Rustynuts 3 Posted December 23, 2007 Report Share Posted December 23, 2007 Was at a local dealer who had an S-12 (too high, so I didn't buy) and they were maintaining that you could slap a 10-rd mag and go to town. None of the restricting laws apply!? I was arguing with them that anything over 5 made them technically illegal, but they kept saying the law was not passed yet? What gives! Even the threads in the 922r section are a little vague as to whether it's 100% required (what is "sporting" or not). Is everyone just doing the conversion to be 100% sure, or is it really the letter of the law? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted December 23, 2007 Report Share Posted December 23, 2007 Your dealer just wants to make a sale. Since he's not assembling them in his shop, he's not liable for violating the law, no matter what he says. Unfortunately, there are quite a few 'gun dealers' who make up their own laws and attribute them to the feds.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lammy 1 Posted December 23, 2007 Report Share Posted December 23, 2007 Was at a local dealer who had an S-12 (too high, so I didn't buy) and they were maintaining that you could slap a 10-rd mag and go to town. None of the restricting laws apply!? I was arguing with them that anything over 5 made them technically illegal, but they kept saying the law was not passed yet? What gives! Even the threads in the 922r section are a little vague as to whether it's 100% required (what is "sporting" or not). Is everyone just doing the conversion to be 100% sure, or is it really the letter of the law? Excuse my ignorance, as I'm comming from the AK rifle world, but why would you be non compliant with a mag over 5rnds? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted December 23, 2007 Report Share Posted December 23, 2007 Excuse my ignorance, as I'm comming from the AK rifle world, but why would you be non compliant with a mag over 5rnds? Shotguns have their own level of "evil" and "sporting". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted December 23, 2007 Report Share Posted December 23, 2007 its an imported semi-auto shotgun. 922r applies to it, however I dont know in the case of the US made AGP mags, if a stock s12 needs to be parted out.... Im not the one to ask, actually, and Im not going to give you an answer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted December 23, 2007 Report Share Posted December 23, 2007 It depends on which parts count list you go by. One ATF letter showed the S-12 having a parts count of 13, making it compliant with the 3 US parts of an AGP mag. I don't count parts the same way. My count leads up to 15 or 16 depending on muzzle attachment, including thread protector. But that's me. Some even consider the disc in front of the piston to be an op rod, bringing the possible count to 17. The dealer is getting 922R, which is law, confused with HR1022, which is pretty much stalled in congress. HR1022 bans Saigas by name, along with the M1 Garand and Ruger 10-22. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted December 23, 2007 Report Share Posted December 23, 2007 and thats why I cant give you a straight answer, either. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lammy 1 Posted December 23, 2007 Report Share Posted December 23, 2007 If 922r applies to this weapon before adding 6+ mag, then there would already be US parts on it right? So I gather it's a sporting firearm if there is a mag with 5 or less rounds. If you have a higher cap mag, then it's non sporting and becomes more or less an assembled kit? My head hurts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted December 23, 2007 Report Share Posted December 23, 2007 welcome to our world Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rustynuts 3 Posted December 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2007 (edited) Another brain burster - if 1022 becomes law, is a modified with US parts Saiga still a Saiga? Or does it become some sort of kit gun? Edited December 23, 2007 by Rustynuts Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted December 23, 2007 Report Share Posted December 23, 2007 There's a whole section on the 922r tacked above if you want to do better research. Here's my interpretation. The shotgun MAY be non sporting in the eyes of the atf if you add a mag of > 5 rounds, but it won't matter, as when you add an AMERICAN made 10 rounder, you have replaced enough parts to bring you into compliance. As for what parts are in affect, there is a scan of a letter from the ATF answering this that is famous on the internet, I'm sure it's referenced above, if not search on "soupbowl" and it will pop up. I don't believe the op arm argument that BRG3 mentions as it would be in that letter, but his comment on the muzzle is the only real sticky issue (IMO). I've never seen definitive list or description of what a muzzle device is. I've read that they were flash suppressors or bbl extensions, and NOT chokes or brakes, but if you want to be more careful you should count it IF you have a threaded bbl. Anyways, they aren't mentioned in the ATF letter, but the sample they were speaking of may NOT have had a threaded bbl. If you want to play it careful and if the bbl is threaded you could buy a gas piston from Tromix for $30 and call it good, or replace the handguard with an american made rail solution if you like a $250 fix. To the group, sorry to rehash all of this, but it's been a while since the question arose. Short answer: Gun store guy is right, because the mags replace the parts, but wrong because the laws are already in the books ... NOTE, DON'T do this with factory 8 round mags, no parts are american made and this argument doesn't work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tman2007sc 0 Posted December 23, 2007 Report Share Posted December 23, 2007 (edited) Edited December 23, 2007 by tman2007sc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted December 23, 2007 Report Share Posted December 23, 2007 According to the parts count on the Saiga shotguns, my interpretation is if you put a US made mag in there >5 rds it does not make it non compliant. With the three US parts in the mag, the gun has a total of 10 imported parts from the list. A thread protector is NOT a muzzle brake or flash hider and those are the only things besides cans that I consider a "muzzle attachment". If you are worried about it unscrew it and scrww on a US made FH or something. Or just silver solder the thread protector on. Take the ten rd mag out and your weapon still has only 10 imported parts. Just don't plug a factory 8 rdr in there. Not really sure about drums... I don't know if a drum has a "floorlate" really, just a body and a follower (actually a dummy round) Mike's has a removable back cover, but the WM definitely does not. The best way to be sure is just convert the damned thing and do it right so you don't have to depend on mags for compliance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted December 23, 2007 Report Share Posted December 23, 2007 The best way to be sure is just convert the damned thing and do it right so you don't have to depend on mags for compliance. +1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Etek 32 Posted December 24, 2007 Report Share Posted December 24, 2007 Don't forget the "Readibly convertable" clause. "Readibly convertable" means can a person bring it into (or out of) compliance in 8 hours or less. This is the timestamp the BATFE uses when it looks at a semi-auto so far as its convertability to a full-auto so I see no difference when it comes to 922r. But I'm not a lawyer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted December 24, 2007 Report Share Posted December 24, 2007 Don't forget the "Readibly convertable" clause. "Readibly convertable" means can a person bring it into (or out of) compliance in 8 hours or less. This is the timestamp the BATFE uses when it looks at a semi-auto so far as its convertability to a full-auto so I see no difference when it comes to 922r. But I'm not a lawyer. You've just banned every gun in the land. Thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted December 24, 2007 Report Share Posted December 24, 2007 Don't forget the "Readibly convertable" clause. "Readibly convertable" means can a person bring it into (or out of) compliance in 8 hours or less. This is the timestamp the BATFE uses when it looks at a semi-auto so far as its convertability to a full-auto so I see no difference when it comes to 922r. But I'm not a lawyer. You've just banned every gun in the land. Thanks. ...and every foot long section of muffler pipe Quote Link to post Share on other sites
akdog 3 Posted December 24, 2007 Report Share Posted December 24, 2007 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
98_1LE 0 Posted December 24, 2007 Report Share Posted December 24, 2007 I guess I missed something. I was under the impression that the evil limit was 10 anyway, so even putting an APG mag in a stock Saiga-12 would be at the limit, not over it. Saiga rifles come with a 10-round mag; why would the shotty by any different? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted December 25, 2007 Report Share Posted December 25, 2007 I guess I missed something. I was under the impression that the evil limit was 10 anyway, so even putting an APG mag in a stock Saiga-12 would be at the limit, not over it. Saiga rifles come with a 10-round mag; why would the shotty by any different? Because a shotgun isn't a rifle, and for shotguns, EVIL BEGINS AT 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted December 25, 2007 Report Share Posted December 25, 2007 Not really sure about drums... I don't know if a drum has a "floorlate" really, just a body and a follower (actually a dummy round) Mike's has a removable back cover, but the WM definitely does not. Cobra, Think about it this way. It definitely doesn't have a foriegn mag body, follower or floor plate when any US manufactured mag/drum is used, so it doesn't go into the count. I used to try to do it as parts subtraction from the list, but it is actually easier (at least for me) to ADD the foriegn parts. But a huge +1 on the conversion. Unless you have a real reason to not (some state law?) this should be a "no brainer"! Shotguns cannot be imported with magazines that exceed 5 shells. And Saiga shotguns can not be imported in a pistol grip configuration. Just pointing out that plugging in a russian 8 round mag into a sporter, or converting a sporter to a pistol grip config + 5 round russian mags both require 922r compliance ... and so your shotgun should not have more than 10 foriegn parts from the list if you chose to do so.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Etek 32 Posted December 25, 2007 Report Share Posted December 25, 2007 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted December 27, 2007 Report Share Posted December 27, 2007 Etek, while I agree in principle, I don't want to ever go through the proceedings so I'll try to stay 922r compliant to the best of my abilities and understanding of the law. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Etek 32 Posted December 27, 2007 Report Share Posted December 27, 2007 Etek, while I agree in principle, I don't want to ever go through the proceedings so I'll try to stay 922r compliant to the best of my abilities and understanding of the law. So do I. But I think the law actually means that Manufacturers (The only folks the BATFE controls so far as parts on a firearm that is for sale) cannot use more than 10 non US parts. Think of it this way. You buy a Star or Astra or Bersa pistol. By law it must have certain features to be importable. You buy it and really hate the thumb-rest grips because you're a Southpaw so you put US grips on it and put a different rear sight on it because the screw fell out of the adjuster. Are you now a criminal for violating the Gun Control Act of 1968? I think not! 922r has folks with their collective panties all wadded up because they still confuse it with the 1994 'Assault Weapons Ban' which expressly prohibited certain 'evil features'. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Etek 32 Posted December 30, 2007 Report Share Posted December 30, 2007 No rebuttal? Hmmmmm...... I guess I'm right then. Seriously guys the law says 'Assemble' not a word about replacement parts. Now if you're building an AK from a kit then 922r 'Might' apply. But we're talking about replacing parts are we not? Let that sink in. Can you buy a replacement buttstock for a Saiga? Sure, but it's Russian and it's a folder. Then the trigger hook snaps so you put in a nice crisp Yugo part. You're just replacing a part. Do you really think the BATFE gives a rat's ass about how many of whatever origin the parts in your NON FULL AUTO or SHORT BARRELED gun has? BTW, short barreled and full auto guns need no US parts no matter who you ask. Or pistols for that matter. For pistols the GCA of 68 still apparently applies but I've never seen a group of guys get their thongs all wadded up over replacing parts on a imported pistol. Once a firearm is in your hands you can do whatever you want but don't cut a longarm barrel or make a full auto. These are specifically prohibited. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Oldone3 0 Posted December 30, 2007 Report Share Posted December 30, 2007 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted December 30, 2007 Report Share Posted December 30, 2007 I really wish all you guys would quit writing the BATF and asking for rulings! They are a regulatory agency and as such will only wind up giving us more regulations. I am also a ham and we learned years ago not to constantly ask the FCC for opinions and rulings. Please do not learn this lesson for all gun owners the hard way. I am sure that most of you are well meaning. However, how would you like to be the jackass whose name is spread all over the Internet by asking for a new opinion that ends up hurting our rights and hobby? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
akdog 3 Posted December 30, 2007 Report Share Posted December 30, 2007 Once a firearm is in your hands you can do whatever you want but don't cut a longarm barrel or make a full auto. These are specifically prohibited. You have much to learn grasshopper. Search out the multitude of 922r related tech branch letters all over the gun boards for the past 7 years. Assembly to the ATF means configuring/modifying. Snapping in a magazine alone also constitutes assembling. Any time you connect parts together, they see this as assembly. According to their official interpretation, you can't legally assemble/configure a non-importable version of a semiautomatic rifle/shotgun using more than 10 foreign parts based on the list. The law does not exempt you. We can all argue about the unconstitutionality of all these stupid laws, but that does not make them disappear. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Etek 32 Posted December 30, 2007 Report Share Posted December 30, 2007 OK, Cite case law. Until then it's just opinion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HateTheSnow 29 Posted December 30, 2007 Report Share Posted December 30, 2007 OK, Cite case law.Until then it's just opinion. There's nothing wrong with your interpretation of 922r. The problem is that when enough folks ask for direction from the govt, they eventually get it...and it's usually not the answer they were looking for. Furthermore, if a particular industry can successfully regulate itself, the govt usually stays off to the side. That's why folks here get so ticked off at the non-compliant guns put up on gunbroker and other sites. Case in point, look at the SCUBA industry. It's totally self-regulated with it's own rules, certifications, standards, etc that 99% of the people adhere to. Just like with firearms, there is an inherent risk with the sport, but these folks took the initiative to address the issues so the govt never had to...and they never did. Food for thought. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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