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Different Shell Sizes

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Find some mags that say '410x70' for the 2 3/4 inch shells.

 

 

Can you point me in the right direction where to get the 410 X 70 magazine? Will I damage my shotgun if I attempt to load the 2 3/4" slugs and fire them using the 410 X 76 magazine?

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I've had my .410 for only a couple of months but I've used both the Winchester 3" and the Golden Bear 2.75" shells in my stock 3" mags that came with the gun.

 

 

The Winchester 3" shells have worked fine so far:

 

Winchester.jpg

 

 

The Golden Bear 2.75" shells have been problematic (jams, etc.):

 

GoldenBear.jpg

 

 

I'm using the #1 setting on the front gas setting so not sure if this could be causing the issues with Golden Bear sabots.

 

Where did you find a 10 rounder? Haven't seen these for sale anywhere online... :)

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PSee, Welcome. See other items in the 410 forum regarding 10 round mags or MD drums & mags. The short story is that ten rounders are hard to find. When they were available as recently as a year ago, they were $60 each. There are other posts describing modification of the four round mags to accept five rounds and welding two four rounders together to create an eight or nine round mag. There is a rumor that rusmilitary will have 10 rounders available this month, and expect to pay more than $60. MD arms, the maker of the 20 round 12 gauge drum magazine has been saying that they will eventually make a high cap magazine, but no promises on a date. So you see where we are. The best you can do is add an entry to the forum topics saying you will buy when they are available. Maybe we can generate some interest with the makers. Never tried 2 3/4" shells, but have fired plenty of 2 1/2" singly. There are 2 1/2" four round mags available. I've never tried 2 3/4" shells. Good luck.

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Okay, here is how it boils down for the available lengths of shells in the 410-shot cartridge:

 

2008-01-20_234913_Explanation_of_410_Length_of_Shells.GIF

 

 

 

 

Now if you look closely at the drawing of the shells you will notice two things. First off the conventional plastic shells are shorter before being fired because some of the haul length is used up in the fold. The exact amount of haul length used up in the fold is right on at about 1/4 of an inch. The full length metallic shells however are the same length before and after firing. Now, officially the actual length of the shell (for example 3") is what the shell measures after firing. Now clips are designed to fit the conventional plastic hauls before firing. This is when you should notice the second thing. The next size shorter full length metallic shell is almost identical in length to an unfired plastic shell.

 

Thus in conclusion a clip designed to hold and feed 3" plastic shells will hold and properly feed both 3" plastic shells and 2-3/4" full length metallic shells --- for a S-410 this will be the clip designated "410 x 76". A clip designed to hold and feed 2-3/4" plastic shells will hold and properly feed both 2-3/4" plastic shells and 2-1/2" full length metallic shells --- for a S-410 such a clip is unfortionatly not commercially produced. Finally, a clip designed to hold and feed 2-1/2" plastic shells will hold and properly feed both 2-1/2" plastic shells and 2-1/4" full length metallic shells --- for a S-410 this will be the clip designated "410 x 65". To my knowledge there are no 2-1/4" full length metallic shells produced, however, brass shells in exactly such a length are available from Magtech for handloaders to load their own such cartridges.

 

 

Now, about how to stop that jamming with the Golden Bear shells:

Okay, for the newbies (I was one as well not long ago):

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

~Magnum vs. Non-Magnum

~~~~Technically for the .410ga. "magnum" means a 3" shell with a heavy hunting load at maximum safe pressure.

~~~~Realistically "magnum" means a shell that will cycle the action on the more constricted #1 setting.

~~~~General "rule of thumb" = 3" shells are magnum and 2-1/2" shells are non-magnum for the .410ga. There is the occasional exceptions to the rule that you should mentally note for further refrence. For example my gun will cycle the Federal brand 2-1/2" slugs on the magnum setting. In addition guns are all slightly different from one to the other of the same model and where as yours may cycle one shell on a certain setting mine won't or visa versa.

~~~~Best policy, is to attempt to fire a clip full of a specific shell through your gun on the magnum setting (#1) and if the action does not fully cycle or jambs up then switch to the non-magnum setting (#2). A magnum shell will cycle on both the magnum and non-magnum settings but using it with the non-magnum setting works the action extra hard and increases the wear and tear on your gun over time.

~~~~If you leave your Saiga-410 loaded next to the bed-side leave it on the non-magnum (#2) setting. It will thus cycle any shell you put in it. Yes, it will be a little harder on the gun, but not enough to worry about in a fire-fight and will actually help make sure you get no jams. You don't want to be fiddling with the gas piston setting when someone is shooting at you !!!!

 

~Specific info on Saiga-410 Gas Piston Settings

~~~~ Setting #1 is for magnum shells. This setting constricts the gas flow slightly to save wear and tear on the guns action when using magnum shells.

~~~~ Setting #2 is for lighter shells (including the vast majority of 2-1/2" shells). This setting eliminates the constriction and is "wide open throttle."

~~~~ Specific graphical illustration of the two settings:

2007-11-08_232723_Saiga-410_Gas_Valve.JPG

 

~Specific info on using 2-1/2" shells in Saiga-410

~~~~Must have adjustable gas valve or limit yourself to 2-1/2" loads hot enough to work the action --- the only hot factory load I know of is the Federal brand slugs and they may not work for every gun like they do for mine.

~~~~ For standard 3" mag it is possible to load and fire two (2) of the shorter shells. Load the mag with a single shell. Put the mag in the gun and work the action to chamber the round. Turn safety on and remove the mag and again load a single round. Replace the mag and you will have one shell in the chamber and one in the mag. At least on my gun this single 2-1/2" shell in a 3" mag will feed correctly for a second shot.

~~~~ Get yourself a dedicated 2-1/2" mag. Here is a link to where I bought mine and it works great: http://www.armsofamerica.com/magazines/saigamags.html -- mag for 410 2-1/2" shells is the forth one down on the page.

 

So if a shell consistently jambs up on setting #1 switch to setting #2 and it should work just fine. The shell in question obviously doesn't have quite enough smack to reliably work the action on the restricted magnum setting.

Edited by turbo1889

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Slugs in 410-bore do have the punch to penetrate a 2x6 framed wall with 5/8" sheetrock on both sides and R-25 fiber-glass insulation batts inbetween. I have tested them on that exact combination. Now, the bigger size buckshot (OO, OOO, and OOOO buck) gets through as well but is going slow enough on the other side that it would probably only penetrate just under the skin of a naked human standing on the other side --- still make them plenty mad enough to sue though. Biggest pellets that are stopped by such a wall are loads with lead BB shot. Unfortionatly they are not commercially produced and must be handloaded. You say you've got shells with #4 shot. Is that #4 buckshot or #4 shot. Number four buckshot are the smallest size of buckshot they are big balls bigger then the BB's yet quite smaller then the "O" buck sizes and might get through but probably just bounce off anything they hit on the other side and number four shot is much smaller then BB's so they won't get through.

 

If the walls inbetween the condos are "fire-walls" that means they are double thick walls and anything up to and including OO buck is probably going to be just fine and a full 3" shell of any size of buck shot inbetween #4 and OO is going to be nasty to be on the wrong end of. If I knew the walls were double thick "fire-walls" I'd be looking in the direction of the S&B three inch mag. loads of five OO buck balls or into some loads Golden Bear loads with #4 buck. If they are single thickness non-fire-walls then I wouldn't go any bigger then #4 buck but at the same time really wouldn't want to go as small as #4 bird shot because that small of pellet isn't going to have the stopping power of the bigger pellets.

 

My advise to you is to see if you can take your loads to the range and see what they would do to first a wall as I described. If you know someone who works in construction you can have them pick you up some short lengths of 2x6 (framers usually throw away any scrap blocks shorter then 2 foot at the end of the job) some fiberglass insulation batt scrap (small scraps are plentiful towards the end of the job for insulators) and some scrap sheetrock (rock hangers throw away huge amounts of this usually anything smaller then half a sheet 4'x4' gets tossed). Make a square with the scrap wood and put sheet rock on both sides with insulation in the hollow inbetween. Blast away at single and/or double "fire" walls with various sizes of big bird shot and buck shot. Next get a water-mellon that's just a little too ripe from like the food bank and shoot it --- that about simulates what your loads are going to do to a clothed nasty busting down your door in the middle of the night. Did the shot make it deep enough into the red part of the melon ??? Red is good --- red is vitals.

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I Am going to STICKY this topic, for the pictures alone are worth a thousand words... It helps to clarify what many here try to explain and a lot of times is misunderstood about shotgun shell lengths, ESPECIALLY with the 410's!!

 

Thanks for the great visualization to help clarify!!

 

:smoke:

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At 20', a 3" load of #4 shot is about 10" across with about 150 pellets, at 10' it's closer to 3" across. At a 10" pattern you average two pellets per square inch, but in reality the center 5" or so has about half of the shot, making it far more dense, closer to 10 or 12 per square inch, with the center of that pattern even more dense. Set up some large paper targets. Red builders paper works great. It's 3' wide and very tough, better than newspaper and easier to measure and count holes, hard to write on though. Knockdown? Who knows? I can't think of a meaningful test. A ten round mag will go a long way toward accumulated effect though.

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I have not been able to get my Saiga .410 to cycle the Russian made steel cased slugs on setting #1. However, every other 3" shell that I have fired out of it does work on the number 1 setting. I fired one Rem birdshot 3" on the number 2 setting and it was very loud and angry, and actually generated some kick. I only use the number 2 setting for the russian slugs.

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Ordered some of the Russian 2.75" buckshot and tried them today. Definitely needed to use the #2 setting. I would concur the Russian made shells don't have enough punch for the #1 setting on a stock .410.

 

Goldenbearbuck.jpg

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Ordered some of the Russian 2.75" buckshot and tried them today. Definitely needed to use the #2 setting. I would concur the Russian made shells don't have enough punch for the #1 setting on a stock .410.

 

Goldenbearbuck.jpg

Our springs must all be slightly different from use or something. On #1, the Golden Bear buckshot cycles 100% in mine. I bet if I actually used my .410 it would eat any 3" on #1.

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Too bad they don't have a 1.5 setting... :)

 

The #2 setting was a bit much on ejection but #1 was jamming and leaving spent cartridges in the barrel (not good). The gun is still fairly new so maybe it will loosen up after more rounds.

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Did some testing with my new 2.5" mag,

 

The Winchester Super Speed Xtra game loads (410 GAUGE/2.5"/1275 FPS/.5 OZ./6 SHOT) handled the #1 gas setting just fine.

 

2.5-winchester.jpg

 

 

The Estate High Velocity Hunting Loads (410 GAUGE/2.5"/1200 FPS/.5 OZ./6 SHOT/ didn't fare as well so had to switch to #2 gas setting.

 

2.5-estate.jpg

 

 

The Winchester shells weren't as accurate (the spread seemed a lot more than the Estate) but definitely had more punch.

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So, has anyone found a 10 rounder for the 2 1/2 shells? The 3" shells are a bit more expensive.

 

Nobody makes a 10rd magazine for 2 1/2" shells that I'm aware of. 3" shells aren't that much more. Besides, the good Russian ammo (read as "cheap") all goes in a 3" magazine.

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Okay, here is how it boils down for the available lengths of shells in the 410-shot cartridge:

 

2008-01-20_234913_Explanation_of_410_Length_of_Shells.GIF

 

 

 

 

@Turbo, I don't think all 3" ammo is exactly 3" no matter how you measure it. I have a picture of some various brands, (loaded on the left then fired on the right) and there is a lot of variance. I didn't have a fired hull for each type when I took the pic, but I think you can see a big difference between the green Remington hull and the others. For feeding purposes I think you definatly have to try each and see how it does.

post-33660-0-74731900-1307227221_thumb.jpg

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Here are some shells I have laying around. The federal PDs are the longest. They will not fit in the surefire.

I just got the winchester pdx's, silver bears and nobles. I had to use the 2 setting with the remington #6s. The Nobels were the cheapest and seem like the cheapest. Hope they cycle.

post-34699-0-28008300-1310701187_thumb.jpg

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Guys something fishy is going on.

 

I just bough more PDX1 and Federal personal Defenses.

 

Now its just the opposite.

 

Now I Can't get the PDX1 in the Surefire and now the Federals fit. Hmm.

 

There must be multiple versions.

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Guys something fishy is going on.

 

I just bough more PDX1 and Federal personal Defenses.

 

Now its just the opposite.

 

Now I Can't get the PDX1 in the Surefire and now the Federals fit. Hmm.

 

There must be multiple versions.

 

 

The #4 buck Federal rounds are longer than the 000 buck federal rounds, If that is your

situation. PDX have always fit for me, likewise the 000 but not the #4

Edited by bigdaddyhatty

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