Filing down the "ring" on the bolt face...?

[JK-47 33]

My .223 has a raised "ring" on the bolt face arround the firing pin hole. It seems to be designed to be just a bit larger than the primer, its presence there on the bolt face results in a "crimp" around the primer of fired brass. the topic is touched on briefly here. Is there any harm in removing this ring? I believe I read elsewhere that it is annother Russian gun control measure, that they don't want Russian citizzens reloading so the gov't can keep better track of ammunition; hence the annoying crimp arround the primer pocket. So here in the USA, is there any reason not to remove that feature? could I chuck a dremel sized grinding stone in the drill press and remove it ?

[BlackDog 1]

I ground mine flush with a dremel. Simply because I reload and that wasting of smashed brass bothered me. I'm that cheap. I'm no gunsmith either,,,.

I ground the pin just below the face. I was getting occasional double taps/slam fires with reloads.

She doesn't shoot the 5.56 ammo consistently, it seems like the primer is dented enough but no fire. Does 5.56 spec have hardened primers?? It consistently shoots the 223 recipe reloads with small rifle primers, but not "factory 5.56" ammo consistently.

I seemed to have gained the ability to reload for it, but lost the ability to shoot 5.56 consistently.

Edited December 29, 2007 by BlackDog

[JK-47 33]

is it possible when you ground down the firing pin you changed the shape of the tip? I know the surface area of the point of a firing pin has a lot to do with wether or not the primer goes bang or not; or possibly you removed just a hair too much length from the firing pin? Mil spec and russian ammo traditionaly have harder primers than commercial ammo and reloading components.

[BlackDog 1]

Over the weekend, I modified a dremel stone, making it a little smaller to fit into the bolt face, and smoothed the face of the bolt making it much flatter. I had used a small spherical cutter before and the bolt face was pretty uneven.

 

The 4 casing on the left are M193 misfires that didn't go off and the 3 on the right show the pin depth AFTER I reground the bolt smoother. It looks deep enough now. I haven't gotten a chance to see if some M193 shoots consistently since I reground it again. But I will.

 

I don't like shooting the M193 from my Saiga. It sounds way to hot and sort of scares me. I use the m193 mostly in my mini14 since I know the mini is 5.56 rated and safe. I have about 2000 .223 reloads I can shoot in my Saiga anyhow. Since I can reload 223 much cheaper than I can buy it for now,

[7.62x51 0]

It looks like your lost your rounded profile on your firing pin.

 

Did you remove the pin to modify your bolt face? If so How?

 

I am sure that this bolt face deformity is an attempt at making handloading as difficult as possible. Seems like the obvious thing to do in the Russian system.

 

 

Over the weekend, I modified a dremel stone, making it a little smaller to fit into the bolt face, and smoothed the face of the bolt making it much flatter. I had used a small spherical cutter before and the bolt face was pretty uneven.

 

The 4 casing on the left are M193 misfires that didn't go off and the 3 on the right show the pin depth AFTER I reground the bolt smoother. It looks deep enough now. I haven't gotten a chance to see if some M193 shoots consistently since I reground it again. But I will.

 

I don't like shooting the M193 from my Saiga. It sounds way to hot and sort of scares me. I use the m193 mostly in my mini14 since I know the mini is 5.56 rated and safe. I have about 2000 .223 reloads I can shoot in my Saiga anyhow. Since I can reload 223 much cheaper than I can buy it for now,

[Abominable_Hillbilly 0]

Pardon my ignorance here. I too would be interested in not trashing good brass. But what about headspace? Will this grinding the ring flush not affect that?

[BlackDog 1]

It looks like your lost your rounded profile on your firing pin.

 

Did you remove the pin to modify your bolt face? If so How?

 

I am sure that this bolt face deformity is an attempt at making handloading as difficult as possible. Seems like the obvious thing to do in the Russian system.

 

I didn't remove the pin. I pulled on it with some needle nose pliers (from the backside) but couldn't get it to come out so I just left it.

The pin does seem like it has some extra space in their to move around near the bolt face. I don't know what to make of that.

 

Pardon my ignorance here. I too would be interested in not trashing good brass. But what about headspace? Will this grinding the ring flush not affect that?

 

I didn't think so, because the outside of the brass still contacts the same area on the bolt face. My attempt was to stop that dimple from smashing the brass around the primer.

 

Hopefully I will get out Sunday to see if the M193 works consistently. I'm thinking its not going to. I pulled some bullets and powder out of some M193s last night and the firing pin didn't penetrate very deep into the primer when I "shot" them in my basement. I should take a pic of those cases and post that. Maybe the ammo oracle website has some info on hardened primers I can read about.

Edited January 5, 2008 by BlackDog

[BlackDog 1]

Well now I have really done it. She won't shoot M193 at all. 2 shots fired out of 10 M193s and I had to slam the bolt forward. All the reloaded ammo fired just fine.

 

Look at the difference on the primer depth from the hits, the M193 is the top row, the bottom row was reloaded ammo with CCI (silver colored) primers and Winchester (gold colored) primers.

Just in case you are wondering, this M193 shoots just fine out of my mini14.

Edited January 6, 2008 by BlackDog

[gunoholic 0]

i would remove the pin and give it a round end or a maybe a small square end, less surface area on the pin should penetrate deeper. good luck

[bambambam 0]

i followed in Blackdogs foot steps and ground off that offending ring on the bolt face but i first removed the firing pin by taking out the pin under the bolt.

[BlackDog 1]

Is there an online tutorial on how to get the firing pin out, or can someone give some really good directions.

Do you drive that pin out or pull it out?

I couldn't figure out how to get the pin out, so I have been slacking on reshaping the pin.

Edited February 8, 2008 by BlackDog

[bambambam 0]

Blackdog,

In your little kit that contains the sight adj. tool,bore brush,there should of been a small punch.

I used this punch to push out the retaining pin . It comes out with no effort but watch for the spring inside it will fly out.Also look in your owners manual it gives very good directions.David

[BlackDog 1]

Alright, I got the pin out and rounded down the end from .072" to about .055"ish.

The m193 primers touch off now, but this was only a test on pulled bullet rounds.

I used a bullet puller and knocked out the powder and the bullet, so it was just the primers getting hit and popping.

I can't test the cycling until saturday, but the depth of the pin strike looks adequate.

Sorry for the sucky pic! On the top is an M193 case and on the bottom is a reloaded LC case with a Winchester SR primer.

 

Thanks David Bayman and gunaholic for the tips!

Edited February 8, 2008 by BlackDog

[bambambam 0]

that is the same way my primers look with the winchester brand

[santanatwo 1]

this thread is full of FAIL

 

first of all, the bolt face is what determines headspacing.

 

By grinding the bolt face, you are increasing the headspace, which could lead to a kaboom.

 

second, why the heck are you modifying such a critical location. that is almost as stupid (no offence) as grinding a feed ramp into the chamber area (to allow feeding of unmodified mags (or in leu of installing a proper feed ramp)

 

 

DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!

[BlackDog 1]

I didn't grind the bolt face, just ground the dimple off the bolt face. How could I have changed the headspace??

 

I got to my club this morning, froze my butt off, and all 10 M193 rounds went off like clockwork.

 

As usual, all 30 reloads went off like clockwork too. I tried some 60gr vmax reloads with IMR 4320 powder and they shot just a whisker tighter than a usual group, I hope there is some potential with these. I wanted to try IMR 3031, but my dealer did not have any in stock this week.

[bambambam 0]

Blackdog,

Ihave good luck using Benchmark and a 62 grain bullet.I am getting 1 1/2 groups at 100 yards.I also checked with my gunsmith who also reloads and he said I should have no problems doing your mod.Which I went ahead and did now my brass loads easy just like the brass for my Ar-15.

[BlackDog 1]

David,

What 62 gr bullets are you using? Is your Saiga a carbine or the 20"?

I had seen your post about using benchmark powder.

When my dealer couldn't find any 3031, he suggested Benchmark powder.

Maybe I'll try both?

[mr. fudd 0]

My understanding is that Russian law dictates that rifles have to mark the brass in some way to identify what type of gun they were shot from. The 7.62x39 Saigas have a stepped neck in the chamber. If you ever look at fired brass from them you'll notice there is a little bulge right at the base of the neck. Apparently you can still reload them just fine.

[bambambam 0]

Blackdog,

The 62gr are ss109 I bought 3000 and go thru qiute a few in a year.My gun is 20" barrel,the powder charge that works best in my gun is 24.5 grains.I also full length resize the brass as I also use it in my ar-15.I am also going to try using H4198 it should take a less powder charge and maybe give the same results.

[Bonesaw 1]

so basically what this thread is stating is that if you want to reload for your Saiga .223, you have to grind on the bolt face?

[MD_Willington 11]

so basically what this thread is stating is that if you want to reload for your Saiga .223, you have to grind on the bolt face?

 

It is stating that you need to carefully remove the ring.

Edited February 26, 2008 by MD_Willington

[bambambam 0]

Bingo!

[JK-47 33]

so basically what this thread is stating is that if you want to reload for your Saiga .223, you have to grind on the bolt face?

 

It is stating that you need to carefully remove the ring.

 

I'm not sure thats a safe conclusion yet. If somone ran a headspace gauge through their saiga after this mod and confirmed it did not alter the headspace, I would feel a lot better about trying somthing like this.

[BlackDog 1]

I would (and should) volunteer, but I don't have a headspace gauge.

Maybe I'll order one this week

Edited February 27, 2008 by BlackDog

[MD_Willington 11]

Head spacing gages would be a very good idea

[dyi 0]

that is almost as stupid (no offence) as grinding a feed ramp into the chamber area (to allow feeding of unmodified mags (or in leu of installing a proper feed ramp)

 

So what about factory guns with the chamber area ramped? I guess they all blew up too.

[BlackDog 1]

The 223 field headspace gage is on backorder from Midway.

I think I will check some of the brass I fired last Saturday with a micrometer and caliper to see if the brass shoulders grew any excessive amounts.

[Variable 0]

Any update on this?

[IndyArms 10,189]

Hmm... yanno... I never even NOTICED this before... Well, actually I HAVE noticed that little ring, there on the bolt... but never even paid it any mind... Probably because I never shot anything other than steel cased non-reloadable ammo out of my Saiga 223's. If I need accuracy I go for my AR... The saigas are just plinking rifles...

 

I will have to check it out with some brass ammo...

 

Learn something new every day!