to worry about 'engraving marks'.

 

Great!! I guess that means I can biuld several SBS saiga's to sell without a manufacturers license.

 

Save's me like $3000.00 a year ?

 

How do think many of the machineguns prior to 1986 were built. Individuals paid $200 to manufacture them on a Form 1. Later, someone else paid $200 to buy them on a Form 3 or Form 4. So in short, YES... if you're stupid enough to buy a Saiga 12, pay $200 per Saiga 12 to manufacture them into an SBS and then try to sell them for to other people to recoup your costs... go right ahead.

 

Keep in mind that all the Class 2 manufacturers DON'T pay the $200 manufacturing tax per firearm due to their SOT status AND they typically provide a higher quality product due to their manufacturing capabilities AND and can sell them cheaper than you. So you'll go f'n broke becase no one will buy them from you. Also, WHY would anyone pay for your SBS when they can just manufacture them themselves and pay their own $200. Now if you sell them for much less than you pay to make them, then you might sell them. ALSO, remember that if you Form 1 an SBS that you're limiting yourself to a sale within your own state - UNLESS the out-of-state purchaser wants to pay for TWO $200 stamps.

 

IF you manufacture enough of them you can even pay more than $3000 in Form 1s... dumbass.

 

In short, whether you pay a $200 make and register tax on a Form 1 OR pay $200 for a transfer and register tax on a Form 4 - you are paying $200 to get the SBS. A Class2 SOT holder doesn't pay this so their net expense will start out $200 less than you. The reason I Form 1 most of my stuff is to avoid the additional $100 fee that most Class 3s want to charge you to transfer an NFA firearm. If you manufacture it yourself there are no dealer fees, only the NFA taxes.

Edited by RDSWriter

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With regards to future transferability, it doesn't matter if you register it or a C2 registers it. if you create it on a Form 1... you can later transfer it to a Form 3 or Form 4. The one nice thing about C2s registering it is that if you use one that already manufactures AR lowers (like Anvil Arms), you dont' need to engrave YOUR information on it. This will save you a few dollars and make for a cleaner receiver that you do not need to worry about 'engraving marks'.

 

Great!! I guess that means I can biuld several SBS saiga's to sell without a manufacturers license.

 

Save's me like $3000.00 a year ?

 

IF you manufacture enough of them you can even pay more than $3000 in Form 1s... dumbass.

 

 

I believe you are an angry individual and many of your friends and probably your wife hates you for it.

 

I'm asking the moderator to leave my response due to the fact that you started the personal attacks that are completly uncalled for.

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After talking with my FFL I believe you can serialize the upper and then the upper becomes the SBR and is not tied to any lower. You can do this yourself on a form 1 but it will then not be transferable

 

I don't think you can make an upper transferable, its not a firearm like the lower receiver, but you can engrave it per the ATF letter I've attached. However, it would be logical to assume if you engrave the barrel, you would be in violation if you swapped it out with an unmarked barrel. With an engraved receiver, you know you can switch uppers.

 

 

With regards to removing an SBR from the registry... until someone cites the regulation or letter... I'm going to continue to believe that you can.

 

Generally I tend to respect established SOTs, but lately I've taken their advice (against my better senses and understanding of the laws) and they were wrong.

 

If it doesn't leave the state that it was approved to be in, and only YOU have access to it... then it's legal.

 

It doesn't matter if you register it or a C2 registers it. if you create it on a Form 1... you can later transfer it to a Form 3 or Form 4.

 

I concur. I would add police are also not always reliable sources of information.

 

If I send my lower to a Class II manufacture then they engrave their business name on it and transfer back via FFL/SOT then I don't have to engrave correct? That would make it most easy to resale should I have too.

 

True, but if they manufacture a short barrel (from your rifle) it goes back to you on a Form 4 through a local dealer which is extra time/$$. That is my understanding. If you register it on a Form 1 and sent it to them, they can engrave it with your info and cut it down and send it back to YOU since its technically a repair of an NFA firearm. Again my understanding. I haven't had to do either of these yet.

post-128-1196988657_thumb.jpg

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IF you manufacture enough of them you can even pay more than $3000 in Form 1s... dumbass.

 

Alot of people don't know about NFA stuff, its rarer and more complicated, that's why they ask.

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I'd like to thank everyone for your responses but it seems maybe understanding wrong or not familiar with AR15's. There is no manufacturing involved with an AR type rifle, no cutting or sawing of the barrel. The upper receiver simply un-pins from the lower receiver. Its quick, simple and takes little to no mental capacity.

 

Purchase this; with your tax stamp in hand; engrave the lower....

http://www.model1sales.com/item-detail.cfm...mage=ucom10.gif

 

....and pin it on...wa-la...SBR made.

 

BUT PLEASE, ONCE AGAIN I THANK YOU FOR YOUR THOUGHTS AND I'M ALREADY SET ON BUYING A COMPLETE SBR FROM SOMEONE ELSE at the present time AND LEAVING MY RECEIVERS ALONE as a non-nfa weapon. PLEASE TAKE NO MORE TIME ON THIS SUBJECT.

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And DON'T buy a AR "pistol" and think that you can just swap the uppers, because actually you can, but get caught, and you'll be some Bubba's bitch picking up the soap for 10 years, although the really short SBR's are fun to shoot, fire balls from hell, but not as fun as my Vector V-53 pistol with a Beta Drum, now that one is a BLAST.

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And DON'T buy a AR "pistol" and think that you can just swap the uppers, because actually you can, but get caught, and you'll be some Bubba's bitch picking up the soap for 10 years, although the really short SBR's are fun to shoot, fire balls from hell, but not as fun as my Vector V-53 pistol with a Beta Drum, now that one is a BLAST.

 

Why can't you swap the upper? Under the '94 AWB you might have had trouble. In this case you'd have a heavy pistol with a really long barrel, and front handguard, not illegal now a days.

 

EDIT: Oh, are you talkin about putting a barrel of <16in and a stock, yeah, that's still illegal.

Edited by KySoldier

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I posted this a while ago in another forum. This topic comes up a lot and I never hear the same answer twice.

 

 

 

"There is argument over who's name is to be placed on the Form 1 paperwork that needs to be filled out when you want to convert to a Short Barrel Rifle. Some say it is YOUR name, others say it's the original maker's. I firmly believe it is the later and I'm happy to explain why. This is not meant to be a one sided argument. I am open to hear why I could be wrong. There are a couple letters from the ATF floating around with conflicting information (surprise) but what is more important than their interpretation is the actual Form 1 itself, and it's included definitions because this is what you sign, and what they sign and approve.

 

With that said follow my reason here.

 

First, go to the atf website and read this form http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53201.pdf

 

This is your form 1 you fill out and submitt for your sbr. It's a little better than the one available from the titleii site because it has the definition attachment that the real copy the ATF sends you has.

 

4a is where the argument is. Some people claim you put YOUR name since you are the maker (regardless if it's a 100% receiver). I disagree because it's pretty clear if you read the whole box on the form and the 2h description, and I will quote:

 

(4)"a. Name and Location of Original Manufacturer of Firearm (Receiver)(if prototype, furnish plans and specifications)(See instruction 2h)"

 

Again this is where all this debate and sometimes argument comes from. So now lets go read instruction 2h for clarification...

 

"Serial Numbers and other Markings. If an existing firearm is being modified into an NFA firearm, enter the existing serial number of the firearm into item 4g and the name and address of the original manufacturer into item 4a." Do not Alter or Modify the existing Serial number. If the NFA firearm is being made from parts, your name and address are to be entered into 4a and a serial number you create is to be entered into item 4g."

 

This is telling you to use the maker info that was already on your 100% receiver. Read again: "If an existing firearm is being modified into an NFA firearm". This directly translates to your 100% receiver will become a SBR.

 

Keep this in mind:"Do not Alter or Modify the existing Serial number." when you next read: "If the NFA firearm is being made from parts, your name and address are to be entered into 4a and a serial number you create is to be entered into item 4g."

 

What they assume is if you are making the gun from parts, you are making the receiver as well as it counts as 1 "part" in the 922r parts count. If you make the receiver, your are the manufacturer, otherwise use the existing information. They want a paper trail of the firearm, otherwise they will think two seperate firearms are out there which happen to have the same serial number.

 

 

The other important point I want to make (and this alone is a huge can of worms) is if you put your name as the maker on the paperwork, as well as the rifle, you would not be able to sell it legally since you can't build to sell, unless your an SOT that is. The big difference here with a normal rifle build (with your own receiver) is by filling out your Form 1 with your name as the maker, you admitted that you built it yourself and if anything ever happened with that SBR you may as well skip the lube.

 

 

I hope this clears up the confusion once and for all."

 

 

I wrote this because when I was getting ready to build my Krink, I was met with too much conflicting information, from the ATF letters, to gun shops, to DIY builders. Once I had the forms in hand and read it all myself, I realized most people don't know what they are talking about.

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You MUST engrave the LOWER. That is what is considered the firearm. An upper is a gun part.

 

The thing with an AR SBR is that you plan on keeping it for life because you will only get pennies on the dollar if you sell it. Here is a great thread on the M4 forums with a very simple list of instructions.

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You MUST engrave the LOWER. That is what is considered the firearm. An upper is a gun part.

 

Normally I'd agree, except the letter said the barrel was OK too. But perhaps the rifle in question was an AK or something else with a semi permanent barrel...I don't remember :rolleyes: If it were me I'd just engrave the receiver anyway.

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