Saiga .308 as a sniper/long range rifle

[Saigaczech 9]

Azrial is right. If this country was in fact a true police state anyone who even viewed this thread would have been visited and had a black bag pulled over their head.

 

I think he and I are in agreement in that if you guys think things are bad here, then you need to really go somewhere where things are really bad. Believe it or not, there are places in the world where the anarchy you wish to happen here is already in place. Spend some time in those places, come back and see if you still want it to happen here. Internet visits or research doesn't count.

 

 

I grew up where it was bad, on the other side of the "Iron Curtain", and believe you me, this country is headed that way real fast unless something is done about the jagoffs in DC. I don't just mean the democrats, I mean both parties, democrat AND republican. They are all one and the same as far as government for the people by the people is concerned. How are a bunch of multimillionaire primadonnas goign to ever represent the common man? They have no frame of reference. The reason they keep passing new laws designed to eavesdrop on the citizenry of this country and to curtail their rights is so they can stay in power and vote themselves more riches and privileges. I see no difference between what is forming up in DC under either party and what was in the Kremlin a couple of decades ago. The question is what can be done about it? This is the reason the 2nd amendment was created, I just fear most Americans do not understand that or are too lazy or cowardly to take their government back from the privileged and the corporate. Real patriots have a problem with the "Patriot Act", sounds like setting up a KGB-USA to me.

[Saigaczech 9]

this thread is everywhere just a few points i would like to touch on im kind of confused it sounds almost like some of you were talking about rebellion against our own country i was thinking more along the lines of red dawn another country invades natural desaster etc but the thought that our own military will turn on us and we have to rebell makes you sound stupid do you honestly think out military guys are going to attack their own country put their neighbors in internment camps come on. i also heard private military contractors becoming a problem i guess its a good thing that blackwater is the largest PMC and they are based out of the US built from mostly ex military so again i really dont see a threat. also as for the country falling apart this country has its share of problems but as you saw when 9-11 came the country comes together rather quickly so if there was a major event i really dont think things would deteriorate to the level of putting citizens in internment camps if the us decided to turn into NAZI germany well then god help us all. but i dont see that happening

 

 

Your lack of knowledge of history and current events is astounding. There are multiple examples of what you said would not happen happening in the near past and now. I suggest you sniff what you are trying to shovel here.

[Saigaczech 9]

[Saigaczech 9]

I'm gonna abandon looking in this thread. There are some wacko's here that don't know American history very well. Bush is an armature among Presidential Constitution violators. Old Hickory defied the supreme court "I have and army, the Supreme Court does not".

The ballot box is where we make the difference. But just as true as it was 200 years ago- it is the fact that the Citizens are armed that makes the ballot box available.

 

It is my humble opinion that much of the rhetoric that is in this thread is at least subversive, and is close to treason.

 

 

Probably true, and it is a good test of how bad things have gone when we start disappearing without a trace. The problem is that unless you are willing to take the risk of disappearing and giving up all you have you can not really be considered a supporter of the foundations of this nation. I would prefer a quiet and peaceful life, but I also do not want to have the peace a sheep does in the field. At the end of that life is still the butchers knife, no matter how peaceful the preceding years. If we fear speaking our minds do we not lose that which is the essential freedom of this land? Is not dissent a patriotic ideal? All government is just controlled oppression, no matter how benevolent. You can not enact laws which please everyone. The question here is whether the government is becoming more oppressive then benevolent? I feel that when a government violates the principles under which it was founded it is violating the social contract that exists between it and the people it was created to protect. The present government is doing that. Remember what Franklin said about security and liberty.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Good idea GOB! It was enlightening while it lasted though. Gee not only did I have a complete trolling idiot from NY educate me on how vulgar I am (ooooooooooh), but the dumb sumbitch told me I was uneducated too. That takes somebody pretty damned retarded to make an observation like that about someone like me.

WEll you know what that means...

 

Out it comes again

 

 

 

 

Hey dumbass read this and take note. It may help you figure out why you have so much trouble getting along with people.

 

And y'all fuckas stop pickin at Azriel befo he come down on yo ass haad. Word!

Edited January 15, 2008 by Cobra 76 two

[Vultite 57]

Well, if you truly want a sniper rifle, go out and buy one, do your research and throw one on lay-away or save up for it, the best and cheapest thing i've seen for a true sniper deal is rem 700 SSM they only produce 500 per year and average around 950 to start, i've personally shot one and was very impressed, accuracy up to 1000 yards IF YOU HAVE THE SKILL, sniping isn't easy and never will be, practice, i'd suggest a bolt action but if you want a semi, high dollar is all you have i'm afraid, personally i like the FN and Steyr tact. sniper setups, armalite is getting better as well, but for the .308 saiga, good rugged cheap gun that can hit some 200-500 yard stuff pretty well if your a good shot, so practice and save =D

[Capt. Ferguson 0]

And y'all fuckas stop pickin at Azriel befo he come down on yo ass haad. Word! 022.gif

 

I offer Haiku to appease the offended Mall Ninja Warrior, lest he put on his special boots-

 

When I hear the call:

"there's touble at the food court,"

I'm locked and loaded.

 

Bored suburban kids

or midget terrorists? It

can be hard to tell.

 

What keeps The Gap safe?

My unblinking vigilance.

No need to thank me.

 

Step away from the

Orange Julius counter!

Don't force me to shoot!

 

Scaling up the walls

lets me keep a watch on the

Ladies' dressing rooms.

 

 

Or:

 

Read SOF ad

Send check for ancient manual

Training is complete

 

Mall Ninja flips out

Cut off paying customer's head

Cleans toilet for life.

 

Board members love me

All their body and peepee

Mall Ninja not gay

 

 

Or:

 

Plan A: living shield.

308 shots to my back?

I need a plan B

 

bad-ass sharpshooter

With Tac'd-out assault golf cart

Halt, you shoplifters!

 

retail ninja cop

with Twisted-Lotus Death Strike.

Code 3 in Housewares!

 

Double-parked shoppers

It's parking lot anarchy!

Pass me a Claymore.

 

Anti-gravity

wall-climbing ninja boots, yo!

Admit you're jealous.

 

Hicaps in my Nines

"No loitering, move along!

Food court now secure."

 

Mall Ninja's mommy

bathed him in Gun Scrubber and

knits kevlar booties

Edited January 16, 2008 by Capt. Ferguson

[fossten 1]

I wonder who all of these guys are planning to "snipe"?A sniper camps out for extended and uncomfortable periods of time often only moving 100 meters per day to avoid detection to take the perfect aimed shot at a specific person or classification of persons thereby murdering them.

You're referring to an outdated sniper doctrine. You need to read this book. This marine sniper in Iraq War II changed the sniper doctrine forever.

[SOPMOD 254]

I wonder who all of these guys are planning to "snipe"?A sniper camps out for extended and uncomfortable periods of time often only moving 100 meters per day to avoid detection to take the perfect aimed shot at a specific person or classification of persons thereby murdering them.

You're referring to an outdated sniper doctrine. You need to read this book. This marine sniper in Iraq War II changed the sniper doctrine forever.

 

If you are talking about a marksman operating in a support role with infantry that is hardly new and from what little I know hardly sniping.The Designated Marksman role of a long range support rifleman has been in use since rifled barrels were first fielded alongside muskets.

 

Murdering a person I could easily avoid if given the choice is not my cup of tea,therefore I clown all civilian wannabe sniper mall ninjas to the nteenth degree.

[SaigaNoobie 66]

I wonder who all of these guys are planning to "snipe"?A sniper camps out for extended and uncomfortable periods of time often only moving 100 meters per day to avoid detection to take the perfect aimed shot at a specific person or classification of persons thereby murdering them.

You're referring to an outdated sniper doctrine. You need to read this book. This marine sniper in Iraq War II changed the sniper doctrine forever.

 

If you are talking about a marksman operating in a support role with infantry that is hardly new and from what little I know hardly sniping.The Designated Marksman role of a long range support rifleman has been in use since rifled barrels were first fielded alongside muskets.

 

Murdering a person I could easily avoid if given the choice is not my cup of tea,therefore I clown all civilian wannabe sniper mall ninjas to the nteenth degree.

 

 

There's no nteenth degree! There is an nth degree.

 

But I agree with your last sentence, unless they're aiming/firing at you OR part of a true enemy force (Iraqi, Iranian, etc. etc.) that has invaded the country.

[SOPMOD 254]

But I agree with your last sentence, unless they're aiming/firing at you OR part of a true enemy force (Iraqi, Iranian, etc. etc.) that has invaded the country.

 

So is this hypothetical Iraqi/Iranian force invading the country or just taking over all of the convenience stores?

 

CALL THE MALL NINJA SNIPERS NOW!!!

 

They can't control our strategic Big Gulp supply without us putting up a fight!!

[ponykilr 0]

I dont post here much, but I check in from time to time. I had a nice .308 setup for long range. It would hold under 2 moa at 200yards if I did my part. It had a redstar trigger and a $100 scope mount(not the cheapie 30-40 dollar one) and a low end tasco. It was converted to pistol grip but I prefered the bulgarian thumbhole pictured. It was a great rifle, not ready for camp perry, but loads of fun.

 

[Azrial 1,091]

The Truth:

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

You can't handle the truth...

http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/th...nt=MOV00687.flv

[Rick_a 13]

I'm looking for a .308 for long range shooting (400-500 yards). i'm thinking of going with a classic Remmington bolt action, but I much rather have a semiauto and I do love those saiga's. How do you think the .308 saiga preforms as a sniper type rifle, and it's accuracy? what scope do you recommend on a saiga .308 for 400-500 yard grouping?

 

All bull aside (and back to the question) a ~2MOA rifle would be ideal. I have a Remington 700 VS up for auction right now. Contrary to popular belief, a commercial heavy barrel Remington .308 is typically only good for about ~1 MOA average. Anything better and you'll be buying yourself a custom barrel with a hand-reamed chamber on a hand-fitted action. I thought owning the best commercially available bolt gun would be the thing to do, but in my years of ownership I've fired it only once. My heavy barrel Colt AR-15 easily outshoots it with just a full float tube (with surplus SS109!), and is a ton more fun. All in all I've been unimpressed and became disinterested in it.

 

A Marine Rifleman is trained to hit a 3/4 silhouette consistently at 500 yards with an iron-sighted M16A2. Just about any .308 main battle type rifle should easily do the same. Internet sniping aside, 2MOA is plenty good unless you're punching paper in competition shooting. I've browsed the sniper boards looking for info on com-block sniper rifles. Those discussions always end up in tirades about how 1+MOA rifles are not true sniper rifles. I laugh at that crap. Regardless of the semantics behind the sniper term, most military sniper rifles are not 1/4 MOA match guns, and a 2MOA rifle is quite adequate for those ranges. Most US military sniper rifles have a maximum requirement of 1MOA, and I believe the designated marksman rifles are a bit more lax.

 

Personally, the Saiga seems like the only logical choice in .308. They are a good quality, inexpensive initial purchase, and can be modded into just about anything with a little work.

 

I'm also looking into Romanian PSL's. The only drawback is that 7.62x54R light ball can be a pain to find in an accurate load and in most areas not available locally.

 

As far as scopes any 6+ power variable Russian PSO or PSOP side-mount scope would probably fit the bill.

[SOPMOD 254]

The Truth:

 

The truth? Maybe 50 years ago but today....

 

 

This is the truth

 

 

Not an MOA "Sniper Rifle" but minute of badguy at 800 yards in the right hands with the right dope

[santanatwo 1]

I think it depends on the individual rifle.

 

I have a 16' 308 that groups 4"

 

And a 22" that gets 1.5" groups.

[Azrial 1,091]

The truth? Maybe 50 years ago but today....

(PHOTO DELETED)

Not an MOA "Sniper Rifle" but minute of badguy at 800 yards in the right hands with the right dope

So what is the difference between an AK of 50 years ago and today? Please do not speak of the AKM as an accuracy enhancement. Has the design changed otherwise when I was not looking? The video was not made 50 years ago. It well illustrates the weaknesses of the rifle for precision shooting.

 

The AK design is more then adequate for combat work, it is a very robust design! However, it is sorry excuse for a sniper platform. No winning high-power shooter has ever used one. You of course should use what every you are comfortable with.

Edited January 21, 2008 by Azrial

[Steve in Allentown, PA 5]

I have to weigh in on one aspect of this discussion.

 

Just to be clear. We're not a redneck, hillbilly family that has to depend on how we shoot to put dinner on the table. My son is not enamored with shooting. If I cajole him enough, he will grudgingly come to the range with me.

 

No need to flame me - some of my best friends are redneck hillbillies.

 

When my son was in 8th grade I took him to the range to "play" one day. During our session we went to the rifle range where he put five consecutive rounds of Wolf 7.62x39 HP into the head of an IDPA cardboard silhouette at 100 yards. This was from a bone-stock Romanian import, iron sights, from the bench, and using a sandbag to support the barrel.

 

No, it's not a sniper rifle. Would I carry one into combat? You bet.

 

The .308 takes more experience to shoot accurately becuase of the considerably more recoil which bothers inexperienced, younger shooters. But the power is undeniable. Finding the load that your particular rifle likes the best is the basic key to accuracy.

[SOPMOD 254]

The truth? Maybe 50 years ago but today....

(PHOTO DELETED)

Not an MOA "Sniper Rifle" but minute of badguy at 800 yards in the right hands with the right dope

So what is the difference between an AK of 50 years ago and today? Please do not speak of the AKM as an accuracy enhancement. Has the design changed otherwise when I was not looking? The video was not made 50 years ago. It well illustrates the weaknesses of the rifle for precision shooting.

 

The AK design is more then adequate for combat work, it is a very robust design! However, it is sorry excuse for a sniper platform. No winning high-power shooter has ever used one. You of course should use what every you are comfortable with.

 

 

 

Izhmash is not the same animal that turned out reliable but crude old workhorses like what they used in that demonstration.

 

Laser cutting,CNC machines,tolerance gauges,mandrel/hammer formed barrels,dramatically improved metalurgy and stress relieving and tempering thermal processes allow today's Kalashnikov to be a much more accurate weapon than even the AK74s produced in the 1980s.

 

What do you do to increase accuracy?

 

Thicker barrel(done)

Relieve Stresses(done)

Improve consistency of metlaurgy(done)

 

 

Maybe those guys doing the testing just sucked or were purposefully skewing the test but I can handily produce a group with any of my 1/2 dozen Kalshnikovs that would put their M16 group to shame and 4 of those I built myself in my garage!!!

 

 

The Saiga has the quality parts to build a good rifle from but their QC is sometimes lacking.I have realigned every single barrel part and redrilled the pins oversize to get them as close to perfectly straight as possible.I have had to address the lack of a decent crown and recrown my barrel and I am also trying to decide how I want to go about relieving the last few post assembly barrel stresses that are in the barrel from pressing the whole thing together(both at the factory and at home).This sound like a lot of work but when doing so allows my Saiga to do the same work as a $2500 M1A EBR with a $300 rifle then it's worth it..

 

I think that any Saiga(or other modernized Kalashnikov with a higher quality barrel) is capable of allowing a shooter to qualify "Expert" and a few of the heavier barreled models might do better than that and that surpasses any rack grade MBR currently compared to the Saiga and even knocks on the door of some of yesterday's "sniper rifles".

 

I think the modcern extreme .25 MOA "Sniper Rifle" is an attempt to militarize a match rifle for some silly reason when I have yet to hear of any but a handful of people who actually possess the skills and the balls simultaneously to take advantage of it's qualities despite it's faults(won't close on round with a spec of dust on it do to tight headspace).

 

Most of the people who are on this "Sniper Rifle" kick probably couldn't shoot much better than 1.5-2MOA anyway so what's the point of having a fragile,heavy,low capacity,quick wearing superdupersniperrifle when something that will get 99% of a normal person's long range work and a lot more reliably is available anywhere that guns are sold(FAL,SAIGA,M1A,PTR91)?

Edited January 22, 2008 by SOPMOD

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

All bull aside (and back to the question) a ~2MOA rifle would be ideal. I have a Remington 700 VS up for auction right now. Contrary to popular belief, a commercial heavy barrel Remington .308 is typically only good for about ~1 MOA average.

 

That's why I bought a savage.

[Azrial 1,091]

......The Saiga has the quality parts to build a good rifle from but their QC is sometimes lacking.I have realigned every single barrel part and redrilled the pins oversize to get them as close to perfectly straight as possible.I have had to address the lack of a decent crown and recrown my barrel and I am also trying to decide how I want to go about relieving the last few post assembly barrel stresses that are in the barrel from pressing the whole thing together(both at the factory and at home).This sound like a lot of work but when doing so allows my Saiga to do the same work as a $2500 M1A EBR with a $300 rifle then it's worth it.....

 

SOPMOD, you seem like a decent fellow, but you are argueing your custom tuned AK vs. factory built, military issue rifles. That is arguing apples and oranges.

 

A Saiga that will outshoot a Ultramatch M1A? Sorry, but I will belive it when I see it. Show me one that can win a high power match and I will be a beliver. People are not spending that kind of money because they are stupid, the AK can not, and never has been able to compete.

 

That said, many of the tricks done to a Ultramatch or custom M1A to extract that level of accuracy have no business on a combat rifle!

 

I am not anti-AK! I just accept the fact that there are some things it does well, and some that it does not. No rifle does everything well, and there are other talented designers besides Mikhail Kalashnikov.

[Rick_a 13]

The lore of the M1A is a bit overblown IMO. Fact is a Saiga is comparable in performance to standard (and even some custom) M1A's for 1/3 the price. It wouldn't surprise me at all if one would shoot just as well with the same amount of work put into it. I think the comparison is pretty valid. There's no such thing a military issue M14 you can buy. It's called commercial grade which is often better. I think it'd be great if someone used a AK-based MBR in competition, but the iron sights suck and the aftermarket isn't much better. American rifles have always had exceptional irons with good adjustability (mostly) that are well suited to service competition use.

[SaigaNoobie 66]

WHat about MOJO Peep sights for the Saiga? I hear they're good sights.

 

How much does an M1A Ultramatch cost there Azrial?

 

I found a NIB Super Match M1A for 2300. Assuming that an "Ultra-Match" Costs a bit more, you're willing to bet that if you put $2000 of work into a Saiga .308, you can't get it to shoot better than an M1A?

 

I did some research and the best I could find for accuracy out of an M1A Supermatch was just under 1 MOA with HANDLOADS using glass.

 

I can't help but think that if you reinforced the Receiver with welded pieces (a la PSG1) and installed a bull barrel with 1:10 twist & a good crown, that with Handloaded ammo you couldn't shoot SUBMOA.

[SOPMOD 254]

The lore of the M1A is a bit overblown IMO. Fact is a Saiga is comparable in performance to standard (and even some custom) M1A's for 1/3 the price. It wouldn't surprise me at all if one would shoot just as well with the same amount of work put into it. I think the comparison is pretty valid. There's no such thing a military issue M14 you can buy. It's called commercial grade which is often better. I think it'd be great if someone used a AK-based MBR in competition, but the iron sights suck and the aftermarket isn't much better. American rifles have always had exceptional irons with good adjustability (mostly) that are well suited to service competition use.

 

 

I used to shoot DCM matches at military school and as an adult in the late 1980's and I would occasionally place high with a rifle that when combined with me as the shooter was 1.5-2MOA.The total cost of that rifle back then was $650 with a Krieger barrel,unitized gas block and 1/2MOA sights in 1987.

 

In my private shooting time I had a Vietnam Era Style Leatherwood scope and an M2 bipod and could hit the 800 yard steel Javelina target with surprising regularity.This was a rifle built by a retired Dept of the Army instructor who was building rifles for the Army in the 1960s and he called my rifle an M21 despite the fact that it didn't have a lugged receiver.

 

That same rifle now would cost $2000+ and My Saiga will do anything that rifle will do so why isn't it an according to hoyle "long range rifle"?Is 800 yards not long range enough?

 

Azrial,you are making comments similar to a person who gets hung up on name brands and doesn't recognize the real thing by it's qualities rather than is label.

[SaigaNoobie 66]

The lore of the M1A is a bit overblown IMO. Fact is a Saiga is comparable in performance to standard (and even some custom) M1A's for 1/3 the price. It wouldn't surprise me at all if one would shoot just as well with the same amount of work put into it. I think the comparison is pretty valid. There's no such thing a military issue M14 you can buy. It's called commercial grade which is often better. I think it'd be great if someone used a AK-based MBR in competition, but the iron sights suck and the aftermarket isn't much better. American rifles have always had exceptional irons with good adjustability (mostly) that are well suited to service competition use.

 

 

I used to shoot DCM matches at military school and as an adult in the late 1980's and I would occasionally place high with a rifle that when combined with me as the shooter was 1.5-2MOA.The total cost of that rifle back then was $650 with a Krieger barrel,unitized gas block and 1/2MOA sights in 1987.

 

In my private shooting time I had a Vietnam Era Style Leatherwood scope and an M2 bipod and could hit the 800 yard steel Javelina target with surprising regularity.This was a rifle built by a retired Dept of the Army instructor who was building rifles for the Army in the 1960s and he called my rifle an M21 despite the fact that it didn't have a lugged receiver.

 

That same rifle now would cost $2000+ and My Saiga will do anything that rifle will do so why isn't it an according to hoyle "long range rifle"?Is 800 yards not long range enough?

 

Azrial,you are making comments similar to a person who gets hung up on name brands and doesn't recognize the real thing by it's qualities rather than is label.

 

I have to agree.

 

Before I found Saigas, i was in the market for an M1A rifle from Springfield. I wanted an Accurate Semi-auto rifle in .308 and the M1A fit the bill. I did some research and found out that the stock M1A at $1200 was only guaranteed 3 MOA. People were happy getting 2MOA out of the 1200 version.... So I looked at the higher dollar rifles. The match rifles. 1-2 MOA... the Super match 1 MOA but at 2500 I couldn't justify the cost.... then I stumbled upon a saiga at a local store and was informed about the .308 and shotgun versions. SO I took to the interweb and I found out that the Saiga at $300 was a 2-3 MOA rifle.... Then I found this board and read about all the 1-2 MOA reports out of a $300 rifle with $100 worth of conversion work and parts + Handloads / Good ammo. So I purchased a 7.62x39 while I waited on the .308v21 and then an S-12.... the x39 was a 2-3 MoA rifle in stock config... with the new trigger it dropped to 1-2".... It's definitely more accurate than I AM. So, since my $270 +extras rifle shoots as well as the 2100 Match M1A (albeit not as flat a trajectory or as high a velocity) at 1-2" groups at 100yrds, that begs the question.... Are you really getting what you pay for when it comes to M1A rifles? If the answer is NO, then you better believe that you can make a $300 S-308 shoot as good as a Super-match (1MOA) for well under the cost difference.... hell, just a good crown can help. Did you see the post of the guy who re-crowned his barrel? I think I'll rent Dinzag's 11 degree crowning tool unless my 308 shoots 1" as is when I get it.... Still saves me $1900 by getting the Saiga 308.

 

And who cares if the best I can do is 2MOA? That's still in the vitals of a White-tail at 600yrds.

Edited January 22, 2008 by SaigaNoobie

[NY-proletariat 0]

As Gabe Suarez stated: The Saiga will do if you'll do. Body hits to 500 yds and head shots to 200yds is 2-4 MOA and M-1A's,FAL's, HK's,AR-10's and Saigas are all capable in their rack grade configurations. It makes little sense to spend your $1000 budget on a rifle and then not be able to afford to buythe ammo and gobs of accessories that are needed to keep a modern rifle running. A Saiga is dirt cheap compared to the others. With that same $1000, you can buy the rifle,a case of ammo, a couple of mags, and a cleaning kit and be good to go. The other rifles wouldn't be affordable with that kind of budget. Most of us here know which guns are and which guns aren't. The first thing you have to decide is your need for such a rifle and if you have the courage to use it if the time ever comes. Then you spend the money(what you were able squirrel away out of the family budget without getting in to trouble by the wife!! ) and practice until you can repeat your results over and over again(and not just once from a bench in good weather either!)Most people go and buy lots of guns and buy very little ammo to train with and argue on these forums as to which gun shoots better and which doesn't! Most of it is just drivel repeated from gun writers who are just trying to get you to buy more guns, because that's what they're paid to do! And they do a very good job too , because you see very few people at the range or at shooting matches, but many at the gunstores buying another gun, no accessories, very little ammo, and then put it all on plastic that has to be paid for by working twice as hard to pay it off before the interest on their bills climbs any higher. If it does, then you see the same people back at the store trading the same gun back in(at a loss!) or selling it outright(also at a loss). When you ask them how it shoots, they say...."I don't know, because I never get to go shooting anymore because I have to work double shifts to pay off the plastic or the wife made me sell it because we need a new dining room set or a trip to Cancun,Mx.! I wish I has nickel for everytime I've heard stuff like this. If people would only just buy a couple of guns and a gazillion rds of ammo for practice, the scumbag's in charge of this God forsaken country would be shaking in their booties because we'd have a nation of riflemen and not a nation of debtors trying to stay above water trying to pay off their credit card bills! BTW: Historicaly, a nation of debtors is more easily conquered than ones who aren't. Debtors become apathetic and lazy from working too much to stay afloat in an ocean of debt! Every empire in history crumbled from within, not from invasion!

 

 

 

 

Note: I've yet to get any Saiga of mine to shoot 2 MOA(all 16" barrels with plain, crummy sights). I can get body hits at 300 yds, but that's it. This not from a bench, but from standard shooting positions. Where as I can do this all day with an M-1A, FAL, or HK-91 with good ammo. But I'll keep on trying until I do. That's what it's all about. Practice, practice,practice........!!!!!

Edited January 23, 2008 by NY-proletariat

[Azrial 1,091]

......Azrial,you are making comments similar to a person who gets hung up on name brands and doesn't recognize the real thing by it's qualities rather than is label.

No sir, I am not. I am making comments like a guy that has shot a little High Power but has never ever, ever, ever, seen a Saiga dragged out of a case, much less be competitive at a match. By the way, we are now talking about putting $2000+ into a Saiga to try to make it competitive. I know a little more about rifles then which end the bullets come out.

 

But you are making comments like a guy with a favorite football team. You could care less how they perform in the real world. It does not bother you one bit that no one has ever been able to reproduce your claimed results in match, or most folks real world experience. You are just an AK booster! The rifle that will do it all, for less cash then every other fool is wasting on their rifle! Frankly, I am calling bullshit.

 

But, who knows, I could be wrong! You may be the Saiga/AK master! If you can truly tweak an inexpensive Saiga .308, and presumably ever other Saiga into a competitive rifle, you have marketable skill there! How soon can I expect to see one of your custom creations out there winning matches? That would shut me up! It would not bother me to be wrong, just show me.

 

By the way, even though I own an M1A it is an old tuned and tweaked "picked" rack grade that could use a fresh barrel. I have had it since I was 20 years old. It will not keep up with an Ultra Match, or a lot of the big buck custom jobs. Their owners must do their part, but many times they don't, do they?

 

I have considered buying ArmaLite's AR-10 SuperSASS Rifle, but the truth is I do not shoot often enough lately, my situation has changed. The AR-10 will do out of the box what a truly custom M1A will, without glass bedding. My custom Remington 700P will out shoot it

 

However, I will be standing in line to buy a Super-Duper Match/Combat/HRT/Saiga, just as soon as I see one live up to the on-line fantasy.

[paprotective 362]

Obviously an AR fan.

 

[Conklin 0]

Ill stand by it...I know for a fact I could hit a medium-large critter/person at 5-600 yards...maybe further with a good pso and some more practice. Thats as accurate as it needs to be. Its a cheap, no frills semi automatic that is designed to sling lead and it does just that, quite well considering the price and the market.

 

Would i say its a sniper/long range rifle? Not at all. However, A saiga with a little tuning would probably make a decent designated marksmen rifle. In that respect, coming up against rifles like the m1a and the dragunov, it would need a bit of work but i think thats perfectly within the spectrum of the rifles capabilitys...maybe even less then i give it credit for.

 

I love m1a's and want one eventually, but ill stick by my saiga. Its a great, inexepnsive battle rifle. Im planning on taking a buck with mine this coming season.