37 replies to this topic

[ar15pistolpimp]

I have a pistol that is my backup for my back up (listed on my ccw) it's a .410 / 45 long colt pistol. I was wondering if it would be possible to shoot 45 long colt by making some sort of rifled choke kind of thing thing goes on the end of the barrel (to give the bullet some spin). I know that long colt will chamber in a .410 barrel. Is there any kind of doube stack mag for 45 long colt a long single will work. I plan on making a mag block that the clip will slide in the forward protion of themag well and lock int the block. I dont know if I will even need to make a feed ramp if i can position the round forward enough (in the mag well) as the round is only one inch short of a 2 3/4" .410 shell. It would be lie a wild west cowboy gun meets russian tech

I think I am going to buy a saiga .410 for experemtaion of this. looking for a used .410 Saiga. I should of bought that one for $250 a month ago.
here are a few images of my pistol that shoots both it has 1/3 to3/4" rifiling in the rnd of the barrel

[nalioth]

If your shotty is full choked, you'll plug it up or blow it up.

Shotguns that fire pistol rounds usually suck at doing both in the accuracy department, even if the barrel is able to hande the pistol bullet.

[ar15pistolpimp]

If your shotty is full choked, you'll plug it up or blow it up.

Shotguns that fire pistol rounds usually suck at doing both in the accuracy department, even if the barrel is able to hande the pistol bullet.

guess I'll thorw it away because it SUCKS lol J/k thanks for the feedback

[Joe Blasco]

Interesting question...
I think you will be interested in Taurus Judge http://www.taurususa...tegory=Revolver.
Bullets are spin stabilized, slugs have fins the Russians call them "turbines".
A bullet fired from a smooth bore since it doesn't have fins is not stabilized and according to distance and climate conditions (humidity, dense of air, temperature) may tumble in flight.
"Paradox " chokes are rifled extensions for saiga shotguns designed not for bullets but for better accuracy with slugs.
Now this is a matter of another greater controversy if a fin stabilized projectile should be spin stabilized also. In the past this was avoided because it was thought that spin would interfere with the shaped charge of the usually anti armor projectile. In nowdays spin stabilization is used but spin comes as a result from fin rotation not barrel rifling. Fin stabilized projectiles are somewhat considered "slow" in flight and ballistic trajectories are wider parabolas than the trajectories for bullets.
Paradox is not imported in the US sometimes rusmil has it in stock.
Down to earth now...
Will you get blown? Generally if you fire a small caliber pistol bullet from an unobstructed barrel (that means unchoked also) you will not.
Then why don't people fire .50 caliber rifle from 12 gauge shotguns? Because getting blown or not is also connected to the potential kinetic energy of the projectile.
Simply for how many FPS the barrel and generally the weapon mechanism is designed for.
Will it make sense ballistically firing a pistol caliber bullet from an smoothbore? No the bullet will tumble in flight...It's good only for survival situations.


Joe

I have a pistol that is my backup for my back up (listed on my ccw) it's a .410 / 45 long colt pistol. I was wondering if it would be possible to shoot 45 long colt by making some sort of rifled choke kind of thing thing goes on the end of the barrel (to give the bullet some spin). I know that long colt will chamber in a .410 barrel. Is there any kind of doube stack mag for 45 long colt a long single will work. I plan on making a mag block that the clip will slide in the forward protion of themag well and lock int the block. I dont know if I will even need to make a feed ramp if i can position the round forward enough (in the mag well) as the round is only one inch short of a 2 3/4" .410 shell. It would be lie a wild west cowboy gun meets russian tech

I think I am going to buy a saiga .410 for experemtaion of this. looking for a used .410 Saiga. I should of bought that one for $250 a month ago.
here are a few images of my pistol that shoots both it has 1/3 to3/4" rifiling in the rnd of the barrel

[Cobra's Custom LLC]

I'm interested to see how this goes for you. As long as you don't fire a jacketed bullet, or any other probably, through a full choke, I don't see why you would have any problem with single shots. The barrel is open cylinder unless you intentionally screw on a factory full chooke. It should work fine on an open bore.
If that works, then adding a paradox should increase accuracy like it does with sabot slugs. I seems to me there's a marginal difference using rifled lead slugs in mine with the paradox screwed on there. I know with the 12 ga, which I also have a paradox for, it doesn't do much for foster slugs (other than foul the rifling quickly) and is meant for sabot slugs.
If you attempt to fire one thru there I would do it remotely just to be safe(you know, the old string on the trigger with the gun in a tire, and you behind a barricade thing).
They way all these guns are overbuilt, I see no reason why the chamber pressure should be too high for it to handle.
It would be interesting to see how it cycled the next 410 rd in the mag (if the extractor will grab and eject the .45 rnd that is).
It is a rimmed cartridge right?

Here is my .410 with paradox installed.
 My_410_muzzle_with_paradox_choke.JPG   467.91KB   8 downloads

[BobAsh]

It's an interesting project, but you don't actually carry that antique, do you?

[nalioth]

It is a rimmed cartridge right?

Yes, it is rimmed and it fits perfectly inside a .410 chamber. This is why everybody gets "the light bulb".





Unfortunately, a lot of people don't think it through and get "the bright flash", too.

Edited by nalioth, 08 January 2008 - 10:42 AM.

[turbo1889]

No !!!!!! Stop !!!!! Don't kill yourself !!!!

Your thinking is slightly backwards --- you can fire a 410 shot shell in a 45-Colt but you can't fire a 45-Colt in a 410 shot-gun. The internal bore diameter of a 45-Colt gun is about 0.452" to 0.454" and the internal diameter of a 410 shotgun is about 0.408" to 0.412". Now most 45-Colt guns don't have a deep enough chamber to accept the 410 shot shell but some such as your gun (Nice by the way, I always wanted one of those by the way -- they no longer make those and they are hard to find) have an extra deep chamber and throut and are known as "combination guns" and are designed to fire either 45-Colt or 410 shot shells and are usually labled "45-Colt/410-shot" on the barrel.

A Saiga-410 out of the box has an internal bore diameter of about 0.408" to 0.412" and conforms to standard dimensions and tolerances for the 410 shot shell cartridge. 45-Colt bullets are at their smallest 0.452" diameter. And the internal bore diameter of a S-410 is at it's largest 0.412" So, best case scenerio, you will be trying to force a 0.452" diameter bullet down a 0.412" diameter hole !!!!! Now add to this the fact that the maximum pressure for a 410 shot shell is suppost to be 13.5-Kpsi and the 45-Colt factory loads are opperating at 14-Kpsi. Well you've already got an extra 500psi over max and then it's going to shoot up even further from there when your too big bullet hits the forcing cone. The forcing cone is the barrel section right in front of the chamber where the internal diameter of the barrel tapers down smaller from the chamber size to the bore size. When that 45-Colt bullet hits that spot the gun is probably going to go --- KaBoom !!!!

Now if you must shoot a metallic cowboy catridge in a standard 410 shotgun (in other words not a combination gun marked as such) then you can use another cartridge which has the same case dimensions as the 45-Colt but is necked down to take a smaller bullet. If memory serves me right it's called the 38-40 ????? And the bullet diameter is a much more compatible dimension.

[Cobra's Custom LLC]

It is a rimmed cartridge right?

Yes, it is rimmed and it fits perfectly inside a .410 chamber. This is why everybody gets "the light bulb".





Unfortunately, a lot of people don't think it through and get "the bright flash", too.

Well then duhhh. Any idiot that even tried to manually load a 45 long colt in the 410 chamber would see that and know it's obviously not going to work. I have never had one to even look at it with so I wouldn't know. My post above was assuming that the rim is the same size as the one on the 410 shell.
Anyone who also wished to try this (I know this same question has been asked many times here) would be foolish not to try sliding a pulled bullet down the barrel very first thing to make sure it would actually fit. At this point too, would the person know for sure that it just ain't gonna work.

Thanks for clearing that up turbo, and especially for doing it in a non SMARTASS kind of way.

[Cobra's Custom LLC]

BTW nice pistol there. Turbo you can get an over and under model Derringer that is similar to that brand new. My dealer has one.

[turbo1889]

It's an interesting project, but you don't actually carry that antique, do you?

Well I've got pictures below of what my backup-backup (third) carry gun is. His has the advantages of larger caliber (45-Colt/410-shot vs. 32-ACP) and quicker reloads (Top Break Side-by-Side vs. Flip-Up Over-Under). Granted his is for his backup (second) carry gun and mine is for my backup-backup (third) carry gun but hey if it goes bang it's better then your bare fists.

And oh, yes, I did look it up in my notes and it is indeed the 38-40 Winchester metallic cowboy catridge that can be safely loaded and fired in a 410 shot gun. I've done it myself with my full choke break action single shot. Bullet diameter is 0.400" so you can fire it even through a choked gun. and pressure levels are about 13-Kpsi for most loads so your plently safe.

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[turbo1889]

BTW nice pistol there. Turbo you can get an over and under model Derringer that is similar to that brand new. My dealer has one.

Yup, as the post I just finished assembling shows I already have a small caliber over-under. It's the side-by-side top break action that's really hard to find. Top break side-by-side cuts reload time like to a third compared to the flip-up over-under design.

[Cobra's Custom LLC]

It's an interesting project, but you don't actually carry that antique, do you?

Well I've got pictures below of what my backup-backup (third) carry gun is. His has the advantages of larger caliber (45-Colt/410-shot vs. 32-ACP) and quicker reloads (Top Break Side-by-Side vs. Flip-Up Over-Under). Granted his is for his backup (second) carry gun and mine is for my backup-backup (third) carry gun but hey if it goes bang it's better then your bare fists.

And oh, yes, I did look it up in my notes and it is indeed the 38-40 Winchester metallic cowboy catridge that can be safely loaded and fired in a 410 shot gun. I've done it myself with my full choke break action single shot. Bullet diameter is 0.400" so you can fire it even through a choked gun. and pressure levels are about 13-Kpsi for most loads so your plently safe.

Mmmmmmmm "COBRA" huh? Mongo likes!

The one my dealer has is a top break action .410 / .45 Colt. over and under.

[nalioth]

Bottom line is, you should never fire anything other than what is marked on your firearm. Just because the cartridge fits in the chamber, doesn't mean it's safe or a 'good thing to do'.



Luckily, Darwins law prevails upon folks who do think that this is safely doable.

[ar15pistolpimp]

Bottom line is, you should never fire anything other than what is marked on your firearm. Just because the cartridge fits in the chamber, doesn't mean it's safe or a 'good thing to do'.



Luckily, Darwins law prevails upon folks who do think that this is safely doable.

Thanks for all of the information. I have had this gun for over 10 years . I have shot it 100 times or more. As to the question do I carry it? Yes I do right in my jacket pocket. I can hit at 15 yards no problem, at 2 ft man is that person in trouble! 2- 3" magnum .410 slugs unloaded at once in your chest, I think you better call 911. I have a gen 1 glock 17 as my primary waist inside band. My secondary is the sweetest shooting HK P&PSP squeeze cocker, Ankle holster (i don't think it gets more accurate than that pistol) and third is the FMJ ducktown AKA Cobray jacket pocket. I know that everyone loves the .45acp but I like the nine It i have to shoot you 2 or 3 times so be it I have 19 rounds +8 +2 that should be enough.

What ever you do Don't make me bust out the 30 rnd AR15 pistol on the sling under the jacket J/K it would come out first:)

[Racer 27]

I can hit at 15 yards no problem, at 2 ft man is that person in trouble! 2- 3" magnum .410 slugs unloaded at once in your chest, I think you better call 911.

I have to call bullshit. I want to see video of you shooting both at once. I'm betting that that little thing jumps up and gives you a kiss.

[BobAsh]

You carry a lot more hardware than anybody I know.

[turbo1889]

You carry a lot more hardware than anybody I know.

Yah, sounds like most of the time he has me beat. I do know two people that carry more then he does though. One all the time and the other most of the time --- both are a little - well - errr - I do mean that in the nicest way of course --- its just that well do you really need that much gear just to make a run to the super-market ????? I mean back alley of Chicago in the wrong part of town about 3 a.m. I completely understand. Everyone has their personal liberty and can pack around a mini-bazooka under their jacket for all I care but there comes a certain point where I kind of shake my head.

[BobAsh]

You know people that carry more than 4 pistols? Wow. It's all relative, I guess, but it seems incredibly paranoid to me.

How do you lug all that crap around in the summertime?

[nalioth]

How do you lug all that crap around in the summertime?

Why, in a combat wheelbarrow, of course!

[6x6pinz]

My buddy shoots a Thompson Contender with a 45 long colt/410 barrel. I have seen him shoot the thing and unless you are resting on the wrong end of the barrel you are pretty safe. I seem to recall a big discussion about the 41 rem mag in 410's. Same problem though, a pistol round down a shotgun barrel. I guess I like my guns a little more than others so I will stick to what the gun was intended to shoot.

Edited by 6x6pinz, 09 January 2008 - 01:44 PM.

[ar15pistolpimp]

You carry a lot more hardware than anybody I know.

I just carry 2 most fo the time. When I go out of town on my Chopper I take all 4. In the bike world it can get real messy! When going to store I just take the glock. What good are guns sitting at home on the table or in the safe. Sometimes on the way home from work I stop at the range and get in some time, maybe 3 to 4 times a week. I dont like my guns to be sitting in the valet or a parking lot so I take them with. It isnt for fear or any thing like that. The G3 and the ducktown are so small they count as ! I rarely carry 4 guns, but I have in special situations.
to RACER
AS far as shootin both barrels, I have made a special selector that allows me to shoot both. I am not going to do a video But If you come to vegas I'll bet you $500.00, 1 dime if you like Ill shoot both and it Wont Kiss me as you put it. You can see it first hand gut you will have to pay, Now lest see who is calling bullshit! put up or shut yup!

Edited by ar15pistolpimp, 09 January 2008 - 03:06 PM.

[patriot]

.41 Magnum, .454 Casull and .445 Supermag would probably fit too, but you're on your own there if you fire them.

[drooling idiot]

AS far as shootin both barrels, I have made a special selector that allows me to shoot both.

So what your saying for any BATFE wandering by is you've manufactured an illegal machine gun.
you really ain't too bright is ya?

B Machinegun
The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

http://www4.law.corn...45----000-.html

[Shaneman153D]

a dealer here sells a brand-new imported gun very similar to this. The barrel is a bit longer, about 10 or 12". If I recall it was pretty cheap too. Next time I'm there I'll inquire about the name of it.

[ar15pistolpimp]

AS far as shootin both barrels, I have made a special selector that allows me to shoot both.

So what your saying for any BATFE wandering by is you've manufactured an illegal machine gun.
you really ain't too bright is ya?

B Machinegun
The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

http://www4.law.corn...45----000-.html

"Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. " i dont this its a machine gun at all Bro

[nalioth]

AS far as shootin both barrels, I have made a special selector that allows me to shoot both.

So what your saying for any BATFE wandering by is you've manufactured an illegal machine gun.
you really ain't too bright is ya?

B Machinegun
The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

http://www4.law.corn...45----000-.html

"Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. " i dont this its a machine gun at all Bro

It's gonna be awful quiet around here without you.

[ar15pistolpimp]

AS far as shootin both barrels, I have made a special selector that allows me to shoot both.

So what your saying for any BATFE wandering by is you've manufactured an illegal machine gun.
you really ain't too bright is ya?

B Machinegun
The term ”machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

http://www4.law.corn...45----000-.html

"Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. " i dont this its a machine gun at all Bro

It's gonna be awful quiet around here without you.

did i mention it has 2 triggers

Edited by ar15pistolpimp, 09 January 2008 - 08:29 PM.

[drooling idiot]

"Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. "
i dont "THINK" this its a machine gun at all Bro

why are your quoting what is not eligilbe to be an AOW ?
Stop trying to think, you've shown its not your strong point. Now remove your special selector and destroy it completely before my taxes are paying for you to be some real gangsters punk.

did i mention it has 2 triggers

Where's the second one ?

[GySgt New River]

Gentleman,

In no defense to anyone I have had one of these side-by-side pistols. Mine had a little better grip then pimps does but it looks like he took his off. My factory selector lever was on top of the hammer and it rocked from side to side to fire each barrel individually...maybe this is what he changed...once again WTF would you do that for? Firing one .410 in that small of a pistol stings your paw a little, I'd hate to feel both at the same time.

Also, FYI the box it came in and on the pistol was "CLEARLY" marked .410/.45LC. I had about 1/2" of rifling at the end of the barrel that was useless, I used it as a belly SHTF backup weapon. How the manufacture got away with that I'm not sure but the pistol looks antiquated but I assure you there new.

Sold mine a year ago and kinda miss her.