Saiga .308 as a sniper/long range rifle

[jakemccoy 0]

Azial,

 

The fact that you come across as young and unwilling to learn says a lot about your intellect. Informed, intelligent people welcome new information, even if they ultimately reject it. I see your mind is only open to what your Professors showed you - good luck with that.

 

-Jake

 

P.S. The 10 hours of video would be a crash course start for you, but that's a mute point since, according to you, you're above it.

Edited January 11, 2008 by jakemccoy

[fossten 1]

this thread is everywhere just a few points i would like to touch on im kind of confused it sounds almost like some of you were talking about rebellion against our own country i was thinking more along the lines of red dawn another country invades natural desaster etc but the thought that our own military will turn on us and we have to rebell makes you sound stupid do you honestly think out military guys are going to attack their own country put their neighbors in internment camps come on. i also heard private military contractors becoming a problem i guess its a good thing that blackwater is the largest PMC and they are based out of the US built from mostly ex military so again i really dont see a threat. also as for the country falling apart this country has its share of problems but as you saw when 9-11 came the country comes together rather quickly so if there was a major event i really dont think things would deteriorate to the level of putting citizens in internment camps if the us decided to turn into NAZI germany well then god help us all. but i dont see that happening

You're obviously unfamiliar with the Bonus Army, where our own Army commanded by MacArthur and Patton, attacked and killed many veterans who were peacefully marching on Washington in search of their promised bonuses because they were starving during the Great Depression.

 

You're also unfamiliar with the Battle of Athens in Tennessee.

 

Ever heard of Ruby Ridge? How about Waco, Texas? Ken Ballew?

 

During Hurricane Katrina's aftermath, armed government officials went door to door confiscating guns and arresting people. An elderly grandmother was wrestled to her own kitchen floor. This was caught on videotape. A lawyer who was filing lawsuits against the city for this practice was kidnapped from his own driveway by police, taken downtown, and beaten by police. It took him months to recover.

 

All of this information is documented.

 

So to answer your assertion, it's already happened in this country. As far as internment camps, that happened back in WWII, done by Roosevelt, one of the most popular Presidents in US History. And internment camps are already being prepared.

 

If you think we live in a free country, try owning a Saiga in Kalifornia, New York, or Chicago sometime and see where we're headed.

[Capt. Ferguson 0]

Did someone say training? I have almost 1,000 hours of some of the best weapons and defensive skills training that money can buy....and I paid for it out of my own pocket not on Unca Sugars dime! I've trained with Louis Awerbuck, John Farnham, Col. Jeff Cooper, Clint Smith, Gabe Suarez, Jack Furr, Tiger McKee and Pat Rogers just to name a few of the more notables. You might look up a place called Rifles Only here in Texas if you want to learn a little more about sniping....I have been lucky enough to train with Jason a couple of times now.

 

Oh, and as far as putting my money where my mouth is? I was the Zone Chairman for many years of the Friends of NRA in one of the most lucrative fundraising regions in the country. During my tenure we raised well over $1 million for the NRA. Take a look at the Lubbock, Texas Friends of NRA Banquet...You know, the one WAYNE LAPIERRRE FLEW INTO TWO YEARS AGO TO PERSONALLY ADDRESS THE LARGEST BANQUET CROWD IN NRA HISTORY. Then talk to me about how much I do to support freedom in this country. While you're at it ask the Boy Scouts at Camp Don Harrington, Amarillo Texas why they still have a shooting range, something about a $50,000 grant......This is like swatting flies, keep the ignorance coming!

 

Japanese internment camps? You mean interning AMERICANS WITHOUT ANY FRIGGEN PROOF THEY DID ANYTHING WRONG? Never heard of it, couldn't happen in this the land of the FREE and HOME OF THE BRAVE. Surely there would have been riots in the streets by all of the American Patriots if that kind of CLEARLY unlawful government activity had occurred. Huh, never heard about THOSE either! Why is Congress trying to grant amnesty from suit right now to a bunch of big telecom companies for their role in allowing US government agents to BREAK THE DAMN LAW and spy on Americans? Would they need amnesty if they hadn't BROKEN THE LAW? NO, they would not! They will not be held accountable for it. Why? Because just like the Fed. that shot Randy Weavers' wife there are two sets of laws....one for the government and one for the "citizens". Oh, and I don't want to hear all the garbage about how, "Well, we're at war"..... Here's what Ben Franklin had to say about that-"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." I suppose Old Ben was a wild eyed anarchist too? Glad to be in that company!

 

Tell me this, I've only asked the question twice now, can you HONESTLY say that this country as it is today, was what the Founding Fathers intended when they set up the original Constitution? Just because it's all you've ever known in your short life...doesn't mean that's what was INTENDED! Here's a little hint...would the Democratic Party even EXIST if women and minorities were not allowed to vote? Start there smart guy.

 

I love the fallacy of the argument that "this is the most free country in the world".....maybe true...but could it be something more? Wasn't it intended to be something more? Yes, we are more free than the citizens of most Third World crapholes....Whoopee....That's like being the 2lb catfish in the one acre pond filled with minnows. We were intended to be the Orca of the Ocean of Freedom! In England-where everyone's photo is taken every time they are not taking a shower.... they have banned knives for Gods' sake and this next year they are mandating the destruction of already deactivated firearms....we are on the same course, it will take longer but have no doubt of the end result.

 

You want to argue about political means....fine. Please explain why the President of the United States and the Congress of the United States, after a HUGE outcry by actual citizens of this country, refuses to punish and stop illegal immigration into this country? It is ILLEGAL, and the President and Congress have sworn a Holy oath to uphold the law of the land....and yet, nothing is done. Why? Because the Democrats want the votes and the people with money in the Republican party- agro business, construction, hospitality and service industries want those people here to increase their bottom line by driving down wages....and what they want and PAY FOR, they get, little people be damned.....What the little people can do is pay for the illegals health care and to educate their children...that's what they can do!

 

How many building permits you think George Washington ever filled out? Do you think the federal government regulated the amount of water his crapper could use to flush itself? How many forms of ID did he need to show to board a ship and sail across the world? How many times was Martha Washington felt up by government agents as she got on the ship? Any idea who Joe Foss is? He was a WWII hero, USMC fighter ace, won a Congressional Medal Of Honor, was a General! Was the governor of South Dakota for many years. Shortly after 9-11 some TSA asshat tried to take his CMH from him as the 80 year old man was boarding a plane -cause it was sharp.....again, tell me with a straight face how "FREE" we are!

 

Tell me, when exactly are the law abiding people of New Orleans- like the old lady thrown to the floor of her own HOME going to get their guns back which were confiscated by government THUGS? Bu, bu,bu the Second Amendment, the political process blah, blah, blah....the government does what the hell it wants to. Have any of those responsible for that outrage lost their jobs?Tell me about the political process when the first one of them is indicted.....I'll be waiting! Here's a little video about the whole thing put out by those gun crazy terrorists at the NRA for us to watch while we wait....

 

Edited January 11, 2008 by Capt. Ferguson

[SaigaNoobie 66]

I don't think anyone on this board is trying to insight rebellion or resort to treason like you're reading Azrial.

 

THE UNITED STATES is only a bunch of states united by THE CONSTITUTION. Anything that defies the laws and RIGHTS set forth by the constitution IS TREASON against our country.

 

You think of our country as a government.

 

I think of our country as The Constitution.

 

Standing up against a government is not treason, defying the constitution IS.

[paprotective 362]

Azrial. Whitefeather. Is that like a Marine 'White-Flag' program?? Explain what that means if you would please.

[RedFalconBill 0]

Azrial. Whitefeather. Is that like a Marine 'White-Flag' program?? Explain what that means if you would please.

 

I think it means this:

 

NATIONAL ORDER OF "THE WHITE FEATHER"

[NY-proletariat 0]

double post

Edited January 12, 2008 by NY-proletariat

[NY-proletariat 0]

Now why on Earth would someone who knows the difference between Murder and treason want to take a "SNIPER" course if all he wants to do is take the political route? Gee.....Sniping is the art of murder by gov't decree. I guess as long Azrial has a gov't okay, he can shoot his fellow human beings (or should I say terrorists if it makes him feel better). Well, If you think I will lick the hand that beats me or lick the boots that kick me, then may the chains of your captors weigh heavily upon you! I'm glad that some here have a grasp of past and present history.

 

Azrial: If someone can't say what they want on this or any other forum without our phones being tapped, our financial transactions monitored, our faces being filmed, our kids being micro-chipped in school(read the news),our money being stolen....er...excuse me inflated, taxes being taken by the point of a gun(try not paying them and see), our lives regulated by the gov't do gooders, then we are already gone as a nation. There is no hope by the political process....just whether or not we go to prison camp A or B....er....excuse me....re-education and relocation center just like the American citizens did in both WWI and WWII. I think it was a Roman general who said "we have met the enemy and it is US". Rome and every empire on this planet always fell from within.....we are falling rapidly.

[Azrial 1,091]

Edited January 12, 2008 by Azrial

[paprotective 362]

Azrial. They are going to 'beat you up on that last post' IMHO.

 

Your obviously on the legal side of the coin somewhere so to speak (like I) but you did not offer that up at all and your training either.

 

You 'almost' were "baiting/irking" the conversation with just enough to get the group going. Who is the one lurking the internet apparently bored. um. you.

 

Again. this is my 2 cents on the posts and how far OFF this got from the Saiga for long-range question.

[Azrial 1,091]

Azrial. They are going to 'beat you up on that last post' IMHO.

 

Your obviously on the legal side of the coin somewhere so to speak (like I) but you did not offer that up at all and your training either.

 

You 'almost' were "baiting/irking" the conversation with just enough to get the group going. Who is the one lurking the internet apparently bored. um. you.

 

Again. this is my 2 cents on the posts and how far OFF this got from the Saiga for long-range question.

 

Two Cents? You may overestimate your own value in this debate. If your reading skills are anywhere near on par with your writing ability I would suggest that you get someone to help you with comprehending my post before you criticize.

[Azrial 1,091]

.......So bone up on your sniping skills boys....because you might be using them sometime in the near future.....no matter who the president is. (unless it's Ron Paul, then we'll be using them to fight off all of the people who got laid off from their useless gov't jobs or had their welfare or foreign aid checks canceled who now want to steal directly from us rather than wait for the gov't to do it for them!)

 

Argue and debate till you are blue in the face, but when you make the statement that unless my candidate wins I will be shooting people in the streets, that is murder and treason.

[paprotective 362]

Two Cents? You may overestimate your own value in this debate. If your reading skills are anywhere near on par with your writing ability I would suggest that you get someone to help you with comprehending my post before you criticize.

 

As I said 'bout irking. Hold-on there buckaroo. You got I'm guessing here 6 hours sleep before getting up.

 

Anyway after 72 hours 'up-time' and just 7 hours sleep (total) I'm back up. I jump on my computer and ponder ways to aggravate people on these forums 'cause I ain't got nothin better to do. Just imagine me on the SNIPING war path for 3 days how many 'badguys' I could take out. WOW

 

Wow about 2 1/2 hours ago whilst snoozing I heard banging on my front door. Guess what I did guys?? I slept. Heavens forbid I have to 'dispatch' an intruder for bustin' in my door with my Sig that sleeps with me. Cold just like a woman could be. (no offense ladies)

 

As my CC in bootcamp said I was a BurgerKing. Did things my way. Don't want to let down PO1 Rape. (yes his real name).

Edited January 12, 2008 by YouWontHearItComing

[jakemccoy 0]

Edited January 12, 2008 by jakemccoy

[G O B 3,516]

I'm gonna abandon looking in this thread. There are some wacko's here that don't know American history very well. Bush is an armature among Presidential Constitution violators. Old Hickory defied the supreme court "I have and army, the Supreme Court does not".

The ballot box is where we make the difference. But just as true as it was 200 years ago- it is the fact that the Citizens are armed that makes the ballot box available.

 

It is my humble opinion that much of the rhetoric that is in this thread is at least subversive, and is close to treason.

[Jack A Sol 2]

BACK ON TOPIC...

 

I have done an extensive amount of longer range shooting with the 308 Saiga. I will say that it is very capable out to 500 yards with ball ammo. I make consistent hits at 500 from a prone slung position with no bipod. Targets we use are camoflaged kneeling man sized (20x42").

 

from my expereince I would say that it makes a fine battle rifle when all you want to do is hit. It's certainly not a sniper rifle in the traditional american sense tho. Match ammo will tighten up your groups about 100% (half the size).

 

The thing that most people dont realize is that even if you only hit a man in the arm or foot, you still put them in defensive mode and stop them from actively sending rounds downrange. a fast hit is better than a deadly accurate miss. In this role the saiga is a fine weapon and should be viewed as the equal of the m14, fal and ar-10 rack grade weapons with the notable exception that it is more reliable than any of those.

 

my opinion is that the Saiga is more accurate than most shooters. the weak spot in this weapon system is you

 

check here for some real gun work outs and marksmanship expereince

http://wyomingrifleman.proboards58.com/index.cgi

Edited January 13, 2008 by Jack A Sol

[SOPMOD 254]

BACK ON TOPIC...

 

I have done an extensive amount of longer range shooting with the 308 Saiga. I will say that it is very capable out to 500 yards with ball ammo. I make consistent hits at 500 from a prone slung position with no bipod. Targets we use are camoflaged kneeling man sized (20x42").

 

from my expereince I would say that it makes a fine battle rifle when all you want to do is hit. It's certainly not a sniper rifle in the traditional american sense tho. Match ammo will tighten up your groups about 100% (half the size).

 

The thing that most people dont realize is that even if you only hit a man in the arm or foot, you still put them in defensive mode and stop them from actively sending rounds downrange. a fast hit is better than a deadly accurate miss. In this role the saiga is a fine weapon and should be viewed as the equal of the m14, fal and ar-10 rack grade weapons with the notable exception that it is more reliable than any of those.

 

my opinion is that the Saiga is more accurate than most shooters. the weak spot in this weapon system is you

 

check here for some real gun work outs and marksmanship expereince

http://wyomingrifleman.proboards58.com/index.cgi

 

 

+10000

 

"my opinion is that the Saiga is more accurate than most shooters. the weak spot in this weapon system is you "

[Conklin 0]

The saiga is a fine rifle. Reliable, fairly accurate up to around 5-600 yards, and just fun to plink with if you can afford the ammunition. It is NOT a sniper rifle. It is NOT a long range rifle. it is an improved kalashnikov firing a beefier round.

 

Reading some of these posts, i am getting the feeling alot of you are more interested in pimping out a rifle for a purpose that it will probably never see and not be as effective as some of its counterparts. If i was looking to a battle rifle for accuracy and longer ranges, the m1a would be my first choice, bar none. Reliability is close to par with that of the ak, and accuracy is way up.... especially with the higher end models.

 

If i needed a semi auto rifle for both closer and longer ranges that could effectively stop a man/critter with one shot, it would be the m1a...however, My saiga is more then up to the task. 500 yards is alot longer then most people realize. For the 3-400$, a saiga .308 cant be beat...it hits hard, and its accurate enough that its probably the first rifle i would take outta the locker. Just keep ammo in it!

[SOPMOD 254]

The saiga is a fine rifle. Reliable, fairly accurate up to around 5-600 yards, and just fun to plink with if you can afford the ammunition. It is NOT a sniper rifle. It is NOT a long range rifle. it is an improved kalashnikov firing a beefier round.

 

Reading some of these posts, i am getting the feeling alot of you are more interested in pimping out a rifle for a purpose that it will probably never see and not be as effective as some of its counterparts. If i was looking to a battle rifle for accuracy and longer ranges, the m1a would be my first choice, bar none. Reliability is close to par with that of the ak, and accuracy is way up.... especially with the higher end models.

 

If i needed a semi auto rifle for both closer and longer ranges that could effectively stop a man/critter with one shot, it would be the m1a...however, My saiga is more then up to the task. 500 yards is alot longer then most people realize. For the 3-400$, a saiga .308 cant be beat...it hits hard, and its accurate enough that its probably the first rifle i would take outta the locker. Just keep ammo in it!

 

 

20 years ago I would have agreed with you but the only M1A I have ever owned that would dramatically outshoot the Saiga had 4lbs of barrel and was pretty finicky by comparison and my plain vanilla 1988 vintage rack grade M1A didn't shoot any better than a Saiga which was fine then because Saigas didn't exist yet and it only cost $450 with the walnut stock a 4 magazines but now that they are $1200+ and almost totally devoid of forged USGI parts I gotta say,no way!Heck,I don't even think Springfield Armory offers anything new off the shelf that could really be comparable in the field,do you?

 

I wonder who all of these guys are planning to "snipe"?A sniper camps out for extended and uncomfortable periods of time often only moving 100 meters per day to avoid detection to take the perfect aimed shot at a specific person or classification of persons thereby murdering them.

 

I think most of these guys are really thinking of a "Sharpshooter's Rifle" or in the modern vernacular a "Designated Marksman's Rifle" where they can stand off during an engagement and selectively neutralize threats and in real life that is usually happening from 300-800 yards.

 

Must be a lot of Zombies crawling around their neckodawoods if that's the case but the only things a Saiga lacks to do that kind of job superbly is a good trigger,a good crown and a good shooter

Edited January 13, 2008 by SOPMOD

[Conklin 0]

I have heard the m1a has gone down in quality some. aleast the civvy. All the DM boys that got their hands on m1a's sung their praises as if they were the holy grail...but hey, 7.62nato in a reliable rifle compared to .223 in a jamming peice of shit when your life is on the line makes ya think!

 

Outside of that...i agree with ya, the saiga would make for a good DMR. With a fairly skilled rifleman im confident the saiga is effective up to 500 yards give or take some. A sniper rifle it is not... in the sniper element you want to be as far away as possible. In the element where you have a few buddies to keep you covered while you engage hostiles is where the saiga could shine.

[paprotective 362]

I had put a post up here a few weeks prior to this one asking the same 500-yard question and got no real responses about reaching out distances. I figure I'd buy a crate of the M852 or M118LR or Hornandy match and be good to go.

 

The Saiga 22" is what I am waiting to come in. I'm going to keep it pretty stock plus a new FCG to fix the trigger smoothness and slap and so I can run 20-25+ USA mags. I may also get a simple 'skeleton stock, possibly the non-folding variety'. I'm putting on a nice economical 6-24 x 40 scope with Ill. recticle which should be fine for the ranges/distances I want to achieve.

 

I plan on using mine for my job also so to 'pimp it out' to scare soccer moms thinking its an A-Rifle (which it isn't) isn't very bright. I just want to 'KISS' it.

[NY-proletariat 0]

I'd like to see some of the targets shot at 500 yds by the people on this post. Post them for all of us to see. List the ammo and conditions and whether or not you used a sling(tight) or a bipod. This way we can see your results for ourselves, rather than go and on here about things that have no importance this week! (maybe it will next week when this gov't takes away more of our rights! LOL!!)

 

 

 

 

 

Azrial: Take Jake's advice and chill out. It's obvious you don't agree with most of the things said here on this post and get too emotional when they're presented to you, going so far as to insult people's character and life skills when you can't attack the facts! Jake is right, someday your emotionalism will get you in front of a judge and jury and you should take his advice or look forward to being a guest at your state's re-education facility in its honeymoon suite with you as the bride and your cellmate Tyrone as your bridegroom! LOL!!! I hope he likes to cuddle with nice educated boys instead of what he's really going to do! LOL

Edited January 13, 2008 by NY-proletariat

[jakemccoy 0]

I view discussing the sniping capabilities of the Saiga 308 as simply trying to figure out the limits of the Saiga 308. There's nothing wrong with that.

Edited January 13, 2008 by jakemccoy

[Jack A Sol 2]

I'd like to see some of the targets shot at 500 yds by the people on this post. Post them for all of us to see. List the ammo and conditions and whether or not you used a sling(tight) or a bipod. This way we can see your results for ourselves, rather than go and on here about things that have no importance this week! (maybe it will next week when this gov't takes away more of our rights! LOL!!)

 

I do most of my long range stuff in Wyoming during "matches" (more like long range training sessions but whatever) as such I dont get to keep my targets as they are pasted up and used in the next rotation. To be quite frank, most people will never need to shoot at 500 yards. Especially out east.

I will tell you (whether you believe it or not!!) that we shoot camoflaged 20"x42" targets of a kneeling man. we count hits only and the closer to the center the higher the points (3,4,5) the 5 zone is 10x12". It's not hard to hit at this range with some simple markmanship training and principles. Once you've done it, it dont seem so hard after all. I have used both bipods and slings. bipod is more stable but costs you in the weight dept (unless you use the 7oz grip pod!!) The saiga is capable at this range when the shooter does his part. Just because you cant envision it or you think that 500 is a REALLLLY long ways, dont mean that other folks view it the same. heck just last weekend i was wacking the 500yard 16x32" gong 80-85% with a stock iron sighted folding stocked romainian AK with wolf ammo and no bipod or sling.

 

when you expand your knowledge the possibilities become endless!!

 

Take you Saiga to an Appleseed and try some long range stuff there. you'll be suprised how easy it really is!!

 

Jake,

The saiga is not a sniper, but it does make a fine "rifleman" or Geurilla sniper rifle. which is much more appropriate application for most folks.

Edited January 14, 2008 by Jack A Sol

[NY-proletariat 0]

Be careful Jack, Some here think that the use of the word Guerrilla or sniper constitutes treason! LOL! Glad to see you're using rifle to its fullest. Maybe if you had a camera on your cellphone, you could take a few pics of your target results for all of us murders and treasonists to see.LOL! Are you using a scope to see your human-like targets or are you using iron sights so seeing your target won't be such an emotional undertaking! LOL! Hope to see you at an Appleseed shoot someday Jack! Keep on practicing your "sniping skills" although why we'll ever need them as our fearless leaders will never ,ever hurt or harm us in any way!(At least that's what Azrial thinks!) SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEE they won't! LOL!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Note: I'm still wondering why Azrial takes "sniper training" if the political process is the way to go? Maybe to shoot at us treasonists and murders?

Edited January 14, 2008 by NY-proletariat

[SaigaNoobie 66]

If Azrial believes that the Citizens of the United States will never have to fight against a corrupt government, fine. He may think you're nuts for even thinking about being a "Guerrilla Sniper". That's fine too. Others here think that they very well might have to fight the govt. one day, that's fine. You may think Azrial is nuts for not preparing and being ready to become a "Guerrilla Sniper." Also fine. You guys have two points of view and both of you think the other is a bit nuts for thinking the way they do. (Not crazy "nuts" but maybe silly-"nuts".)

 

I'm sure we're all in agreement that we want justice to be served through the democratic process first and foremost, and that no one wishes for any kind of militia type action in the future. If you're HOPING for a situation where you can become a "Guerrilla Sniper" than maybe you are a bit crazy.... Doesn't mean you can't prepare for it and hope it never happens though.

 

In the cold war, no one was "NUTZ" for preparing for a nuclear disaster with bomb shelters and canned food... Now that the cold war's over, if you have canned food and a bomb shelter some may consider you crazy.

 

Sometimes it's not the actions or preparations we make that classify us as crazy, but the times in which we do it. If there is a coup d'etat, the prepared won't look so crazy... but for now, the people who are preparing to fight an unknown enemy do look a little silly to most of us. Whether they're right or wrong is not up to me.

[Jack A Sol 2]

Are you using a scope to see your human-like targets or are you using iron sights so seeing your target won't be such an emotional undertaking! LOL!

 

Scope of course. Target identification is the hardest part of fighting a long range fight, best to be able to look 'em in the eyeball before you splatter any tyrannical, freedom stealing brains on the wall (after voting against them of course ).

Edited January 15, 2008 by Jack A Sol

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Hey NY Trolliat! Just keep on showing everyone what a fucking useless troll you really are. It's entertaining to those who don't take your bait.

What an idiot....

[Capt. Ferguson 0]

Edited January 15, 2008 by Capt. Ferguson

[NY-proletariat 0]

Hey NY Trolliat! Just keep on showing everyone what a fucking useless troll you really are. It's entertaining to those who don't take your bait.

What an idiot....

 

 

 

 

You took the bait by showing us all how vulgar and uneducated you really are! Yes I am an idiot.....but then it takes one to know one...doesn't it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Capt: Good observation on Azrial. I was thinking the very same thing. 1000 hrs would leave the man(boy) very little time for work or sleep! Either he's Warren Buffets long lost son or is the Mall Ninja you say he is! He's just like your 8 year old only your 8 year old has an excuse....he's only 8 yrs. old! What's Azrial's excuse besides ignorance and pride? It doesn't matter.....someday the lad will see that all his beliefs are hollow and that his idols have clay feet! I wonder if he'll write back to you and apologize like a real man or sit and be even angrier and do something stupid when it occurs?