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Gabe on the "State of the Art" Shotgun


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Here's the article by Gabe Suarez from the latest Suarez International newsletter:

 

THE STATE OF THE ART - SHOTGUN

 

 

Although for general purposes, I'd definitely take a rifle, the shotgun comes into its niche in "expected" very close range fights, in reduced light where the tempo of events does not favor traditional marksmanship principles, and where devastating damage needs to be inflicted in as short a time as possible with minimum number of shots. Additional assets are that the nature of the pattern and ammunition lends to hitting adversaries that might otherwise not be hit with a single projectlie, and the rapidly decreasing velocity tends to minimize collateral damage that may result from rifle fire.

 

Can you do these things with a rifle? Yes...but not as well as with a shotgun. That, my friends, is what the shotgun is for. Can you do that with slugs? No. Disagree with this statement? Show me. And if you can, show me what that will give you that a regular rifle will not also give you.

 

 

I have been reading the various threads regarding the Saiga shotguns at warriortalk.

 

Personally, I think the future of combat shotgunning is the Saiga. Just as the 1911 crowd bemoaned the advent of that silly-looking "plastic" pistol from Austria back in the early 1990s, I see the same resistance from the traditional shotgun venues in the USA. But all the traditional shotguns out there from the 870 to the Benelli are simply bird guns reworked for tactical use.

 

I remember the hey-day of Heckler and Koch, when every SWT unit was using some derivative of the MP5. With the HK package came the Benelli Super 90. And for many years, the Super 90 lead the way in fighting shotgun development. Trailing it were the 1100/1187, the 870, and to a lesser degree, the Mossbergs. No other shotguns were, or are, as widely adopted as these. Yet all of these have deficiencies. They are all sporting guns modified for police/military use. One can argue that they are sufficient and that they will work. Sure...so will a five shot revolver, and a lever action rifle. But you see few of those as uninfluenced first choices today.

 

The Saiga is different. What I see happening is that beginning here, we will influence changes in the shotgun world. See today how our Close Range Gunfighting, Force On Force, and Kalashnikov programs have changed things. Back in 2000, people were still arguing about Weaver versus Isoceles for heavens sake.

Today they are copying what we are doing and even the stodgiest dinosaur school is grudgingly taking a little shuffle step off the x and admitting that a little force on force is OK.

 

The Saiga has the potential of becoming the Glock of the shotgun world. The only limit is how fast the Russians can make them and how quickly can Americans import them. Eventually, someone will figure it out and reverse-engineer an all US-made Saiga shotgun (as well as probably an AK), but that eventuality is far off. Eventually also other companies will make magazine fed shotguns based on other weapon systems. I am dying to see what an M4 shotgun will look like. We will see all the gizzmo-freaks add things to these things like they do to their overweight M4s. But the AK platform will out-price and out perform them all, just as the Kalashnikov Rifle does today.

 

I must say it is exciting to be leading the charge on this. The only things that can stop or curtail this are the production capability at Izhmash, Russia, import problems created by our beloved government, or the passage of some law against these by an outlaw political machine. None of these seem likely...at least not in the near future. (With all the existing politcal problems, it will take at least 4 years for even The Witch Hillary to get to the guns issue).

 

SI presently has a dozen Kalashnikov Rifles. I don't need that many, but my training company does. Since I have seen the Saiga 12 and worked with it, I plan to accumulate as many of these as it would take to equip a training class. The state of the art today is the Saiga 12.

 

 

__________________

Gabe Suarez

 

Thought all you Saiga fans might like to see that Gabe has come around to seeing things the way we've been seeing them for some time now. :smoke:

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Eventually, someone will figure it out and reverse-engineer an all US-made Saiga shotgun (as well as probably an AK), but that eventuality is far off.

 

Like that would be hard to figure out? Not rocket science just economics and maybe licensing.

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There are some US companies building AKs. Granted, they are using some imported parts, but they are rebuilt here in the US on new receivers.

 

http://www.ak-47.us/AK47_Manufacturers.php

 

http://www.arsenalinc.com/articles/slr106/SAR_SLR106.pdf

Edited by Cobra 76 two
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Tough to compete on price? Right now you're doing conversions on guns you supply for $870 for just the basic conversion. You don't think you could manufacture the gun in basic conversion form for $800? You don't have to compete on price for the $450 guns, you need to compete against your conversion prices as I assume you'd be manufacturing straight into a pistol-grip configuration.

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But if Gabe is correct...

 

I hear ya bro. But the Saiga is built completely out of mass-produced parts. You're looking at a HUGE up-front investment for tooling, or a similar weapon at double the cost made of machined parts.

 

You never know, though...

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You don't think you could manufacture the gun in basic conversion form for $800?

No, not out of CNC parts you can't.

 

What about just building the major parts (receiver, trunion, barrel)? While the guns themselves can be hard to obtain, there seems to be no shortage of Saiga-specific spare parts. Between Izmash spares and US-produced generic AK parts, it should be possible.

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A year and a half ago I was looking at what it would take to convert my Benelli into a competitive Three Gun configuration. Then it hit me, like a brick upside the head, that trying to make a tube gun "modern" is a waste of time. I totally concur with Gabe. I wish the morons at the major publicaitons would come out and say "Any remington 870, no matter waht, is inferior in overall combat/defensive utility compared to the Saiga." It is the truth.

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I bought my first Saiga 12 from the importer at a Wannamacher Gunshow in Tulsa in 2002 for $199 on a dare as well as a 7.62x39 and a Junker airgun for a grand total of $500 and thought that this spraypainted monstrosity would probably end up traded off in a week because my Benellis ruled the roost at my house.

 

I was wrong,That Saiga made me a believer and ate everything excepted my winchester turkey loads,even the wimpy "tactical" 00 Buck rounds on the birdshot setting and the only thing bad about them was the lack of magazines.

 

My wife scored two 8rd magazines with her commission card privileges but other than that is was the 5rd factory mags but it still dominated in tactical utility over any other shotgun I had ever owned.

 

I made the mistake of dumping all of them except the 7.62x39 gun about a year before the AWB due to a lack of full capacity mags and here I am buying all of this stuff back at 2x the price and about $2000 worth of these new hicap mags to boot.

 

We did lead the way and are still leading the way especially with the shotgun but in the process of doing this we are letting the amateurs and gun snobs dictate the prices when those of us who know better remember that CDNN was liquidating them slightly above cost which was $250 just a couple of years ago.

 

I hope that all of the gun gurus finally seeing the light doesn't make our crowd turn into the same kind of smug,closed minded know it alls who name drop to impress the uninitiated because fellas,THAT IS GAAAAAAAY

:smoke:

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SOPMOD is correct.

 

 

While the guns themselves can be hard to obtain, there seems to be no shortage of Saiga-specific spare parts.

This statement is totally contrary to my experience. Accessories, sure. But how many bolts, carriers, barrels etc. have you seen for sale?

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Im very happy to see someone like Gabe finally find this sucker and give it some of the appreciation its deserved for a long time now.

 

However, I have to agree with SOPMOD, as well. It goes with the territory, I guess.

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When the word smith string pullers find the Saiga's, and pump their elitist wannabe followers ego's full of "I have one so I am the schnit",

we can laugh at them and say "YEAH YEAH - I was into the Saiga since ___. Go to The forum@saiga-12 and see how real men did it- too bad you weren't there.

 

 

It's great to see someone as bonified as Gabe joining us.

Edited by G O B
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SOPMOD is correct.

 

 

While the guns themselves can be hard to obtain, there seems to be no shortage of Saiga-specific spare parts.

This statement is totally contrary to my experience. Accessories, sure. But how many bolts, carriers, barrels etc. have you seen for sale?

 

From Tantal's website:

 

We have a quantity of top quality spare parts for your Izhmash Saiga shotgun. These hard to find items will make sure your shotgun keeps running smoothly for years to come. We have new bolt assemblies, bolt carriers, top covers, cleaning rods, cleaning kits, manuals, recoil springs, ejection port shields, various pins, trigger parts, sight rails, furniture items, buttstock hardware parts, chokes, slings, magazines and magazine parts, optics and other small items too numerous to list here. Please e-mail me with any special request you might have. We sell only original factory items which have been fully inspected and factory proofed, in new or near new condition.

 

I don't know if you could order, say, a crate of bolts and carriers, but at least he has a channel for factory parts.

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