Saiga .308 as a sniper/long range rifle

[AK-fanaddict 0]

I'm looking for a .308 for long range shooting (400-500 yards). i'm thinking of going with a classic Remmington bolt action, but I much rather have a semiauto and I do love those saiga's. How do you think the .308 saiga preforms as a sniper type rifle, and it's accuracy? what scope do you recommend on a saiga .308 for 400-500 yard grouping?

[headshot 52]

A saiga would not be a good choice for those ranges. 3" @ 100yds is about the average for a .308 saiga.

If you want a semi .308 for those ranges, an AR10 or other .308 AR would be a good choice.

[AK-fanaddict 0]

A saiga would not be a good choice for those ranges. 3" @ 100yds is about the average for a .308 saiga.

If you want a semi .308 for those ranges, an AR10 or other .308 AR would be a good choice.

 

 

your right about the AR 10 the only thing hold back on those is the $$

 

I thought a saiga .308 could do a little better then 3'' at 100yd

[ck43001 12]

Get a Stoner sr-25

 

It's easily sub moa at 100 and shoots as soft as a 556 ar.

[OG12C 0]

Go with a DSA Fal if you want semi auto

or if you go bolt I recommend Sako.

[NY-proletariat 0]

A saiga would not be a good choice for those ranges. 3" @ 100yds is about the average for a .308 saiga.

If you want a semi .308 for those ranges, an AR10 or other .308 AR would be a good choice.

 

 

your right about the AR 10 the only thing hold back on those is the $$

 

 

 

$$$'S ARE WHAT IT'S GONIG TO TAKE AND A LOT OF PRACTICE AND AMMO TO GET GOOD ENOUGH TO HIT TARGETS CONSISTENTLY UNDER ALL KINDS OF CONDITIONS AT THE RANGES YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. MONEY AND EQUIPMENT STILL DOES NOT A SNIPER MAKE! IT TAKES MANY HOURS OF TRAINING ON SHOOTING ,RANGE ESTIMATION,WIND DOPING, AND MANY OTHER TOPICS ALL UNDER FIELD CONDITIONS TO JUST START TO BECOME A GOOD SHOT. THEN YOU LEARN OJT(ON THE JOB TRAINING). THEN YOU WON'T HAVE TO ASK SUCH QUESTIONS....YOU'LL ALREADY KNOW. THERE'S REALLY NO OTHER WAY AROUND SPENDING LOTS OF $$$$"s UNLESS YOU'RE IN THE MILITARY OR SOME RICH P.D. THAT WILL LET YOU SHOOT ON THE TAX PAYER'S TAB OR YOUR FATHER IS BILL GATES OR WARREN BUFFET!!

 

 

 

 

I thought a saiga .308 could do a little better then 3'' at 100yd

 

 

 

IF THIS WAS THE CASE....THEN THE MILITARY AND ALL THE PD SNIPERS OF THE WORLD WOULDN'T HAVE TO SPEND THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ON RIFLES AND EXPENSIVE MATCH AMMO TO EQUIP THEIR SNIPERS! THERE'S A REASON WHY SOMETHING IS SO CHEAP....YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR! (OR YOU CAN'T MAKE A SILK PURSE FROM A SOW'S EAR!). IF A CHEAP SNIPER RIFLE IS WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING FOR....JUST LOOK AT ANY WANT-AD OR GUN AUCTION ON THE WEB AND YOU'LL SEE HUNDREDS OF "SNIPER RIFLES" FOR SALE BY PEOPLE WHO "THOUGHT" THEY COULD BUY THEIR SKILLS CHEAP! THEN THEY FIND OUT THAT IT TAKES A LOT OF TIME AND MONEY TO BECOME PROFICIENT TO SHOOT UP TO THEIR RIFLE'S ABILITY WITH EXPENSIVE AMMO AND SCOPES. (KIND OF LIKE BUYING A FERARRI AND EXPECTING TO BECOME A RACE CAR DRIVER AND ONLY BEING ABLE TO FILL IT WITH UNLEADED REGULAR GAS ONCE A WEEK BECAUSE YOU SPENT ALL YOUR MONEY ON THE CAR!! THEN YOU HAVE TO SELL IT TO THE NEXT SAP WHO IS GOING TO TRY THE SAME THING...ONLY ALOT CHEAPER!!)

 

 

JUST BUY A SAIGA FOR WHAT IT IS.....ONE OF THE MOST RUGGED AND RELIABLE RIFLES FOR THE PRICE, THAT GIVES YOU "MINUTE OF BADGUY" ACCURACY, AND CAN BE PUT IN YOUR CAR OR TRUCK FOR EMERGENCIES AND YOU WON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT LOSING A $1000-$2000 ASSAULT RIFLE TO THIEVES OR THE GESTAPO AT SOME VEHICLE CHECK POINT LIKE WE HAVE HERE IN THE "PEOPLE'S SOCIALIST REPUBLIC OF NY"!! OR GETTING IT ALL SCRATCHED AND DINGED UP BOUNCING AROUND IN YOUR TRUCK LIKE YOU WOULD SOME EXPENSIVE "SNIPER RIFLE" OR "GETTING RARE" PRE-BAN ASSAULT RIFLE!

[dasu 1]

no. saigas can do better than 3 moa, even with surplus ammo. i can get about 2 moa with some surplus ammo - santa barbara i think. with good commercial ammo (FGM) ive turned in 1.5 inch groups. anything under your 500 yard goals is certainly in its domain.

 

my sample set is two 22 inch barrel rifles and my 16 with muzzle break (displayed in the images section.) the latter rifle doesnt shoots around 3 - 3.5 moa with surplus...i think its the muzzle break.

 

but the saiga is no sniper and wont hang with an AR. dont know what it does at longer (+600 yards.) first shots out of the mag arent bad good as opposed to my medium weight FAL which throws the first shot out of the mag about a moa right but after that will shoot about moa. i havent played with cold bore shots yet.

 

scopes are another issue mainly due to the offset mount and difficulty getting a good cheek weld. im still looking for the perfect stock. i just ordered one of BRG3's valmet style stock, and im hoping that will be it. ive shot best with iron sights.

Edited December 8, 2007 by dasu

[Cryptkeeper 0]

A saiga would not be a good choice for those ranges. 3" @ 100yds is about the average for a .308 saiga.

If you want a semi .308 for those ranges, an AR10 or other .308 AR would be a good choice.

 

you need to change your ammo bad, if your only getting 3"grps@100yrds.i get 1"@100yrd with factory ammo fed power shok 150gr SP, with my stock saiga 308. you can hit a man at 400 yrds with a saiga but it may not be between the eyes, for that an AR-10 is what you want for a semi and expect to spend at least $1-2k, but nothing beats a good bolt action for long range snipping. but unless you are going to compete or hunt with it(and all you got is long range shots) i would stay with a weapon that is good around 400yrds or less,but if you want a real sniper weapon 1000+yrds you can plan on spending 2-8k for the rifle.and $50.00+ per box for ammo and can shoot 30-50 boxes of ammo to get to know the weapon/train.i like the saiga 308 as an all around tuff weapon with alot of knock down,that you can count on to fire even if it hasnt been cleaned in 2k rnd worth of fireing. ammo is not the cheapest but a 308 is alot of bullet.hitting some1 between the eyes at 400yrds i dought a saiga could do it, but as a chest shot yes it can,shoot through brick walls, cars,body armor...ect yes it can. just remmber most conflict/hunting is done inside of 500yrds.

[bigcrabrob 0]

A saiga would not be a good choice for those ranges. 3" @ 100yds is about the average for a .308 saiga.

If you want a semi .308 for those ranges, an AR10 or other .308 AR would be a good choice.

 

you need to change your ammo bad, if your only getting 3"grps@100yrds.i get 1"@100yrd with factory ammo fed power shok 150gr SP, with my stock saiga 308. you can hit a man at 400 yrds with a saiga but it may not be between the eyes, for that an AR-10 is what you want for a semi and expect to spend at least $1-2k, but nothing beats a good bolt action for long range snipping. but unless you are going to compete or hunt with it(and all you got is long range shots) i would stay with a weapon that is good around 400yrds or less,but if you want a real sniper weapon 1000+yrds you can plan on spending 2-8k for the rifle.and $50.00+ per box for ammo and can shoot 30-50 boxes of ammo to get to know the weapon/train.i like the saiga 308 as an all around tuff weapon with alot of knock down,that you can count on to fire even if it hasnt been cleaned in 2k rnd worth of fireing. ammo is not the cheapest but a 308 is alot of bullet.hitting some1 between the eyes at 400yrds i dought a saiga could do it, but as a chest shot yes it can,shoot through brick walls, cars,body armor...ect yes it can. just remmber most conflict/hunting is done inside of 500yrds.

 

 

You said it just right! Sure, if you have LOTS of money you should go buy a 1,000y plus sniper, if not... get the S .308 as it is highly capable and as tough as anything youll find. Post a pic when you get it

Robert,

Beaumont.

[Motopilot1 37]

+1 to the saiga if you dont have cashflow but otherwise i would suggest a springfield m1a may not get what a bolt rifle does but it reaches out there better than my fal or g3 i do not have any experience w/ the saiga 308 but i do know my M1A gets the job done as for the AR10 i have owned one but its not the rifle that my M1A is i ended up getting rid of it when i got the m1a but if you really want accuracy for cheap go w/ the bolt gun remington 700 pss is not that expensive and a very nice rifle w/ an affective range of 800 meters chambered in 308

[Tokageko 8]

anyone here have a definition of: "sniper"? You have to define that before you define the rifle a "sniper" uses.

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

I dunno, I've seen some pictures on this sight boasting about 1 inch groups. But looking at the targets they are obviously at least 2 inch groups. In my experience the saiga is a 2 inch gun an a cold bbl, and up to 3 plus inches on a hot one. That's with handloads that shoot 5/8 inch groups from my bolt gun.

 

The choice is obvous if you get two to three times the group size from one gun vs another as far as sniping goes.

[G O B 3,516]

Sniper is going to have many meanings, I would say the minimum is to group at least 1 1/2 " per 100 yds, out to at least 300yd. Police in an urban area would be well served with that. Military snipers have to take 1000yd shots.

What do you NEED? If you want the cheapest true sniper rifle, easily capable of 400,500yd shots-get a Mousan Nagant. If you need to kill game or zombies out to 300yd, but mostly closer-(the real world) the Saiga rocks!

[Saigaczech 9]

I would not go with any semi-auto except maybe SIG, HK or AR15/AR10 for sniper/precision rifle work. Most of the systems are not tight enough or introduce problems due to piston movement to be very accurate. Precision rifles should be sub MOA (1/2 MOA or better if you are serious) to be even considered for the job. Othterwise you are just posing and will never do the job right. If $$ are your problem the new Remington SPS 20" tactical rifle can be had for under $600 and will produce excellent results, as will a Savage model 10FP. Otherwise plan to buy an AR-10.

[Motopilot1 37]

I would not go with any semi-auto except maybe SIG, HK or AR15/AR10 for sniper/precision rifle work. Most of the systems are not tight enough or introduce problems due to piston movement to be very accurate. Precision rifles should be sub MOA (1/2 MOA or better if you are serious) to be even considered for the job. Othterwise you are just posing and will never do the job right. If $$ are your problem the new Remington SPS 20" tactical rifle can be had for under $600 and will produce excellent results, as will a Savage model 10FP. Otherwise plan to buy an AR-10.

The AR10 is a pile of garbage and will never come close to what a m14 or m1a will. I know from experience the reason i sold mine was because i got about 300round through it and it just stoped shooting sent it back o your receiver is stretched JUNK why do you think in the military its m14 or bolt rifle o yea they have some AR platform rifles but they arent chambered in 308 not to be a dick i know it sounded like it i just really hate that everybody loves the AR10 when its not the gun its hyped up to be

[loki0629 55]

Mk11 Mod 0 chambered in 7.62x51

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR-25

 

It's out there, it's issued, and some jarhead or Seal bubba is playing with it as we speak (or type).

[Motopilot1 37]

Mk11 Mod 0 chambered in 7.62x51

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR-25

 

It's out there, it's issued, and some jarhead or Seal bubba is playing with it as we speak (or type).

ok i stand corrected it is issued i just would never buy one again i hate them i dontk now thats just my 2 cents i know some people love them but for me the largest round i would want an ar chambered in would be 223. ive gone down the 308 road and wont go down it again when it comes to the AR patform maybe i had a lemon i dont know

[Motopilot1 37]

pulled these from another forum

 

I would definetly say the m1a by far especially if you are gonna go with the national match model. they are great rifles and I have had no problems at all with mine. Our unit has 2 sr-25's and 4 m21's and the m21's have been on every operation that we have been on and the sr-25's have pretty much collected dust. we have them zeroed in case an emergency arrives and we need something to replace our m21's but so far that hasn't happened and I am very sure that we will never need them. It also helps that we have springfield armorers and reps here too that change out our barrels and do trigger work and things such as that but with the m1a family of weapon systems you won't go wrong i guarantee!

 

hmm, think I can help you out.... I own a DPMS LR308 (AR10) and Springfield match M1A. Both are outstanding rifles, you really can't go wrong with either.

 

First the obvious, very different ergonomics, handling, weight and balance. The m1a is more of a 'riflemans' rifle and has good balance for off hand shooting. The AR ergonomics are good and with the myriad of accessories the sky is the limit. They can be somewhat front heavy when fitted with a bull barrel though.

 

Ok, now for accuracy, both are quite exceptional however the DPMS LR308 edges out the M1A. Mine typically gets .5 - .75MOA where as my match m1a gets .75 - 1MOA with commercial match ammo. I'm sure handloads will shrink up those groups...

 

However there is a price for the accuracy the AR10 offers due to its tight tolerances --> reliability. Now both are very reliable platforms but my experience with the DPMS LR308 is occasionally more volatile. My m1a never fails, not once with nearly thousands of rounds cycled.... Definitely need to keep the AR10 very well maintained... Now I am very meticulous with cleaning with mine and still have had occasional reliabilty issues on par with my AR-15s (clean and oil each time taken to the range)... Note that the failure rate is very low with the ARs, but zero, zilch, nada with the m1a....

 

Ok, now for the details - stock trigger on the AR is substandard in comparison to the two stage trigger on the m1a. This can be easily reconciled with a quality match trigger on the AR10. I have an adjustable JP trigger on mine which works very well. Scope mounting on the AR is a breeze, more challenging on the m1a... Fixed that one with lots of loctite and steel mounting screws. The aftermarket definitely favors the AR with the zillions of accessories, float tubes, rails etc etc etc.... There are some very nice accessories for the m1a (custom stocks, rails etc) but they can get very pricey.... One perceived weakness with the m1a is volatility with a bedded stock and the parodox of cleaning in this regard.

 

Now for the bottom line - price. The DPMS LR308 offers outstanding 'bang for you buck' as one can be had NIB for less than $1k. The m1a will set you back some more $$ ranging from $1.2-2k.. Next on the totem pole for AR10 variants would be the Eagle and Bushmasters ranging on par with the m1a followed by Armalites hovering near $2k... (Note prices may vary depending on your location)

 

As for myself the m1a gets more range time, no need to say more...

 

My advise is to physically handle both to see which fits and handles better in your hands... Again you can't go wrong with either one...

[Saigaczech 9]

Hey Motopilot. I am not an AR addict. I think they ineffective and major jam-o-matics. I own some because of the modularity, good accuracy and because I got used to one in the USMC. My point was that the platform is better for sniper/precision work then the Saiga. The original poster pointed out he was looking for a semi-auto and did not want to spend the money for a decent M1A. I was trying to give him a choice of alternatives. I did not push the FAL as they also get costly if you want better then 2 MOA average accuracy. Personally, I will take a bolt gun over a semi-auto for precision work any time and a AK over the AR if I have a choice for quick and dirty work out to 300 meters or so. My choices for budget guns are the Remington 700 or the Savage 10FP, but they are bolt guns.

[Saigaczech 9]

I should clarify that. I own AR-15 systems, that is what I got used to in the Corps. From what I have seen I consider the modern AR10 just an overgrown AR-15. I have not looked at a DPMS LR308 and I have not had the need due to my bolt rifles. I respect your opinion of them and may look at one in the future if I feel the need for a .308 semi-auto for precision work.

[Motopilot1 37]

hey wasnt trying to be rude just came out that way sorry to be so oppinionated but that gun really got me fired up. but anyways i understand what your saying and in no way was trying to be rude although i know it came out that way but anyways as far as the rifle i couldnt agree w/ you more a bolt rifle will spank em all for the $ im currently looking into a remington 700 pss in 308 or maybe 300ultra mag unsure but anyways just wanted to appologize for the rude behavior i should clarify i dont hate the ar10 its still a firearm and as long as its a gun then its ok in my book

[Saigaczech 9]

hey wasnt trying to be rude just came out that way sorry to be so oppinionated but that gun really got me fired up. but anyways i understand what your saying and in no way was trying to be rude although i know it came out that way but anyways as far as the rifle i couldnt agree w/ you more a bolt rifle will spank em all for the $ im currently looking into a remington 700 pss in 308 or maybe 300ultra mag unsure but anyways just wanted to appologize for the rude behavior i should clarify i dont hate the ar10 its still a firearm and as long as its a gun then its ok in my book

 

 

NP, might be my fault for being a bit too sensitive about guns. heheh. Yeah the Remington 700 SPS is a nice gun, designed to compete with the FN PBR. I love the Hogue stock although I may change that out for a McMillan or HS Precision custom build one day. My 700 SPS Tactical went for ~ $500 and I got a $30 rebate from the manufacturer too. Waiting for the weather to get nicer in the spring again to take it to the range for practice making little groups, the dirt roads get very nasty here in the PNW this time of year.

[Motopilot1 37]

i havent looked into it much but do you know if you can get the 700 sps vs in a left handed version probably not but figured i would ask

[Saigaczech 9]

i havent looked into it much but do you know if you can get the 700 sps vs in a left handed version probably not but figured i would ask

 

 

Haven't a clue. Sorry. I would contact Remington and ask. I know they make left handed 700 actions but not sure if for that rifle. Check their web site and ask if no info is found. Might cost more though.

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

The AR is a decent platform in use almost everywhere. The AK is better for many many things, but for accuracy (including sniping accuracy) the AK or any of its variants can't come close. I personally saw an AR shoot six separate five shot pinkie fingernail sized groups from 100 yards last weekend. My saiga won't do that, my bolt gun can't even hang there unless I buy primo components. I don't think that's necessary accuracy given the 223's range, but you absolutely can drive tacks with them.

 

The 308 AR is a scaled up version that doesn't do it for me, but retains decent accuracy. It's a little too top and muzzle heavy in the heavy barrel versions, and it just doesn't shoot from a standing position in the way I like.

 

I like my saiga for what it is, but for an all out accuracy contest the AR and the bolt gun are in about equal territory. The saiga 308 is the best brush gun there is in my opinion (a bigger bullet version would be the cat's ass). Taking it out past 300 yards exposes its limitations. Anyone in an eastern woods setting will be just fine with 300 yard accuracy. Throw in the 20 round capacity and solid reliability and it's a sure winner 90% of the time on a beer budget.

[ck43001 12]

I would not go with any semi-auto except maybe SIG, HK or AR15/AR10 for sniper/precision rifle work. Most of the systems are not tight enough or introduce problems due to piston movement to be very accurate. Precision rifles should be sub MOA (1/2 MOA or better if you are serious) to be even considered for the job. Othterwise you are just posing and will never do the job right. If $$ are your problem the new Remington SPS 20" tactical rifle can be had for under $600 and will produce excellent results, as will a Savage model 10FP. Otherwise plan to buy an AR-10.

The AR10 is a pile of garbage and will never come close to what a m14 or m1a will. I know from experience the reason i sold mine was because i got about 300round through it and it just stoped shooting sent it back o your receiver is stretched JUNK why do you think in the military its m14 or bolt rifle o yea they have some AR platform rifles but they arent chambered in 308 not to be a dick i know it sounded like it i just really hate that everybody loves the AR10 when its not the gun its hyped up to be

 

The military has been switching to the stoner sr-25 platform for their snipers, and it's chambered in the .308. IMO, it's probably the only gas operated ar-based rifle that comes close to or betters bolt actions; since not all bolt action rifles are equally accurate. Back in the mid-90s, Jammer sold sr-25s with factory test targets of .16.

 

Knight's SR-25 page

 

Check it out, it's far from a "pile of garbage." Don't let your "hate" for the ar10 fanboys jade your view of it.

 

Oh, and don't worry about buying one because Knight's really doesn't sell to the public anymore, they're too busy with military contracts. You can still find them, but you can probably expect to pay upward of 5k for one.

Edited December 12, 2007 by ck43001

[Tokageko 8]

Anyone read American Rifleman?

 

August 2007 Issue.

 

Page 49, first paragraph, quote from Maj. Edward J. Land:

 

"Snipers of today talk about minute of angle. Carlos Hathcock's rifle barrel looked like it had been sandblasted. On the inspection sheet, you'd say, 'Slight pits throughout.' His rifle would hold about two minutes of angle. That's 20 inches at 1,000 yards. and that's what he had to work with."

------

 

Take a look at the most famous snipers from around the world, throuhout history. You can still find interviews with German snipers from all fronts of WW2. The Russians' records were a little "mythologized," but still get the point across. Snipers provide accurate fire, directed at important targets, regardless of distance. Read the rest of that article in American Rifleman Magazine. You'll see the truly despicable pieces of sh!t that those first Marine Corps snipers had to work with. They made them work though. Accurate rifles are good, but even in the sand-box it doesn't sound like anyone using something less than a 50 BMG even tries a shot at 1,000 yards. They definitely have the room for it over there. 600 yards seems to be about the maximum range. Less than 300 has historically been much more typical.

 

What most people think of when they hear: "sniper," is a romanticized version of one or two incredible shots that have become blurred into the obscurity of becoming a general scenario. My advice: do what you want with your rifle and don't let any prick (even me) tell you what you do or don't have with you on the range, or in the field.

 

Oh. One more thing.

 

BuckandaQuarter: Try adjusting the loads to find something the saiga likes, rather than feeding it the same things as your bolt gun. I garauntee the twist rate is different at the least. On that note, the best Surplus I ever used was Australian. That 146 grain bullet was great. I could pop golf balls at 100 yards with that stuff and a POSP scope. Beautiful... Just beautiful.

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

Normal fodder is about 3 inch groups with either gun for me. I've messed around with bullet weights and charges, and gotten some progress. My 21 incher does 1-2in groups with 175 SMK's, and the 16 inch gun does about 2 inches with 150 grain soft points. I could probably squeeze out some more accuracy from it, but I do find that the hot vs cold bbl impact points are different so there's only a limited amount to be gained from working on it much more. It's plenty accurate for shots on game at distances up to 300 yards. Beyond that I let them walk because even if the gun was spot on, I know I'm not.

 

I weigh many of my rifle charges on a beam scale (a lab scale I got at an auction long ago), so I tend to put that effort into the gun that gives the most satisfactory results. However, if I'm just up for havin fun, a 3 inch group doesn't bother me in the least. That's what I get from my drop powder measured loads with surplus bullets, and the grin per cost index is quite agreeable.

[Motopilot1 37]

Anyone read American Rifleman?

 

August 2007 Issue.

 

Page 49, first paragraph, quote from Maj. Edward J. Land:

 

"Snipers of today talk about minute of angle. Carlos Hathcock's rifle barrel looked like it had been sandblasted. On the inspection sheet, you'd say, 'Slight pits throughout.' His rifle would hold about two minutes of angle. That's 20 inches at 1,000 yards. and that's what he had to work with."

------

 

Take a look at the most famous snipers from around the world, throuhout history. You can still find interviews with German snipers from all fronts of WW2. The Russians' records were a little "mythologized," but still get the point across. Snipers provide accurate fire, directed at important targets, regardless of distance. Read the rest of that article in American Rifleman Magazine. You'll see the truly despicable pieces of sh!t that those first Marine Corps snipers had to work with. They made them work though. Accurate rifles are good, but even in the sand-box it doesn't sound like anyone using something less than a 50 BMG even tries a shot at 1,000 yards. They definitely have the room for it over there. 600 yards seems to be about the maximum range. Less than 300 has historically been much more typical.

 

What most people think of when they hear: "sniper," is a romanticized version of one or two incredible shots that have become blurred into the obscurity of becoming a general scenario. My advice: do what you want with your rifle and don't let any prick (even me) tell you what you do or don't have with you on the range, or in the field.

 

Oh. One more thing.

 

BuckandaQuarter: Try adjusting the loads to find something the saiga likes, rather than feeding it the same things as your bolt gun. I garauntee the twist rate is different at the least. On that note, the best Surplus I ever used was Australian. That 146 grain bullet was great. I could pop golf balls at 100 yards with that stuff and a POSP scope. Beautiful... Just beautiful.

 

 

+1 looking at a rifle as a sniper rifle is all relative its more your abilities i would say if you want to hit badguy sized targets your fine w/ the saiga 308 you dont have to be able to hit 1000 yards out a sniper rifle can be anything even a 22. its all in how you go about using it. get closer if your out of range isnt that what a "sniper" is suposed to do get close undetected

[Saigaczech 9]

Actually most snipers never even shoot, they just observe and report. Depends on where, when and how. Military sniping is a different field then law enforcement sniping. Different ROE, different ranges and different precision requirements. All have to be good shots and having good equipment helps. I once outshot a sheriff SRT member who had a scoped AR with my basic iron sighted A2, sometimes even the $1500+ optics won't help if the man is not up to it.