WillS 0 Posted December 13, 2007 Report Share Posted December 13, 2007 Hi everyone. I am a new owner of a new Saiga 20. I've been lurking these forums for a few weeks now and have learned alot. Thanks everyone ahead of time for what I learned so far... Well, I tried out the new Saiga at the range and came away kind of disappointed. Like others I've read here who had the same problem, the rounds failed to cycle, and I had a hell of a time trying to get the shell out when it jammed inside the gun. I made just 5 attempts to fire the thing, two fires with one successful cycle and one jam, and the other three shots the gun just went *click* and didnt fire at all leaving me holding the gun pointed down range wondering if I had a delayed fire. I basically gave up after that and went back to shooting the glock. It wasn't until I disassemble the gun when I noticed something weird about the firing pin. If I push the back of the firing pin housing where the hammer strikes I noticed that that firing pin doesn't protude on the other end at all, basically it moves foward but the front tip of the pin doesn't stick out of the hole. Is this normal? Is the pin supposed to kind of jump out of that hole for a split second the hammmer hits it then retract back? I think this is why I had the gun didnt fire before, the firing pin wasn't striking. Do I need to get a slightly longer firing pin, and if so, how do you get it out of that housing? It doesn't look like there is a way to extract it that I can see. Forgive my lack of knowledge about this, I am still learning about how this gun works... Regards, Will. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted December 13, 2007 Report Share Posted December 13, 2007 (edited) Yeh, the firing pin should protrude about 1/16th of an inch abouts when pushed forward. are you sure the firing pin is clear of debris first? blast up into the firing pin channel with some WD40 and see if anything comes out, and reoil it if crap comes out and you can get it to move forward fully. if not, take your drift tool, and holding your hand over the hammer end of the firing pin (if yours pin has a spring in it), you will see two pins in the bolt. one is for the extractor, one is the firing pin's. You bolt should have a seril # on it. THAT lug there is where the EXTRACTOR pin is. you want the OTHER pin. you should tap the pin out from the small end, while holidng your palm over the hammer end of the firing pin, to keep it from shooting across the room when you drift the pin out, and remove the drift tool. I would clean out the firing pin chamber and the spring and all that fun stuff, reassemble it, and see if you can get it to protrude after doing that first. Edited December 13, 2007 by Bvamp Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WillS 0 Posted December 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2007 Yeh, the firing pin should protrude about 1/16th of an inch abouts when pushed forward. are you sure the firing pin is clear of debris first? blast up into the firing pin channel with some WD40 and see if anything comes out, and reoil it if crap comes out and you can get it to move forward fully. I'm pretty certain that nothing is blocking it, I can push the firing pin freely from the back of the housing, can even push a bit of my finger into it, but the pin doesn't protrude at all. I just didn't know if it was designed to be that way, if perhaps the pin is supposed to "jump" when impacted by the hammer. I guess now that you confirmed the pin is too short, my option now is somehow get a new longer pin in the housing. The pin doesn't look like it chipped or anything, a manufacturing defect perhaps? The gun is brand new. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted December 13, 2007 Report Share Posted December 13, 2007 (edited) can you remove the firing pin as per my instructions above and take a photograph of it if you clear the pin channel out and nothing is in there? the pin should have a rounded end on it. It should also protrude from the bolt face even at flush at the hammer end. Sounds like a broken pin to me. Call RAA tomorrow morning and have them send you a new firing pin if you just bought teh damned thing and you are sure it is NEW. an easy way to tell if the gun has been fired in the saiga's case, is this: look at the reciever on the serial number side with the serial # facing you. to the right of the serial number, there is a point where the bolt contacts the reciever. a fired gun will have worn paint on it, altought you said it went off once for you?? Edited December 13, 2007 by Bvamp Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted December 13, 2007 Report Share Posted December 13, 2007 you have to watch it when I respond to a post. I edit heavily. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WillS 0 Posted December 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2007 you have to watch it when I respond to a post. I edit heavily. LOL, no problem I appreciate your reply and your help. I will follow your instructions and get pics up for benefit of others who will read this thread if they need it. My camera is stuck at my gf's moms house pretty far away and I probably wont get it back until after christmas, I will scrounge a cheap camera up somewhere and get pics up. Thanks for all the great info. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted December 13, 2007 Report Share Posted December 13, 2007 the pin's business end should sit just under flush with the bolt face without pressure on it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WillS 0 Posted December 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2007 (edited) Here are the pics Edited December 16, 2007 by WillS Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WillS 0 Posted December 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2007 OK, I am sorry for the quality of the pictures. I know these pics are fairly crappy, they were all taken with an old cell phone in lieu of my great camera which I wont be getting back until after Christmas..... Pic 1: Here I am showing the housing of the firing pin. When this pic was taken, I had the blunt, flat end of my punch pressing against the firing pin on the hammer side of the firing pin, as you can see the firing pin does not protude at all. Pic 2: This is for the benefit of thread readers, I am pointing my pen to the hole where you use the punch or drift tool to know the pin out, as was given by Bvamp's instruction. It came out much easier than I thought, it was no problem at all. You'll need a 1.6 mm or 1/16 punch to get that small pin out. Pic 3: Here I am lightly tapping out the pin using the form instructed by bvamp. Pic 4: Here's the firing pin removed from the housing. I've it out in the order from top to bottom. The top is the pin I just tapped out, below that is the hammer side of the firing pin (long) and a separate smaller piece of the firing pin within a spring. At the bottom are two parts of the housing as they look separated. The firing pin(s) are laid out just as they would be in the housing. The two parts of the firing pin don't look broken from each other, it looks it was machined to be that that way. It appears that when the hammer hits the long part of the firing pin it in turn strikes the smaller one, which in turn strikes the shell. There was slight gunk within the housing and firing pin (cosmoline?) which I will clean up. Pic 5 and Pic 6:. The tape measure and the pin are actually perfectly lined up, it's just that camera took the picture at an angle and the tape measure wont go completely flat on the table so it looks a bit off. The actual measurement of the long part of the firing pin is exactly 2 and 3/4 inch. The short one is 1 and 2/16 of an inch. If the firing pin is supposed to protude out of the hole when being pushed by a flat object on the hammer side, it does look like the pin, either the long or short one, was manufactured too short Quote Link to post Share on other sites
violiv 0 Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 It is normal for Saiga that the pin do not protude out of the hole when being pushed on the hammer side. Only with the bolt in place and completely close - this is an automatic safety against firing whitout the bolt completely close. The two parts of the firing pin ar made lake this. The front piece of the bolt don't rotate, only the rear part of the bolt rotate and asure the lock. I think that is a problem whit the closure. Tri to verify the rear piece of the bolt, the nuts and the corespondent parts on the barrel. Sory for my enghlish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 my S-12 doesn't protrude when I push the firing pin either and just sits about flush with the bolt face. but I havn't had any problems with it. What kind of ammo were you using? Maybe it was shit ammo. just a thought. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WillS 0 Posted December 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 It is normal for Saiga that the pin do not protude out of the hole when being pushed on the hammer side. Only with the bolt in place and completely close - this is an automatic safety against firing whitout the bolt completely close. The two parts of the firing pin ar made lake this. The front piece of the bolt don't rotate, only the rear part of the bolt rotate and asure the lock. I think that is a problem whit the closure. Tri to verify the rear piece of the bolt, the nuts and the corespondent parts on the barrel. Sory for my enghlish Ah, that helps clarify it. Very good. This whole time I thought something was screwy with the firing pin, but if it is supposed to sit flush like that then my bad. I just got thrown off because of the dead fires I had with the gun, it is probably true the ammo was crap. I bought the ammo at the gun range, and they probably dont have the right kind. I will check what you suggest... Regards, Will Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 Try some Buckshot or highbrass on 1 setting. then go to setting 2. I'm just worried that you'll get to building a new firing pin when it's just that you're using low-recoil ammo or something else. Now that doesn't explain the failure to FIRE unless the firing pin couldn't reach because the ammo was recessed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WillS 0 Posted March 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Well, it's been a while since I posted in here, I just wanted to let you guys know the gun works great now. I finally managed to get myself to the range, and wanted to give the s-20 another chance since getting the firing pin and housing clean up. Man it was fun! I shot a couple of cheap walmart bulk sport loads with the setting on 2 and the gun cycle flawlessly. No dead fires, no stovepipes, I was quite happy about that. I then set it to 1 and loaded up with 3 inch Winchester steel shot, and when I fired, wow! Granted I am completely new to shotguns so this is was quite an experience. Like a cannon! I am really glad I got a 20 gauge and not a 12, because this gun was pushing my limits. Maybe just need some getting used to. After that, shooting the glock was like firing a pea shooter. Needless to say, this experience was quite a bit more positive than the last one. Out of curiousity, I left the setting on 1 and put the 2 3/4 cheap sport shot back in and fired. Lo and behold, the stovepipes and jams came right back. Note to self: cheap walmart sport shot setttings go on 2. Hi Velocity Winchester steel shot goes on 1. Thanks everybody for your help! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 I found that I had to "break in" mine... for a long time it would stovepipe a round... I ended up using it in a trap league, where you load one shell at a time, and that did the trick to break it in... the stovepiping was even a blessing, as it didnt spit out a spent shell at the guy in the next shooting station! now it will shoot anything, no hang ups, no stovepipes... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gtnichols 51 Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 Wills, get your self an avitar! My saiga 12 is the same way, I noticed then firing pin, when fully depressed, does not stick out past the end of the whachtyamacallit. I guessed that the weight and momentum of the trigger action and firing pin together would activate the primer and cause the shell to fire. i was right!!, it has always, always worked. Look on your spent shells for the pin emboss print I have noticed they are more shallow on high powered shells and deeper on Light loads. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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