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Saiga .308 as a sniper/long range rifle


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I love that pic on the wikipedia link from GunnyR, with the MC general shooting the MK11. Its the sniper rifle we all aspire to have, but due to cost and ability, most of us don't get. We know that a $1000 dollar setup is good enough to get the job done.

 

A remington 700 will shoot 1/2 to 1 MOA without too much trouble and investment.

The Saiga 308 is the high capacity shootout weapon for 400 yards or less, but can reach out to 600 yard effectively if you are trained well enough.

The right tool for the right job.-Yes I'd own an M1A if my budget would allow it, but if I ever need to do some serious sniping, it'll have to be with my remington in .270, it will kill a man just as well as an elk.(Its also the rifle I have the most lifetime experience with for long shots and or moving targets). I love all my weapons, but I know which one to use for what.

 

Ability can overcome equipment limitations, but only to a point.

 

Happy Shooting!

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I tried posting this yesterday, but my computer was being an ass-hat. Let's try this again:

 

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Buckandaquarter: You might want to take a look into 155 grain palma bullets from Sierra. Those, and the Moly-Coated 175 grain SMK bullets, are both winners with IMR 4064 or 4895. It (21" barrel version) seems to like the same loads as our M14. If that isn't wierd - considering the drastically different twist rates and such - I don't know what is.

 

Out of a cold barrel, the first shot from mine goes exactly where the crosshairs are. I'm using BRG3's psuedo-pistol-grip furniture, a side-to-weaver mount (BP-02A from Tantal) with a Bushnell Elite 3200 10x40 scope mounted in Millet Angle-Loc rings (those things are *sweet*), and an AK-74 style AR-10 muzzlebrake (courtesy of our friends at Bushmaster, and a lot of work from my local gunsmith). No. This gun doesn't even have iron sights anymore.

 

The point of impact doesn't seem to wander on my gun, though the groups do open up as the barrel heats up. I never bothered to measure how much though. Hopefully within the next year I'll be able to get out to a range where I can actually try these guns out to 600 yards. Despite the hopelessly flat countour of the land here, there aren't many shooting ranges that go past 100 yards.

 

I hate Illinois.

 

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Since yesterday: Yeah. The job requirements are different in different fields. Dependent upon the requirements, certain equipment has more merits than others. What i was trying to get at, but should have just said, is that "sniping" is just one job among many that a single person (usually soldier) may have. I'm glad to hear that snipers are being deployed in information gathering roles. I'd imagine they'd be great for artillery spotting as well.

 

Interesting tidbit from a Vietnam vet: "M21s issued to members of spike/hatchet teams often had functional full-auto selectors."

 

The terms used to describe the teams he was talking about were rather interchangeable. Basically, the idea was to destroy a specific target, that might be human or material. Scopes issued with said M21s were apparently carried in cans/pouches until the team was in position. The single-point mounts allowed for acceptable return to zero, especially when modified by drilling and tapping that giant knob to accept an extension with a hex nut the same size as the one on the gas-cylinder of the M14. Thus, that take-down tool could be used to: ".. crank that sucker down tight." Apparently the ability to fire bursts was useful during the skirmishes that sometimes occurred as the team was en route to their intended target. Fully automatic sniper rifle? That's just wierd. Then again, the Soviet RPK accepts optics, has a heavy barrel, and could lose the bipod temporarily to be loaded with short magazines of match ammo. <shrug> Truth really could be stranger than ficition, eh? ;)

 

I don't mean to say that firing full-auto while sighting through a telescopic sight is a good idea, but it does beg the question doesn't it?

 

Far as bolt action vs. semi-auto goes:

 

It depends on range. If I was shooting from more than 400-600 yards away (depending on terrain), I'd be fine with a bolt rifle. Interviews with German snipers following WW2 showed that the movement required to load another round was what got them spotted most often. If my target were that far away though, I'd not be quite as concerned (depending on what type of back-up I have). Closer, I'd definitely want a semi-auto for the same reason.

 

Either way I'd want a suppressor if at all possible. That's not to say I'd want to be shooting a sub-sonic cartridge though. Two very nifty things happen when you shoot a super-sonic cartridge through a gun equipped with a suppressor. First, the muzzle blast is effectively eliminated. This makes the sonic-boom, created by said super-sonic projectile, non-directional. Someone might hear it, but they'll have no idea what direction it came from. (Basic geometry: you need at least two points to define a line, in this case the points are noises.) The other reason would be that muzzle *flash* is completely eliminated. That means that even if they're looking in the right direction and hear the sonic-boom created by a bullet going by, they won't see the muzzle flash. If you're really interested, check out the September 2007 issue of American Rifleman (Pg 69 -72), where they talk about the use of "Starlight" night-vision scopes in conjunction with Sionics sound-suppressors on M21s/M14s by the 9th ID. "We Own The Night," has a whole new meaning after reading that article. Apparently another of trick (not mentioned in that article) used by American soldiers working graveyard-shift in defensive positions (at fire-bases and such) was to mount said passive night-vision scopes on their rifles and slap infra-red filters on the base's flood lamps. Bad juju for the VC.

 

I've got loads of these stories if anyone is interested. ;)

 

For those of you who like to harp on the shininess of brass cases (and think that someone will see one flying through the air from any long distance), I'd like to introduce you to a technology in use since WW2: lacquer coated steel cases. In particular, I cite the WW2 vintage German surplus 8x57mm Mauser ammo currently on the market. It is steel cased, lacquer coated, and was intended for use in machine-guns. That's what the boxes I saw said anyway - und ja, Ich spreche ein bischen Deutsch. My German writing skills are a *bit* rusty though, I think the big red "für MG" gives it away. The following pic comes from J&G Sales:

 

http://www.jgsales.com/images/8mmGermanSte...ageQuality=Full

 

I think that's a good stopping point.

 

....

 

Damn I'm long-winded today.

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I'd feel bad about doing that, seeing how the saiga treats the ejected brass - and I'd definitely want to save Federal Gold Medal Match brass for reloading. That's another project I've yet to tackle: port buffer.

 

BuckandaQuarter: If you have any specific questions or anything, feel free to PM me.

 

Another thing I'd suggest to improve your groups with the saiga is the use of a good competition sling. Adjusted right, when you get into position, it's hard *not* to shoot good.

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I have this rifle.http://www.gilbertsguns.com/Rifles/Saiga/Saiga+Sporter+308+Wood+21+8+Rifle

with this scope...http://www.gilbertsguns.com/Scopes/Barska/Barska+Tactical+4-16x50+Green+IR+Scope

shooting this ammo..http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php?pName=20rds-308-hornady-le-amax-match-tap-168gr-ammo&cName=308-762-nato-match-grade

 

all day long less than an inch ,for five rounds........and you can blow up two liter soda botles out past 400 yards easily..........

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I'd feel bad about doing that, seeing how the saiga treats the ejected brass - and I'd definitely want to save Federal Gold Medal Match brass for reloading. That's another project I've yet to tackle: port buffer.

 

BuckandaQuarter: If you have any specific questions or anything, feel free to PM me.

 

Another thing I'd suggest to improve your groups with the saiga is the use of a good competition sling. Adjusted right, when you get into position, it's hard *not* to shoot good.

 

Back in the mid eighties I had an HK91 that came with an ejection port buffer. I wonder if one of those couldn't be adapted for the S-308?

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Thanks for the info. I loaded up 168 SMK's over a carefully measured 43.5gr of Ramshot TAC and was happy with the results. This was over a mixed brass lot (not all same brand). Less than ideal conditions with a wind and very cold hands.

 

First two shots came in right on the on inch bull, then a stringing up to one and a half inches over the target. Not counting the string itself and two fliers that were my bad, 16 of the 18 remaining shots (from the 22 round mag) were within about two inches. Factoring in my errors on that large of a group, it was considerably tighter than the four to five inch group I would have gotten previously from hunting bullets. I shot the rest of the 50 rounds I made to fireform more brass for my bolt gun.

 

The upside here is that the same load did half an inch routinely in my bolt gun. Given what the saiga is, a 1.5 in group from a gun I spent $355 on (including the tapco trigger) is quite satisfying. Cold as hell now, so I may leave more fine tuning til spring.

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Pretty much straight up and down. I'd expect that given the gas piston above it which expands at a different rate. It's worthy of being a backup deer rifle when freinds come to visit the farm during deer season. It outperforms slugs in a smoothbore shotgun by a wide margin. A nice dual role platform given the price.

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Finally someone in authority has spoken and brought us all back to reality. Gaberial is one of the best instuctors/commentators of our time. I'm elated that he is bringing a breathe of fresh air to the second amendment subject. Enough of the sporting/hunting weapon psycho-babble that we've all been brought upon by our politicians and even the NRA. What Gabe has brought up here is basically survival of our nation. When this country finally makes the big push against its own citizens(instead of someone else's) the time for talk will be over. It will be come as you are and what you have with you when the ballon goes up. Having the best weapon means nothing if you can't afford the ammo or accessories that go with it. No ammo, no training...no training...no skills...no skills...no freedom! CQB weapons and tactics sounds cool to SWAT and SF types,but to us lowly civilians who have limited budgets and do not have the ability to run the printing presses an extra few minutes to pay for all of the latest Hi-tech gadgets, it ain't the right way to go. I've seen people literally bankrupt themselves trying to keep up with the gadget wars that the gun magazines are constantly telling us we "should" have if we want to be like _(insert name of latest special ops group of the day!). They have the latest and greatest goodies but have to work double-triple overtime to pay off their credit card bills and never have the time to go out to see if the latest gadget touted by the so-called expert ,gun press, gurus works right or if they have the ability to use it properly. Very few actually spend the money to go to someone such as Gabe to be tested or trained properly. They all think that if they have the latest gadget that so and so commado group uses then they are just as good. This is a very deadly assuption. When the ballon goes up, it will be you, your weapon and your skill or lack of skill that will be in the field...cold, frozen and wet and suddenly you'll find out(hopefully before it's too late!) that your latest goodie doesn't work too well or that it doesn't work without special batteries that either you couldn't afford because of your huge credit card balance that month or because you left it switched on after you got done showing it off to your friends to rub it their faces that you have the latest and greatest

goodie like so and so commando group uses!!

 

 

So do as he suggests and buy up all your weapons and ammo now and take one of his excellent courses to actually learn the right way to use the new goodies you spent your hard earned FRN's on. If we have millions of trained riflemen out there in reality land, then maybe the wimpy politicians will think twice about trying to enslave us like the Nazis who feared the the millions of Swiss citizen soldiers who were all armed with rifles, ammo, and most importantly....training in how to use them. This scared the Nazis off from invading Switzerland because the their casualty rate would've been too high.

 

 

Like the old story goes: Kaiser Wilhelm asked the crusty old Swiss NCO what he would do if the German army that was twice the size of Switzerland's invaded.

 

Old crusty Swiss NCO: Why Mr. Kaiser...I'd have my men shoot twice then!

 

 

Amen Gabe! Keep the faith!

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I agree. I get my rifles with Iron sites and add a nice REGULAR scope so when the scope breaks I can put on my Navy issue BC glasses (you know the ones) and still keep shooting.

 

Tooo many items on the gun just makes it a BIG paperweight or BAT when everything goes to pot when the SHTF does happen.

 

If your using a laser site, just lite a cigarette at night and sit right in front of the enemy.

 

On cars we used to say Chrome won't get you home, neither will all the crap on you prized glory-rifle with all the latest gizmos on it.

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Maybe the Moderators can get Mr. Suarez to be a regular on this site? Maybe his own catagory to answer any questions on training, weapons,and tactics? This would give this site a great boost as it would have an internationally known expert to call upon by the site's members.

 

 

Or, register on his warriortalk.com forum. Between his own forum, traveling to conduct his classes, and running his business, I would doubt he has time to make the rounds of other pro-ak forums. He might, it's free advertising for his courses, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

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What in the hell are we talking about here?

 

Who exactly are these "guerrilla snipers" going to target?

 

A couple things to keep in mind:

 

1) As we speak thousands of combat hardened vets are trying to make the transition back to civilian life so if what you theorize is going to happen does happen....well then we can talk about guerrilla sniping and developing an ambush mentality. But yeah there are actually several thousands of trigger pullers out there in our society now.

2) The energy and money expended mastering those long distance shots and attending schools might be better spent making changes through the legal and political process if you're that unhappy about it.

3) "Reality" is a subjective term. The Zen masters and the samurai knew this. You want to learn how to take a life? Start by preparing yourself to die. Once you get that down the tools and the skills are secondary.

 

And that is my two cents on this matter.

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Who are they going to target? Tyrants and there charges!

 

Several thousand trigger pullers? Pulling triggers for whom? The tyrants or themselves?

 

 

Matering the political process instead of training? Those who control the currency, control you. Ever since this country went to a phoney fiat currency in 1913, the control belongs to those that print it out of thin air. You'll never have enough money to change the political process as the controllers can always print more than you can make,hence the high cost of gas and other necessities.

 

 

Training to snipe or shoot is your civic duty like it is in Switzerland). If you think this country will never , ever turn against its own citizens then you were obviously asleep during history class when they taught about the internment of Japanese "Americans" during WWII. Or were also asleep during the last century when gov'ts (including our own)killed hundreds of millions of their own citizens because they weren't of the right ethnic or political persuasion. Our founding fathers knew full well that all gov'ts become corrupt over time which is why they added the 2nd amendment in the first place(personally I think it should've been first instead of second!). If you think this gov't is still the "good guys", then you've been watching too many John Wayne movies where the US was still the good guys. See Ron Paul's web site on how "good" this country really is and then report back here on your findings. Even if he was elected (and stayed alive through his term!), there would be such an outcry because most everyone has gotten used to the gov't tit in one way or another. The nice thing about having a fiat currency is you can keep on printing it to pay off any voting block without the others knowing about it. Ron Paul would try to end all of this which would cause riots in the streets, which would mean you'd be fighting with your "sniping skills" to save your hiney!

 

 

Remember if this was a free country, we'd have no gun laws at all! Even CCW permits have been shoved down our throats as being "reasonable gun laws" and we've swallowed that as gun owners,hook , line, and sinker! So get some real training and learn how to fight properly because someday you'll wish you had like the poor Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto who always thought that guns were evil(and most stiil do!) until the Nazis rounded them up to die! Or the Armenians who were rounded up by the Turks!

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Yeah I'm supporting Ron Paul too but I guess I have a hell of a lot more faith in my fellow Americans than to think I'm going to have to actively engage them in combat.

 

Because I've actually fought insurgents in places like Ramadi and Fallujah, I have a damn good idea of how to fight like one and I'm telling you right now, I don't ever wish that on anyone currently living in America....ever. But you're never going to see the 82nd Airborne deployed and occupying Main Street USA. What you will see is the gradual degradation of freedoms until you have an entire population that's never known anything but relying on the state for everything. We aren't quite there yet. Were Ron Paul to win the presidency he's not going to make drastic changes but he's going to start that gradual trend towards returning our liberties to us. He still has to work with Congress after all.

 

The mechanism for change is already in place but it's a matter of getting people to participate. You want to have everyone learn to shoot because it's their civic duty well that's fine. Voting and sitting on a jury are also civic duties and most people can relate to the problems we already have doing those things. Getting people motivated about taking the future of this country in their own hands is a lot more constructive than teaching them to shoot in preparation of the American Gestapo that's going to round them up. And those Japanese-Americans were rounded up because American society allowed them to be rounded up. Think about that. The outcry that should have come from Americans of German or Italian descent should have been enormous. I would guess that the reason there wasn't a bigger outcry was that the government was able to keep it quiet for some time and there was some complicity on the part of the American people. Not all Americans mind you, just enough to keep them in internment camps.

 

Do I think the government as "good guys"? Well, yes and no. That "Good vs. Evil" crap is never that simple and if you try and operate under that mentality you get something like...Iraq. There are good people in our government and then there are power hungry career politicians who'd eat their young to garner a vote (Clinton sitting with her daughter comes to mind). However I do think that we are seeing a paradigm shift in political history because of technology. Never before have so many people been able to act in a collective manner in almost real time. Any politician that doesn't understand the ramifications of this is doomed to fail. If we as a people don't harness this power then we are doomed to fail.

 

I've invested 16 years of "civic duty" as you call it (I call it the Marine Corps) and I refuse to declare our political system a failure. I do know that the next time I bear arms against a group of people, it better be because foreign troops are lined up on our borders. It damn sure won't be to fight Americans troops. If it comes to that, then we have all failed because of what we did or didn't do when we had the chance.

 

Oh and another thing. This "real training" you're referring to isn't really a curriculum. It's a mindset. There is no "proper" way to fight. Use any technique that keeps you alive and kills your enemy. On second thought, use any technique that kills your enemy. Personal survival isn't always necessary.

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Go Gunny!

 

The reason to be an armed citizen is that unarmed citizens become SUBJECTS.

I am old and my eyesight is not great---but---I can shoot, and I have things that shoot and ammo for the same.

Just HAVING an armed populace makes us safer from tyranny.

Extreme long range sniping is for the young and steady handed, and there is never a need for them in HUGE numbers.

That said, if the challlenge of long range marksmansip appeals to you, it is a great hobby. By all means take it up!

The rest of us are best served with a S-.308 and 20rd mags. (an AK or 2 inX-39 is handy also!)

 

AND ---- Vote for Dr. Paul!

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Welcome to the fold Jake! Better late than never! Keep up the training.

 

 

Gunny, you're probably right. We'll never even hear a shot fired in anger in this nation as most

of us will be too busy trying make their mortgage and heating bills. The problem with our system of high taxation and fiat currency is people won't have time to revolt because they'll be too busy working triple overtime to pay all their debts. The problem is that we've gone from a very rich creditor nation to the world's biggest debtor nation who has to be bailed out by the Asian and Arab powers just to stay afloat. Most empires don't die from attacks from without, but they crumble from within. Our currency is rapidly shrinking while the Chinese(and other Asian powers) are rising. Just in the last 30 days they've bailed out our four biggest(and world's biggest!) banks with more on the way. How long do you think they'll keep pumping money into a nation of habitual gamblers/spenders before they figure out they ain't going to be paid back. The same people you were fighting against not too long ago will be your new masters. Ironic huh? Maybe all of your fighting will have been for naught. What a shame as you probably gave your all as well as all of your mates. But that's the chance we all take in trusting politicians to do the "right" thing. LOL

 

So maybe we don't need to spend all of our hard earned FRN's on Sniper weapons and training! Maybe we should be selling all of our weapons and ammo and invest the money into foreign(Asian) currencies to get ready for the real threat that we face...economic extermination! Having welfare, foreign aid, socialist security, corporate welfare costs money(Taxes). We've been bled dry by our gov't and now we have to pay the piper only it will be the Chinese and Arabs who we've been treating like third rate countries for years. Now it's their turn to spit in our eyes thanks to our "good guy" politicians who've printed their(and our!) way into the poor house. Well I have to be off to sell off all of my weapons and ammo now. I'm also late for my Mandarin Chinese class.....our first and only phrase that we llearn in class is "How do I serve you my Chinese masters"!

 

 

 

Vote for Ron Paul....the only true Conservative and follower of the Constitution. The rest are all socialists with different names and parties.

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I'm looking for a .308 for long range shooting (400-500 yards). i'm thinking of going with a classic Remmington bolt action, but I much rather have a semiauto and I do love those saiga's. How do you think the .308 saiga preforms as a sniper type rifle, and it's accuracy? what scope do you recommend on a saiga .308 for 400-500 yard grouping?

 

 

So........getting back to the AK-fanaddict's original question.....

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+1 to the saiga if you dont have cashflow but otherwise i would suggest a springfield m1a may not get what a bolt rifle does but it reaches out there better than my fal or g3 i do not have any experience w/ the saiga 308 but i do know my M1A gets the job done as for the AR10 i have owned one but its not the rifle that my M1A is i ended up getting rid of it when i got the m1a but if you really want accuracy for cheap go w/ the bolt gun remington 700 pss is not that expensive and a very nice rifle w/ an affective range of 800 meters chambered in 308

 

I "discovered" the M1A on the Impact Guns sight a few days ago. I think I may "need" one. If I were to add something other than a Saiga or Saiga conversion this year it would be either the Masada, a Norvesk (?) or now the M1A. From what I understand you to be saying, the M1A would be far more accurate beyond 100 meters than the other two choices. Plus, wouldn't it be easier to clean (I'm not into cleaning anything) and more reliable? I also like the look of the M1A as opposed to adding another AR type rifle to the collection.

 

Are you aware of any place that sells them at a better price than Impact.

 

Thanks,

WJ

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The problem with the political process is that our Constitution and the "right to vote" have been degraded to the point that my vote (taxpayer, loyal husband, employer, reasonably well educated -Doctorate on the wall, Scout Leader, Deacon at Church, Father of two etc....) is exactly the same as the 5th grade educated, homeless, crack whore that works the local truck stop.

 

That is why the political process will fail. There was a reason that certain people were excluded from the voting franchise by the Founders- I hate to say it but think of it what you will- the Founders saw the average voter as WHITE, MALE, PROPERTY OWNER or BUSINESSMAN, EDUCATED CLASSICALY, AGED 25-60. Then think about the schumcks that actually pull the levers in this country and figure out what the problem is. Have you ever READ the original Constitution or accounts of post colonial life to understand how the Founders came to their political views? Why was Thoreau so pissed that he sat in a cabin on Walden Pond for two years?- Poll Taxes, literacy tests, etc........ensured that Idiots did not vote! Now the entrenched politicians take them to the POLLS to ensure they get to vote, right from the damn asylums practically!

 

There is NO political solution to this problem. The idiots of the world have been allowed to freely multiply and now threaten to overwhelm us. If our country were still a Republic....which it is now in name only, we might have a chance. It is now a sorry damn, pathetic democracy and the MOB RULES. Guess what? They don't think like US and nothing is going to change that but bullets at this point!

 

If I wasn't on a list I suppose I am now, but that is the truth of the matter. Anybody that can't understand that is fooling themselves.

 

 

NOW, on to the Saiga as a Partisan sniping rifle. As a DMR, good for body hits out to 600 yards I think it should serve fine. I would want to mod it with a Red Star trigger and a standard AK type stock or the Dragunov type to make it more shootable. I would carefully select the scope mount to ensure rock solid attachment and then try ammo until I found something that would consistently shoot 2 MOA, handloads or factory......good enough for this type of work. Would probably also want to put on some kind of flash suppressor-important at the distances involved.

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The AK is probably more reliabe (but not by much) but is easier to break down and service because it was made for the lowest common denominator. With its flexible stamped receiver, the AK's accuracy can't match a good M-1A that's tight. It's either accuracy or reliability....trying to have both has been what weapons makers have been trying to achieve for hunderds of years. Each time someone comes up with some new weapom system that supposedly has both, soldiers using it in real combat conditions (and not simulated conditions!)prove them wrong!

 

But it's back to what Gariel Suarez stated....what is your goal and what is your budget. It does no good to want "the best weapon" if your budget isn't upto it. What good is being able to afford to buy the Ferrari and not being able to drive it alot because you can't afford the gas,oil, and insurance that goes with it and so it sits in the garage only to looked at and dreamed about.(until the old lady tells you to "get that no good piece of junk out of her house"!!). Many make this mistake and learn how expensive it is to become really proficient with these types of weapon systems. Then they insult to injury by buying many different kinds of weapons instead of the tons of ammo it takes to master long range shooting. I wish I had a nickel for everyone I've met in this business who has tons of guns at home in their closets and safes but very little ammo to go shooting with. This keeps them working full time to pay the enormous credit card bills instead of mastering their rifles. CMP matches is one cheap way to learn how to shoot long range and get to learn from real masters. Although it isn't combat conditions and many rely upon tight match grade rifles to win matches, the basic concept of teaching basic marksmanship for long range shooting is still valid. My club offers free use of M-1 Garands as long as you pay the $12 for ammo per match! Where else can you have that much fun and learn something useful for 12 bucks? Speaking of Garands....If you shoot at the club matches, you become eligible to buy them from CMP cheap. Ammo is also cheap and can be hade much cheaper (about $250/1000) than any ball ammo for 223 or 308 ($300-$600/1000) rifles. And there are very few people hit by a 30-06 who get back up again! Plus a Garand needs no magazines, has great sights,and parts are still easy to get because no one thinks these "old" rifles are any good because you canh't hang all the latest "Hi-Tech" goodies of them. I've had youger guys sit and laugh at how old and obsolete the Garands are at the range until they see the results on the targets at 300 and 600 yards....something that the 223 and 7.62x39 crowd can't even dream of. Then they argue that you can't hang new goodies off of it either. So what.! At 500 yards....I don't need CQB goodies to shoot someone with.

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Glad to have some company on "the list"!

 

Lol.....truly, though, I believe that the center of this country can not forever hold up countless "voters" of benefits to themselves who produce nothing or certainly not as much as they believe themselves entitled to. The end result is a general societal breakdown and either anarchy or some form of totalitarianism- either Fascism that "saves us" from the mobs or "Socialism" that seeks to placate the mobs and feeds on them.

 

This is the choice that the Germans were faced with in the late 1920's....we all know which path they chose and where it ultimately led. The Russians had a similar choice during WWI when the White and Red factions struggled for control of the country.... again, we all know where that path led and ultimately the price paid was nearly the same, ideology aside!

 

Either way, the center, where most of us are, is screwed!

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