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Saiga 12 Feeding Problem


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Hey, I'm having a bit of a problem in my Saiga.

 

I had previously only fired bird shot in it on #2 gas setting (Premier Handicap, Game Load, and Nitro - all Remington). Yesterday, I took it to the range again. I fired off a few AGP mags of Federal birdshot (the wal-mart 100 packs) and they fired fine on #2. I switched gas settings to #1 to fire off some Federal 00 Buck ("tactical" with "flightcontrol" on the box). With every single solitary shot, it would fire, eject the shell, and close again (ready for another trigger pull). I'd pull the trigger again, only to find out that the next shell HAD NOT BEEN LOADED. However, simply pulling it back and letting go again would load the next round. I can't figure out what the heck could be happening here.

 

I read on here that some Saigas fire the light loads on the #1 gas setting. I tested it, and sure enough, the Federal birdshot fired just fine on the #1 setting. It was just those Buckshot rounds that wouldn't load after each trigger pull. The buckshot shells are slightly longer (about 1/8") than the birdshot shells, but the Saiga is supposed to take 3" magnums, so that shouldn't be the problem, should it?

 

Any ideas?

 

I can take pics and/or measurements if requested.

 

I just checked the feed angle, and it is the same on the AGP mags as it is on the factory mag. I did not try the 00 buckshot with the factory mag.

 

I'm just thinking aloud here:

 

In the number 1 gas setting, it lets LESS gas into the chamber to push the bolt back so that the heavier loads (slugs and 00) don't make it slam backwards (and hence potentially damage the gun), right? So theoretically, if it was a gas problem (i.e. gas ports not big enough) that is causing the failure to feeds, shouldn't the birdshot DEFINITELY not feed since birdshot should push the bolt back with less force than the buckshot does? And yet the birdshot cycles fine, but the buck doesn't with the same gas setting. If this can rule out any problem with the gas system, then I have no clue, cuz that's about where my knowledge ends.

Edited by Monk
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In general, heavier loads use slower burning powders than lighter skeet and field loads.

 

Faster burning powders peak quicker in pressure. It may be that at the point in the barrel where the gas ports are, the pressure with the lighter loads is actually higher than the pressure is at that point with the heavier loads.

 

That might help explain what you are experiencing.

 

Also, try different brands & types of buck loads to see if one works. I am not familiar with "tactical" or "flight control" Federal buck loads. Those may simply be gimmicky names for "weak."

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Sounds like it is short-stroking to me.

Make sure you eliminate the AGP by trying the same ammo/setting with the russian mag.

 

+1

short-stroking = bolt moves back just enough to reset trigger and eject casing but not far enough to load the next round in battery.

 

This is why when you manually cycle the bolt you will load the next round because you've taken it as far back as it should go.

 

You don't happen to have a buffer installed in there do you?

 

Let us know how you make out with the factory mags.

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Check to see just which 00 Tactical load you were firing. There are three different varieties of Federal Tactical 00 buckshot, and only the full power, 9-pellet shell (LE127-00) was designed for use in autoloaders. The other two are considered reduced recoil loads and are intended for use in pump shotguns...though they will work in some autos.

 

Here's a link to the specs:

http://www.le.atk.com/Interior.asp?section...ot_tactical.asp

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Check to see just which 00 Tactical load you were firing. There are three different varieties of Federal Tactical 00 buckshot, and only the full power, 9-pellet shell (LE127-00) was designed for use in autoloaders. The other two are considered reduced recoil loads and are intended for use in pump shotguns...though they will work in some autos.

 

Here's a link to the specs:

http://www.le.atk.com/Interior.asp?section...ot_tactical.asp

Yeah, I just checked and it is the LE132-00, not the LE127-00. I bought them in an all-white Federal case of 50 rounds, and it didn't say reduced-recoil anywhere, so I just assumed they were normal 00 buck. These are rated at 1145, and the birdshot ones that were cycling pretty much flawlessly even at the #1 gas setting were only rated at 1200. Is there that much of a difference? Or is muzzle velocity not the most accurate indicator of gas pressure?

 

Here is another thing I noticed last night. When I push the birdshot rounds down in my AGP mags, they flow freely, but when I push the 00 buck rounds up and down, they kinda get snagged one "round's-width" from the top. I believe it is because the brass rim is slightly thicker on the buckshot even though they have the same diameter at the birdshot. Could this be the issue? Like maybe the round isn't travelling upward fast enough for the bolt to catch it?

 

Man, I really need to get to the range to experiment with different buckshot rounds and the factory mag...

 

Oh, one more question, if I may:

 

When shells don't eject all the way, is that usually a short stroking problem due to the gas system, or is it usually that the round sometimes gets stuck on its way out on a sharp piece on the receiver? The reason I ask is because very occasionally, one of the birdshot rounds won't eject all the way (usually happens about once or twice every time I take it out and fire off like 50-100 rounds). If it was a gas system thing, wouldn't the FTE's be more frequent?

 

Oh, and to answer an earlier question, no, I don't have any buffer installed. My Saiga is a converted IZ-109.

Edited by Monk
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Here is another thing I noticed last night. When I push the birdshot rounds down in my AGP mags, they flow freely, but when I push the 00 buck rounds up and down, they kinda get snagged one "round's-width" from the top. I believe it is because the brass rim is slightly thicker on the buckshot even though they have the same diameter at the birdshot. Could this be the issue? Like maybe the round isn't travelling upward fast enough for the bolt to catch it?

It sounds like you are describing the most common problem that some people have with the AGP mags. I haven't had any of the second generation ones but it is supposed to be fixed now. Don't worry though because there is an easy fix.

 

First I would try to take the feedlips off and bend them out slightly so they don't squeeze so tight. Don't bend them completely out to right angles or anything, do a little at a time. If that works by itself for you, great. If not, take the feedlips back off and take a flat file and file the right and left interior side walls a little. This is only needed done from the top of the mag and not from the floor plate side. Do a little at a time and try to give each side the same amount of filing.

 

You can test by dropping a shell through to see the difference you are making. As you have already noticed they get slightly to narrow at the top of the tower in some mags.

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Thanks to all who have replied so far.

 

I'm beginning to think this might be a triple issue:

 

1. There is a chance that the low-recoil of the "tactical" buckshot rounds is short stroking the gun.

2. The brass rim of the buckshot rounds may be a bit too thick and/or too wide in diameter for the top of the AGP mags. If it is too thick (meaning the rim, which would only be a few millimeters thick), then I need to sand down the top of the inner groove that runs the length of the magazine, correct? However, if the brass is slightly too wide in diameter, then I actually need to widen the feed lips so they don't squeeze so much on the top of the mag, correct?

 

and lastly, #3, which I have just confirmed is true:

 

3. The magwell may be (and as far as I can tell, IS) too tight. I read in some old posts that Cobra suggests dremelling it out very slightly to correct this. Here's what I found: my friend also has a Saiga 12, and one time, his factory 5 rounder got STUCK in my magwell when I used it. I figured that maybe my mag catch/clip/(whatever you call it that locks the mag into place) was slightly too long or something, but he brought his over here and I just did a side-by-side comparison. Apparantly, the AGP mags go freely into both magwells, although it is SLIGHTLY easier to get it into his than into mine. Then I took his factory mag and tested it. It slid right into place in his gun, but it is HARD to get it into mine - I didn't even want to click it all the way in because I knew it would get stuck again. I have isolated the problem to the rear, wider portion of the magwell. The front of the 5 rounder goes freely into the thinner part of each gun's magwell, but the rear of the 5 rounder flows freely into the wider portion of his magwell while it is tight as heck in the wider portion of mine. Visibly, I can't really see the difference, but I'm sure it's there. How would you all suggest I go about widening it? I have a hobbyist hand-dremel, but I don't know if that will work well on such metal.

 

So, in essence, it may well be a combination of all three of these things as far as I can tell. What do you guys think?

Edited by Monk
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Yeah, I just checked and it is the LE132-00, not the LE127-00. I bought them in an all-white Federal case of 50 rounds, and it didn't say reduced-recoil anywhere, so I just assumed they were normal 00 buck. These are rated at 1145, and the birdshot ones that were cycling pretty much flawlessly even at the #1 gas setting were only rated at 1200. Is there that much of a difference? Or is muzzle velocity not the most accurate indicator of gas pressure?

I think the reason they don't is that there are a good number of semi-autos out there they do work in...I know of several guys who use what you have in Benelli's without problem. Some vendors will mark it as low recoil ammo, but you're right, a disclaimer on the box would be nice. Beyond that, IIRC, the Tactical Precision 000, the really slow stuff, is marked "for pump actions only." All in all though, the Federal Tactical line will produce some impressive patterns out of a smooth bore shotgun.

 

Give Mike's suggestions a try and see if that takes care of the issue, and defiantly do some testing with the factory mag. That will help eliminate some of the unknowns and root out the real problem. And if you want to try some of the full power loads, these guys have it at a reasonable price:

http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/index.p...-gauge-buckshot

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Maybe I missed something here.....did you try to shoot the low recoil fed buckshot on the light setting (2)?? I have used the low recoil flight control wad OO fed rounds on the 2 setting and recoil is light, with hulls ejecting with no more force/distance than with the walmart promo stuff. My gun worked just fine on 2, and produced tight patterns.

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Maybe I missed something here.....did you try to shoot the low recoil fed buckshot on the light setting (2)?? I have used the low recoil flight control wad OO fed rounds on the 2 setting and recoil is light, with hulls ejecting with no more force/distance than with the walmart promo stuff. My gun worked just fine on 2, and produced tight patterns.

Nah, I didn't try that. I was too pissed about it not working on #1 since I thought they were "normal" 00 buck rounds at the time.

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