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Saiga .308 as a sniper/long range rifle


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sniper rifle-depends on requirements.

 

military 1000 m max effective with m24 and 7.62 175gn m118 lr. at a MAN sized target. 168 gn m118 sucks past 500 but effective at man sized at 600

 

Police- 2" 200 m. m24 m118 special ball 168 gn

 

I trained for both and these loads were developed specifically for the m24. Different requirements for different situations. SRT(SWAT) we trained to shoot a hostage taker and disable their ability to to pull the trigger and kill the hostage. Field we train to hit a man as far as the ammo and rifle can shoot.

 

 

There is no reason a Saiga could not work as a field/military intermediate sniper(man sized to 600) with the proper improvements and ammo load.

 

The big problem with AK based rifles is the attached gas piston vibrations, stamped reciever, pressed barrel, and lack of a free floated barrel. TRUE Dragunov's have an separate gas piston (SKS, Tovar, FAL, G36, AR18/180) reducing vibration and harmonics.

 

PSG1 & AR10 have free float barrels and massive barrel improvements. AR10 is the original design, AR15 and M16 were downsized. Their reliability sucks though with out serious cleaning and or improvements not to mention cost.

 

You could build a decent Rifle off a YUGO 8mm sniper receiver and all custom parts but your talking major$ but it has the most potential.

 

No mater what you do you need to either find a commercial load or better yet load you own taking into account barrel length and gas operation. Comercial ammo is great for availability but will never beat custom loads for you rifle and conditions.

 

 

Former ARMY SRT Designated Marksman -M24 118 special ball

TX ARMY/AIR National Guard State combat sniper competition -M24-118lr 1st/1st team 06, 3rd Regionals 3rd/1st team 06

(the bastards are making me transfer MY MATCH rifle to another state)

ANG DM M4 ACOG M855 ball

 

Shot Barret's and AR50's, 338 lapua and every thing but the new 408/416 calibers

 

 

private rifles

110FP 300win

700 LA 7.62 (M24 Clone)

WIN 70 super shadow 25 WSSM (as good as the 110fp)

Custom 24/47 mauser 7-08

Custom 24/47 mauser 308

Custom 24/47 mauser 260

AR10

PSl 7.62X54r

ar15-5.56

ar-15-6.8

Saiga 308 22"

 

 

 

The 24/47 mauser is an inexpensive way to build what you want. You really need to buy/build something to meet you standards AFTER you define what your standards are, then work on a load.

 

AR10's are great because you get to buy new uppers though even after new laws are passed, giving you several options. i like 308 to 800 max. 300 mag or bigger for anything past that.

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i own a saiga 308-1 22" bbl an ar15 hb match in 223 and a weatherby .30 cal bolt.i was going to try to make a inexpensive semi 308 saiganov but this platform turned out to be a superior 300 yrd c into c(cover into concealment) gun.the 223 is way more accurate but will not go thru a lot of materals.

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I'm beginning to think that maybe we're AK snobs like the AR guys are snobs.

 

I'm willing to accept that a $300 rifle will probably not be as accurate as a Match Grade M1A at $2500.

 

That being said, $2200 buys you ALOT of ammo and range time.

 

I'd rather have a 2-3MOA rifle with 1000rds of ammo, and $1800 in my pocket than a 1MOA rifle with no ammo and debt on my plastic.

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Preach it Noobie!! Preach it!! Amen and Allehluaih!

 

 

 

Although I actually agree with Azrial this time(????!!!!) , I'd really like to see a Saiga that can shoot like a rack grade M-1A or even a Match grade M-1A! Plus a rack grade M-1A has better (metal) magazines and with a fiberglass stock and metal butt plate, it can beat down doors or break skulls whereas the Saiga can't. But this is just a side note in all this,because who actually uses their rifle to do such awful things anyways? LOL!!! Plus you can't store a cleaning kit in the stock like you can with an M-1A. But my Saiga was dirt cheap compared to the M-1A and with this awful gov't becoming worse and worse....I can't afford to carry around my M-1A for fear of confiscation at some Gestapo checkpoint! (and yes they have them here in NY all the time! So much for being free!)

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......Azrial,you are making comments similar to a person who gets hung up on name brands and doesn't recognize the real thing by it's qualities rather than is label.

No sir, I am not. I am making comments like a guy that has shot a little High Power but has never ever, ever, ever, seen a Saiga dragged out of a case, much less be competitive at a match. By the way, we are now talking about putting $2000+ into a Saiga to try to make it competitive. I know a little more about rifles then which end the bullets come out.

 

I think you read a lot of advertising and commentary by infamous "Gun Yuppies" and sensationlized "sniper lore" and that I sounded like you 20+ years ago when I let a bunch of highend gear whores talk me out of my proven and reliable M1As and Garands and so that I could come up to their then shithot standards of HK battle rifles and HS Precision bolt guns wearing overpriced German glass with WW2 style reticles.

 

99% of the stuff you are putting your faith in is hype,I should have kept my match rifle before they once again made it on the "Gun Yuppie's" top ten list but I didn't so in the process of building up another M1A back in 2000 I bought an S308 and S12 and a Yunker air rifle for about half of what they cost now thinking that they would make good loners for when less experienced shooters wanted to come out and shoot on my personal range.The S12 blew me away(figuratively) and the S308 didn't fail to impress me as something that had real potential either but a lack of magazines and some crudeness had me ditching it before I could really take the time to see what it would really do but even right out of the box it was equal to a rack grade M1A or FAL accuracy wise so when the hicap mags came out I decided that doing a little experiment might be in order so I bought another one and started working the kinks out and that's why after a couple year hiatus from this board I have come back to share my factual experiences and techniques with the only people wise enough or lucky enough to be on the ground floor.

 

In 1986 nobody wanted an HK94 and you could pick one up for $450 and I bought one and I ran into people spouting the hyped up weapon dujour (the Mini Uzi and Swedish K) and only by shooting it did I ever figure out that it was a pretty decent little gun :D

 

But you are making comments like a guy with a favorite football team. You could care less how they perform in the real world. It does not bother you one bit that no one has ever been able to reproduce your claimed results in match, or most folks real world experience. You are just an AK booster! The rifle that will do it all, for less cash then every other fool is wasting on their rifle! Frankly, I am calling bullshit.

 

You don't know what you are talking about,I'm not an "AK Booster",I'm an "AK Convert" a member of a cult of gun enthusiasts that have owned and shot dozens of various weapons over the years and found them lacking over the long haul and where pleased as punch when the Russians started producing AKs with modern techniques and machinery that were comparable to western weapons for pennies on the dollar(a Russian machinist might make $20 per day instead of $20 per hour).

 

I am fooling with the Saiga because it is an extremely robust and durable weapon that has none of the warts of other similar weapons I have owned and used and I have already far exceeded it's initial purchase price just in optics and parts alone and coupled with my hicap mags will have spent every bit as much on it as I would have building another M1A or some other high end gas gun and other than the SIG SAPR(which is basically a Kalashnikov) or an FN SCAR-H I don't see anything I would trade a properly tuned and prepared S308 or VEPR 308 based on PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.Why don't you come back when you have spent 20 years wearing out a dozen weapons and observing what you are willing to accept and what you aren't instead of being a gun whore and letting "matches" determine you values for you.S12 shotguns were being laughed at when they first came out and now they are climbing the ladder in combat style shooting sports that the "Gun Yuppie" "tube gunners" and crying foul or converting to Saiga and demand hasmore than doubled their price tag.I ditched my Benelli in favor of the S12 once I was able to get a couple of 8rd mags for it and it's a matter of snobbery and reticence that kept the "gun yuppies" from realizing what was right under their noses until a few pioneering competitors RUBBED THEIR NOSES IN IT.The Saiga 308 is the same sort of animal.

 

What kind of idiot would buy an AI when a Savage can do the same thing for 1/4 the price?

 

I'll tell you what kind,a gullible little kid like yourself is exactly who these guys count on and they go do shows with the military procurement guys and wine and dine them and give the military testing kids plenty of new toys and ammo to get them hyped and then next thing you know it's the only acceptable piece of equipment in anyone's mind when it was 99% hype and 1% improvement if any..

 

 

 

But, who knows, I could be wrong! You may be the Saiga/AK master! If you can truly tweak an inexpensive Saiga .308, and presumably ever other Saiga into a competitive rifle, you have marketable skill there!

 

I'd be willing to bet you can't even shoot to the Saiga's potential as it sits or we wouldn't be having this retarded internet discussion.You need to get some trigger time and evaluate some weapons based on performance and durability and longevity and get back with me when you can actually tell the difference between a straight shooter and a bunch of hype and window dressing.Russian stuff is cheap because Russians don't get paid very much money,that same rifle to produce in the USA would be well over $1000 and once guys like you get deprogrammed from the cult of the ultra "tacticool" canned opinion they will probably become a $1000+ gun sometime after this November's election.

 

Hell in 1987 you couldn't give away a Steyr AUG or a SIG550 and now those things are the dream guns of all elite "Gun Yuppie" types

 

 

How soon can I expect to see one of your custom creations out there winning matches? That would shut me up! It would not bother me to be wrong, just show me

 

I've posted my results,techniques,data and there are even tools to rent from Dinzag or to buy from Brownell's that will allow anyone on this board to do the same modifications.I basically took the same path with my Saiga that we used to use on our DCM rifles with a good crown and proper ammo selection and viola.I'm long past the age of playing games in matches and haven't participated since the DCM was dissolved and replaced with a privatized company trying to make money off of selling tax payer purchased government surplus back to us at a 1000% profit.Beside AR15s rule the roost in match shooting now because they are accurate,light kicking and very forgiving so that even the sloppiest shooting posture will suffice when in the days of the M1A you had to have your biomechanics together totally to even finish the round.

 

Does winning a race make a corvette go any faster or is the speedometer pegging 150 as you drive it enough for you?You want results then quit whining buy a scope,tune your Saiga,buy some decent ammo and start shooting but before you do why don't you take someone with you who who can actually hit and have them shoot it and see what they have to say about it's performance and potential.

 

By the way, even though I own an M1A it is an old tuned and tweaked "picked" rack grade that could use a fresh barrel. I have had it since I was 20 years old. It will not keep up with an Ultra Match, or a lot of the big buck custom jobs. Their owners must do their part, but many times they don't, do they?

 

 

Have you ever shot a big buck custom job to tell the difference?The specs on a USGI chrome lined barrel have more variance and less consistency than the Saiga right off the bat,look down th ebore at the lumpy 1960's chrome plating then look down the bore of your modern reactor plated,mandrel formed Saiga barrel and tell me what you see;)What they call an Ultramatch now would be a frustrating,hiccuping range toy to a real high power shooter if 308 was still the competitive caliber but a rifle with headspace so tight that needs to be cleaned between stages or it will fail to go into battery is not what I would be reaching for if life and death struggle was my concern :cryss:

 

 

I have considered buying ArmaLite's AR-10 SuperSASS Rifle, but the truth is I do not shoot often enough lately, my situation has changed. The AR-10 will do out of the box what a truly custom M1A will, without glass bedding. My custom Remington 700P will out shoot it

 

However, I will be standing in line to buy a Super-Duper Match/Combat/HRT/Saiga, just as soon as I see one live up to the on-line fantasy.

 

If your Saiga won't hold under 3" right our of the box then you are the odd man out or just really can't shoot your way out of a paper bag and if it won't do better than that with a good crown and proper ammo then it must have fallen off the pallet and gotten run over by a forklift at the factory.

 

People frequently post their groups on here and there are a couple of guys on this forum who have rifles that will perform as well as mine and they didn't do any of the tuning I did so what's your bag?

 

If your afraid you won't look uber tactical enough shooting it then get good enough with it to win some bets and that shuts people up in a hurry and if your Saiga just won't come into the light accuracy wise then by all means go buy yourself an AR10T(which will put al 20 rounds in one small ragged hole at 100 yards)and quit telling people what their Saiga will or won't do because you watched some match where some guy actually managed to keep his Ultramatch running long enough to finish a stage or shot an AR10 for a whole 300 rounds without breaking his disconnector or experiencing multiple FTEs and forever grace someone else with your presence(like AR15.com possibly).

 

 

There are basic principals at work in rifle accuracy

 

Bullet Release(crown)

Chamber Consistency(headspace)

Barrel Harmonics(contour and stresses)

Squareness and Trueness

 

All of these thing are addressed when building a bolt gun and they can be addressed on a Saiga to some extent as well.One of my favorite gunsmith's final project at gunsmithing school was to build a highly accurate bolt action rifle and he was so poor that he could not afford a commercial action so he based his project on a $25 surplus Mauser receiver and proceeded to build a 1/2 MOA rifle out of it with a total project cost of under $200.It wasn't that pretty but it was the most accurate rifle produced in his class and he received special merit for it.

 

Would his $25 receivered Mauser be inferior to your Remington PSS?If yours is like mine his Mauser would surely outshoot it despite being of humble origins and that is what counts.

 

Reliability(must go bang every time you pull the trigger)

Durability(what good is accuracy if it wear out to useless in short order)

Real World Accuracy(will it consistently hit the target within your effective range)

Serviceability(can you find parts,can you install those parts yourself?)

Operating Costs(does your rifle require new parts for every case of ammo you shoot?)

 

I like my 1911s and Hipowers and shoot a little better with them but the Glock is what stays on my hip every day because it goes bang every single time and it's cheap enough to field and not cry about.I liked my M1A it has sights that couldn't be beat and was a very natural feeling weapon to me but when something that bends oprods and needs a new recoil spring every thousand rounds or it will smite it's own receiver can be effectively replaced by a rifle that will outlast it and is not a dog in the field accuracy department either costs the same as a new TRW oprod($200-$300) it's time to evaluate that situation again.

 

The SVD is in the same accuracy range as the S308 and has been effectively deployed against targets at 1000M,it's arguably the most prolific "Sniper Rifle" in the world and there lots and lots of dead people who didn't even hear the sound of the shot that killed them and that's plenty "Snipery" for my blood and skill level(and probably yours too) it just doesn't look as tacticool and that's got your mind all screwed up about this whole long range rifle thing.

 

I know a guy who is one of the winningest IDPA SSP shooters in the nation who is also a cop and one of the biggest chickenshits you ever saw and will pop a traffic stop on the radio the minute he hears the beginning of a dangerous response code so he doesn't have to show up,will muscle memory and tremendous match scores be enough to keep him alive when the SHTF?Will it matter how many matches he's won or how fancy his gear is or will a straight shooting,reliable weapon in the hands of a pragmatic and courageous man be what saves lives and does the dark deeds?

 

We already know the answer to that don't we?

Edited by SOPMOD
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Sopmod, did you add the 11 degree crown by dinzag's rental? Did it improve accuracy? I'm thinking about renting it from him. Was it easy? Hard? What cutting oil did you buy? Knife Honing oil? Did you finish the barrel with liquid "Blue" ? or what? Did you use a 45 degree brass thingy to smooth down the rifling at the crown?

 

Inquiring mind(s) want(s) to know!

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Sopmod, did you add the 11 degree crown by dinzag's rental? Did it improve accuracy? I'm thinking about renting it from him. Was it easy? Hard? What cutting oil did you buy? Knife Honing oil? Did you finish the barrel with liquid "Blue" ? or what? Did you use a 45 degree brass thingy to smooth down the rifling at the crown?

 

Inquiring mind(s) want(s) to know!

 

I bought mine before I knew that Dinzag had them for rent but it's giving me the opportunity to recrown all of my old suspect rifles at my liesure.

 

Oh,I just used WD40 for my cutting cutting oil.

Here's the 45deg chamfer

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/Pro...20BRASS%20PILOT

Here's the 11deg facing cutter(best for bare unprotected muzzles)

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/Pro...OWNING%20CUTTER

Here's the 90deg(best for use with flash hiders and brakes)

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/Pro...20BRASS%20PILOT

Brass Chamfer polishing jag/lap

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/Pro...0CROWNING%20LAP

Lapping Compound

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/Pro...ING%20COMPOUNDS

 

 

You can buy these tools once and have them for every rifle you'll ever own if you buy the brass pilots for each caliber but they are as much as a gun themselves once you get a comprehensive kit built up for yourself but it sure opens a door though.

 

So far I have the 223 and 308 brass pilots which work in all of the tools and I will probably buy them for other calibers as well eventually

 

Oh and for all of the "Gun Yuppie" doubters and trash talkers:

CIMG0721.jpg

 

I am going to get someone to come with me to the range and film this sucker in action and go to the trouble to have it hosted so you will keep all of your gunragfanboysniperwannabemythology to yourselves when you see a grown man do his business with a straight shooting rifle

Edited by SOPMOD
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SOPMOD, I was trying to have a conversation about the merits of the Saiga as a long range platform, you are trying to talk negatively about me. Your assumptions about me are ridiculous. I have shot enough high power competitively and as a Tactical LEO know what will shoot and what will not. If your accuracy with a rifle is on par with your accuracy at determining my age I doubt you could hit the broad side of a barn from the inside.

 

I also find it difficult to believe that you can access my shooting skill from the safety of your Lazyboy. I have met better riflemen, but I have met a lot worst.

 

But since we are making assumptions about one another, I think the last paragraph of your post says it all. You come across as another Walter Mitty what-to-be that hates cops or anyone else that has ever done the things you dream of. I am a man in my middle age that is at the height of his game. You seem like a loquacious prevaricator that likes to piddle in his garage after coming home from a hard day at the ladies shoe store.

 

I love your championing of the SVD! When you started getting nervous about your own ridiculous claims for the AK, you switched the conversation over to the SVD. For the record it is a very different weapon from the Saiga 7.62 x 51mm. It has a forged machined receiver as opposed to the sheet metal receiver of the Saiga. This offers far greater torsional rigidity then the Saiga, and it is still a mediocre rife.

 

The 7.62 x 54mm rimmed round of the SVD does not work well in magazines; the rifle is seldom loaded to the full 10 round capacity in the field. The long and thin barrel of the SVD is too light for serious work and over heats quickly. What to fire the best group possible with a SVD. Plan on letting the barrel cool every other round. Not optimal for a semiautomatic combat sniper rifle. I have fired the real thing, and if you can not out shoot it, you have no business calling yourself a rifleman. By the way icepicks have killed a lot of people too, but they also have little to offer as a sniping rifle.

 

No one shoots high power with a Saiga because the rifle is not competitive. Truly I doubt with all your ridiculous claims that you can re-engineer a Saiga to hold even a 2" group at 100 yards. The truth is you have no idea what you are talking about. That is the problem with the Internet, Faux Commandos and bullshitters will wax on endlessly, as long as they can type, trying to be right. The losers are the folks trying to learn something and can not figure out difference between shite and shineola.

 

So the bottom line, name one national high power match won by a Saiga? If you can not accept the fact that you have no idea what you are babbling about.

 

Have fun guys, you may make your Saiga more accurate, but you will never improve it to the point it will compete with rifles built with that intent. The idea that you can is as believable as the idea that I can re-engineer an AR-15 to be more reliable then the AK. It will never happen.

 

I retire from this thread, as it will only go downhill from here. :D

Edited by Azrial
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There's a few expensive and high quality firearms out there with stamped receivers (like those legendary HK's). It doesn't necessarily mean it's junk.

 

There's also more than a few highly touted battle rifles out there with thinner barrels as well.

 

About the Dragunov, most people who own them say they start stringing shots after 5-10 rounds. The rifle was designed to be a lightweight marksman's rifle not an assault rifle, so it's pretty pointless to knock it over that.

 

Shadowwolffe mentioned AR reliability...they are perfectly reliable...so long as you get no sand, dirt, or mud in there!

 

I always saw M1A's for what they were...essentially a modernized M1 Garand. Granted, the Garand was a great gun, in it's time.

 

Nothing is perfect, they all have their pros and cons and it's pretty pointless arguing about it. This thread seems to be continuously veering off topic.

 

I don't care about the specs or construction. Ergonomics and performance are what matter to me...as does the value (to some extent). It's all boils down to a matter of opinion, anyway.

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The picatinnyrailedmallninjatacticoolleohighpowerchampion has spoken!

 

I'd be willing to bet this turkey doesn't even own an S308 nor has ever shot one.

 

Will those of you who have scoped S308s please post remarks or pics of what your rifle will do on a good day.This retarded troll is wearing me out and nothing shuts a troll up like photo evidence.

 

 

Unless they are "special"...

Edited by SOPMOD
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So just so I understand...

 

Because some heavily modified (essentially completely rebuilt with a tuned action and refitted barrel) M1A might have won a high power match (in it's day, that is), that means that a stock version of it outshoots a saiga? My saiga routinely holds 2 inch groups, and there are more than a few posts on this board showing the proof of that. Maybe the guys at my club with M1A's are crappy shots, but I don't see them getting sub MOA groups from their $1500 toys. Most of the guys I see shooting them tend to have the $'s to throw good money after bad, and that's why I believe you see so many of them as custom guns. I sincerely doubt they are crappy shots because the same guys routinely win the military bolt gun and cast bullet competitions that we also have.

 

Not arguing that the saiga will win a high power competition, but if the average schmo needs to engage something at 400 yards the saiga would be a very decent choice. Given it's about 1/4 the price of the stock M1A that it can easily hang with, it's a decent option. No doubt the saiga design is the limiting factor in it's potential use as a high power gun, but for $300 it is, in fact, a 2 in gun (with handloads). The stock M1a is, in fact, a 2 in gun (with handloads). If I were building a dedicated long range sniper rifle, I would not choose either... I doubt the M1A has superior reliability to the saiga, but I'm sure it's no slouch in that department either.

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Has anyone tried shooting groups with the Saiga single shot with good ammo, without a magazine? I own a 21" Saiga professional conversion and a 19" Fn Fal. I have'nt shot my Saiga yet.

 

There are Fal owners that have shot very good groups going single shot, without the magazine and using good ammo. I know it defeats the use of a automatic rifle. But if accuracy is critical for one shot, why not? One shot, one great try.

 

There are shooters, that believe certain magazine styles, with some types of gas operations interfere with the accuarcy on follow up shots and grouping.

 

I used to own a Vepr 308 with a long barrel, and with open sights, average ammo, and using a magazine, I could get good 2 to 3" quick groups. I always thought with decent optics, ammo, and shooting single shot, that I could get (1)" groups or close.

 

I also owned an HK91 in the 80's and it was the same as the Vepr, as far as accuracy, utilizng a magazine.

 

Truthfully, out of the box, and all things "equal" (basic rifle model, ammo, ergonomics, sights, shooter ability) most modern auto .308s are pretty close together in the accuracy dept. Brand names, origin country of manufacturer, popularity, user perception (my gun is the best), and price; are all worthless factors for rifle selection. Pick the right style of rifle for the job.

Edited by warchildindy
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i have a stock 22" saiga 308 with a 3x9 40mm seals scope( http://www.visionnetweb.com/products/seals...-9X40E%20BM.htm ),i spent about $200 in ammo to find 2 brands that my weapon likes best hornady interlock 168gr BTHP molly , and fed power shok 150gr SP. both shoot what i say is 1" grps, all 3 rnd of each grp are well inside a 1" square the bullets didnt touch the lines they are well inside 1" useing a bench supported @100yrds. wish i had pics to show and knew how to post pics. im very pleased with it. after i got it where i wanted i started working on free hand shooting set the scope to 3,to get rdy for hunting by shooting coke cans @50yrds which was easy. i'm wondering if i crowned it if i could do better? but that same day there was a guy there with an AR with a scope and bull barrel and he was putting bullets on top of bullets @100yrds.but im still happy with what i got you cant beat it for the price, now if they get up to $500 then i might start looking else where.

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-SOPMOD: Good job! I've yet to shoot my Saigas with the results that you have,but I'm still trying. I can and have shot 450's with my rack grade M-1A at DCM matches,but nowheres close with my 16" Saigas with their crummy, crude third world sights. The Saiga's mags don't hold up well under the heavy use in defensive carbine matches where mag changes under stress are required. These are my observations from mine and many others using Saigas hard. The guns hold up well, but the plastic mags suck after so many uses. This can changed with some company who will step up and give the customer what they want rather what they decide we need.

 

-You're 100% about the gearwhores and gun writers though. I've already stated my opinoin on those.

 

-On the Saiga 12...the best and most reliable(and ugliest!) shotgun ever made...bar none! I had one that I used in matches and to shoot skeet with(much to the consternation of my competitors!) and fired over 5000 rds through it without cleaning to see if it would hold up....It passed with flying colors...although it was a bitch to clean afterwards!

 

-Ar-10's...I've yet to see one work reliably or get through any type of match without somekind of problem.....although they are very accurate!

 

-The other gearwhore and gunwriter weapons of the week! I've been doing this since the early seventies and have had many samples of every weapon imported to this country and after reading all the hype and spending tons of money on weapons and ammo to test each one....not many were worthy of their hype. They were just different from what we had and so many writers praised them like a man would by going abroad and meeting a different speaking woman! But in the end they were just women like any other with all the same problems! You're right about many of the weapons back then that couldn't be given away(no mags or spare parts!) until the 1986 REAGAN GUN BAN went into effect! (Yes Reagan!). Then all of a sudden they became sexy again! Then the gunwriters started praising everything that so and so commando group used or so and so SWAT team used and then every one had to have one. Just like the latest 45 of the week that cost over $2000 but isn't nearly as reliable as a Glock out of the box!

 

-Saiga 308's: I wish they would put decent peep sights on them and make decent mags for them and make spare parts more avalible!!! Then they would start taking over the spots held by these other weapons for years! I could care less what the gun- yuppies or the gear whores say as long as I can out shoot them or repair my weapon without much trouble chasing spare parts!

\

 

Hopefully someday I'll have as much success as you have with my Saigas.....until then I'll continue to test and to try!

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-SOPMOD: Good job! I've yet to shoot my Saigas with the results that you have,but I'm still trying. I can and have shot 450's with my rack grade M-1A at DCM matches,but nowheres close with my 16" Saigas with their crummy, crude third world sights. The Saiga's mags don't hold up well under the heavy use in defensive carbine matches where mag changes under stress are required. These are my observations from mine and many others using Saigas hard. The guns hold up well, but the plastic mags suck after so many uses. This can changed with some company who will step up and give the customer what they want rather what they decide we need.

 

-You're 100% about the gearwhores and gun writers though. I've already stated my opinoin on those.

 

-On the Saiga 12...the best and most reliable(and ugliest!) shotgun ever made...bar none! I had one that I used in matches and to shoot skeet with(much to the consternation of my competitors!) and fired over 5000 rds through it without cleaning to see if it would hold up....It passed with flying colors...although it was a bitch to clean afterwards!

 

-Ar-10's...I've yet to see one work reliably or get through any type of match without somekind of problem.....although they are very accurate!

 

-The other gearwhore and gunwriter weapons of the week! I've been doing this since the early seventies and have had many samples of every weapon imported to this country and after reading all the hype and spending tons of money on weapons and ammo to test each one....not many were worthy of their hype. They were just different from what we had and so many writers praised them like a man would by going abroad and meeting a different speaking woman! But in the end they were just women like any other with all the same problems! You're right about many of the weapons back then that couldn't be given away(no mags or spare parts!) until the 1986 REAGAN GUN BAN went into effect! (Yes Reagan!). Then all of a sudden they became sexy again! Then the gunwriters started praising everything that so and so commando group used or so and so SWAT team used and then every one had to have one. Just like the latest 45 of the week that cost over $2000 but isn't nearly as reliable as a Glock out of the box!

 

-Saiga 308's: I wish they would put decent peep sights on them and make decent mags for them and make spare parts more avalible!!! Then they would start taking over the spots held by these other weapons for years! I could care less what the gun- yuppies or the gear whores say as long as I can out shoot them or repair my weapon without much trouble chasing spare parts!

\

 

Hopefully someday I'll have as much success as you have with my Saigas.....until then I'll continue to test and to try!

 

 

I used to dream of getting lasic and going back and building up my lifetime score for "Distinguished Rifle" and if I went to that much trouble I don't know if the Saiga would be my dream gun because it starts to wander after about 10 rounds if I don't let it cool down enough but as far as starting off with a cold gun and taking a few critical shots at 400-700m it's starting to "get there" but only with the use of an optic.

 

Bossman has figured out a novel little peep sight adapted from a Williams WGRS originally intended for a TC MUzzle Loader(he thinks)?

43630007-5.jpg

and if you could build the resting points for the top cover and could get the front hood super tight and consistently centered that might be just the trick for a decent set of sights on an Saiga.

 

The guns are cheap enough that I just bought a whole demilled gun from one of our board members here and now I'm in business for spares(including spare barrel,bolt,trunnion,spring,top cover,etc) so that doesn't worry me.

 

Maybe sending the whole thing off for cryo treatment would solve the wandering that occurs when the gun heats up.I know it wasn't bored cockeyed since it wasn't really bored at all but hammered on a mandrel so it's true original state before assembly was perfectly straight.So any stresses that come out when it get's hot must have been added in assembly or shipping and either extreme heat or extreme cold(temperature change)is what will release those kinds of stresses.

 

 

 

Are all of your barrel accessories TDC?Is your crown good?Is your gas piston original or did you fit a US made one and let the TDC aligned gas block determine your final fit with some locktite?

 

When they make Galil SR-99 sniper rifles these are all areas that get attention but they will thrown any Kalashnikov based weapon waaaaaay off when things get rolling.

 

Empirical accuracy can only be determined with a mechanical rest so some aluminum blocks with divots relieved for the trunnion rivets and a nice heavy vice clamped to a range table will give you your baseline of accuracy and you can go from there.

 

Aligning your rear sight base,gas block will improve barrel harmonics and keep your gas piston from tweaking your barrel off of center when the gas piston comes to rest more to one side that another. and front sight base can affect sighting of course but less commonly known if it's tendency to leverage weight at the very end of the barrel causing uneven barrel whip so it too must be perfectly TDC or you will never realize the gun's true potential.Align your barrel accessories TDC,scribe the center points at 12 or 6 o'clock and have the pins redrilled on a milling machine for slightly larger pins or taper pins and you could shave 1/2 MOA from your groups for a modification that will scarcely cost you $25(even less if you have access to a milling machine yourself).

 

Crowning the barrel is the next step but even if you don't crown the barrel the front sight base encapsulates the muzzle and is most assuredly impacting the bullet release with it's crude case bezel.I'd bet that just trimming that encapsulating bezel off and maybe moving the front sight base back would clean up the release of the bullet as it and it's gases exist the muzzle and that is basically a "free" modification.

 

Matching your rounds to the chamber and barrel twist is another area that probably needs.The S308 has a loose twist barrel for a 308 and the fact that many keep having a margin of success with heavy bullets really surprises me with a twist somewhere between 1 in 12 to 1 in 13 inches.This thing should really thrive on 150gr or lighter bullets and my best groups have been with 147gr reloads a friend made from NATO brass with 308 Winchester pressures on a 147gr boat tail ball projectile(I don't know what powder my buddy used but these things were HOT!!!).

 

Question,why in the hell is a 7.62x39 AK 1 in 10 for a 123gr bullet and a 308 AK is almost 1 in 13 for much heavier bullets? The 7.62x39 AK has a twist that would be perfect for 175gr bullets(I wish the S308 did too).

 

The Saiga isn't the end all be all but it definitely has more going for it than a lot of whizzbang $2000+ rifles(like going bang everytime you pull the trigger for one thing) so that leaves plenty of money for improvement and experimentation(and ammo!!).

Edited by SOPMOD
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  • 6 months later...

Oh and for all of the "Gun Yuppie" doubters and trash talkers:

CIMG0721.jpg

 

I am going to get someone to come with me to the range and film this sucker in action and go to the trouble to have it hosted so you will keep all of your gunragfanboysniperwannabemythology to yourselves when you see a grown man do his business with a straight shooting rifle

 

What was the distance to target here?

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I have a dpmsLR 24" fluted barrel shoots raged hole at 1oo yd with 168 Tap amax red tip MY psl with 4x scope and 7np russian same distance 1.5 inches

I converted a s308 16" for a friend of mine 168 tap amax red tip he gets 2" with 6x psop

BUT THEY ALL KILL DEER AND COYOTE. EVEN SEEN HIM SHOOT A COYOTE 350ISH YRDS 1 SHOT IT ALL DEPENDS ON HOW LONG YOU SPEND LEARNING YOUR OWN CAPABILITIES WITH WHAT EVER YOU PURCHASE . IN MY FRIENDS CASE HE WANTED A DPMS BUT INSTEAD HE LISTENED TOO ME FOR ONCE AND PURCHASED GUN, AND SCOPE FOR $375 FROM ANOTHER FRIEND ,US MADE CONVERSION PARTS AND A ASSLOAD OF GOOD AMMO FOR RUFFLY HALF OF THE GOING RATE FOR A DPMSLR . BUY THE SAIGA CONVERT IT FEED IT GOOD AMMO. DON'T LISTEN TO ANY ONE THAT SAYS YOU NEED A $2000+ RIFLE JUST SPEND WHAT YOU CAN AND PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE :devil:

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I have a Savage bolt gun in win 300 mag with a Lupi 3x9x40 If your thinking snipper type gun think of bolt gun with enough power to get out there,

the .308 is great but when I think of long distance it's past seven hundred meters. the drop on a 308 at 1000 meters is about 5 moa about 37 feet acording to the charts.

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